The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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bbmic45
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bbmic45 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:21 pm

beach_terror wrote:Hyperbole aside, that post is generally wrong. If you have shit grades and a shit attitude, then yeah you're fucked. If a lot of you are in secondary markets like I am, a lot have changed hiring patterns and look later in the game. Get out there and get some attorneys invested in seeing you succeed.


I'd say the post is spot-on for at least half of the graduates of law schools nationwide for each of the past few years. Sure, networking, having a good attitude, etc. has its place, but there's only so much you can do with median grades at a TT or TTT these days. And since median or below median at a TT or TTT basically describes a huge chunk of law students, then yeah - generally that post is actually right.

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beach_terror
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby beach_terror » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:48 pm

bbmic45 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:Hyperbole aside, that post is generally wrong. If you have shit grades and a shit attitude, then yeah you're fucked. If a lot of you are in secondary markets like I am, a lot have changed hiring patterns and look later in the game. Get out there and get some attorneys invested in seeing you succeed.


I'd say the post is spot-on for at least half of the graduates of law schools nationwide for each of the past few years. Sure, networking, having a good attitude, etc. has its place, but there's only so much you can do with median grades at a TT or TTT these days. And since median or below median at a TT or TTT basically describes a huge chunk of law students, then yeah - generally that post is actually right.

Sorry, should have been clearer, I consider median at a TT/TTT to fall into that category.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:38 pm

lol @ dropping out being good advice for 3Ls who only have to pay for one more semester. You'd be reducing your monthly student loan payments by $50 (or $0 on IBR, more likely) so that, what, you can search for a shit paying job 5 months earlier while completely eliminating forever the possibility of small law, mid law, or gov't (which are all still hiring, albeit in tiny tiny numbers)?

If I wanted to spend time applying to work part time at Banana Republic, I don't have to wait to drop out to do it. Fits right in with my 3L schedule.

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20160810
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 20160810 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Like the guy above: it can be done. I'm at a T10, below median, and was no offered at my 2L firm. I got a job at V100 through sheer hustle and networking. You gotta be ruthless, though. Ask yourself if you're ruthless. Because if you're not you will likely end up unemployed if looking as a 3L and/or coming off a no offer. I'm happy to take PMs (if that works as someone writing as anonymous) but what I will tell you in private is no different than what I will say publicly:

(1) Work through all of your contacts;
(2) lean on anyone you can from your former employment (even the firm that dinged you);
(3) try to package yourself for whatever job comes through the pike;
(4) try to find people who are of the same undergrad AND law school combination -- they tend to be the most loyal IMO;
(5) Never give up. The "Job" that I accepted was never posted to the world.
(6) Work through professors, too. That's an edit. See which professors are "connected" to the legal community.

This is the first time I've ever heard #4, and it seems like really good advice. I went to pretty big public schools for both UG and LS, so the whole "Just reach out to alums" thing seems like it would be kinda awkward. "Oh, hey, we both went to Cal. Just you, me, and about 3 percent of California. Since we have so much in common, let's talk." definitely like the idea of looking for people with the same UG/LS combo.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:48 pm

Been trying the networking thing, and it can only go so far. Unfortunately worked in small govt depts that are not really connected and not in viable practice areas. Also a lot of attorneys are really busy keeping themselves afloat, esp when they are unable to add people to their own practice group whenever they want anymore. Knew almost half the people at one firm, and got rejected. The person who prolly did get the job prolly had less connections, but something else shined through even though he also likely came from a lower ranked school. And the UG/LS thing doesn't help me either as a fellow Cal alum, maybe if I had gone to a smaller private school where I would have racked up even more debt. Feel utterly hopeless that all the work I have done since striking out has been meaningless, regardless of all the time, money, and effort I spent trying to improve my chances by networking and becoming active in an industry, all in the end to end up on the school welfare program. In truth, I sometimes feel that the biggest mistake was not killing myself after striking out when I was at the bottom of a mental pit rather than have wasted so much time and money and other people's time, would have even be a positive for my law school since one less person it would have to bs for job stats.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In truth, I sometimes feel that the biggest mistake was not killing myself after striking out when I was at the bottom of a mental pit rather than have wasted so much time and money and other people's time, would have even be a positive for my law school since one less person it would have to bs for job stats.

Hey bud, I don't know you, but please, do not do this. Feel free to PM if you want someone to talk to. No judgment whatsoever. I'll be up for at least 4-5 hours.

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20160810
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 20160810 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:22 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In truth, I sometimes feel that the biggest mistake was not killing myself after striking out when I was at the bottom of a mental pit rather than have wasted so much time and money and other people's time, would have even be a positive for my law school since one less person it would have to bs for job stats.

Hey bud, I don't know you, but please, do not do this. Feel free to PM if you want someone to talk to. No judgment whatsoever. I'll be up for at least 4-5 hours.

Seriously. The worst case scenario for us is still pretty ok. Reach out to people--it sounds like you could use a friend as Much as a job.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:30 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In truth, I sometimes feel that the biggest mistake was not killing myself after striking out when I was at the bottom of a mental pit rather than have wasted so much time and money and other people's time, would have even be a positive for my law school since one less person it would have to bs for job stats.

Hey bud, I don't know you, but please, do not do this. Feel free to PM if you want someone to talk to. No judgment whatsoever. I'll be up for at least 4-5 hours.


+1

You are so much more than your legal job search, which is essentially arbitrary. Hang in there. Feel free to PM me also.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In truth, I sometimes feel that the biggest mistake was not killing myself after striking out when I was at the bottom of a mental pit rather than have wasted so much time and money and other people's time, would have even be a positive for my law school since one less person it would have to bs for job stats.


Dude (or dudette), you're talking about people who rejected you for the most random, arbitrary bullshit. It has absolutely nothing to do with your value as a person or anything that really matters.

So, jumping on the PM train, feel free to PM me as well.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:40 pm

I'm the 3L who was no offered and got a job. Happy to try to answer questions if they will be helpful to anyone here.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the 3L who was no offered and got a job. Happy to try to answer questions if they will be helpful to anyone here.

Plz tell your story

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:59 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the 3L who was no offered and got a job. Happy to try to answer questions if they will be helpful to anyone here.

Plz tell your story


I think I pretty much already have. What more would be helpful?

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the 3L who was no offered and got a job. Happy to try to answer questions if they will be helpful to anyone here.

Plz tell your story


I think I pretty much already have. What more would be helpful?

Oh the SAME 3L

Agent
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Agent » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:11 am

Sorry to hear this. I agree that it's important to remember not to take these rejections personally.

I would try to keep up the networking, remembering that it takes time. Also remember to adapt your networking strategy as (a) you learn what's ineffective and (b) circumstances change.

Anonymous User wrote:Been trying the networking thing, and it can only go so far. Unfortunately worked in small govt depts that are not really connected and not in viable practice areas. Also a lot of attorneys are really busy keeping themselves afloat, esp when they are unable to add people to their own practice group whenever they want anymore. Knew almost half the people at one firm, and got rejected. The person who prolly did get the job prolly had less connections, but something else shined through even though he also likely came from a lower ranked school. And the UG/LS thing doesn't help me either as a fellow Cal alum, maybe if I had gone to a smaller private school where I would have racked up even more debt. Feel utterly hopeless that all the work I have done since striking out has been meaningless, regardless of all the time, money, and effort I spent trying to improve my chances by networking and becoming active in an industry, all in the end to end up on the school welfare program. In truth, I sometimes feel that the biggest mistake was not killing myself after striking out when I was at the bottom of a mental pit rather than have wasted so much time and money and other people's time, would have even be a positive for my law school since one less person it would have to bs for job stats.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:51 am

Networking just helps increase chances of landing something. It is not a guarantee but a good thing to do. I know people on law journal who do not have jobs yet but some of them are not networking and I have to believe that hurts them. You never know when some contact you made might lead to some opportunity. I know it is a lot of effort but if you don't try, other than being lucky, you can expect the result everyone here is complaining about.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:34 am

I think networking gets a bit more difficult the further down you go. As a 1L I could ask to meet with any attorneys to talk about their practice area, throw in some questions about the legal market, ask about what classes I should take, joke around about the professors that are still around back from his/her day, etc. I think some of those become more difficult to discuss when you're a 3L or graduate.

With that said, networking, like anything else in the legal world, is all about luck. I have friends who got jobs at firms they wouldn't otherwise be invited for a screener to based on grades by emailing a partner, getting together for lunch, being friendly and looking interested and not directly asking for a job but saying something general indicating interest and letting the partner invite them in to interview. Your "informational interview" is more or less your screener. If they like you and have a spot available, there is a great chance they will invite you in to interview no matter the stats. With that said I have gone on MANY informational interviews that were basically a waste of both the people's time as well.

Just remember, you only need ONE offer and ONE job. Assuming you have at least decent stats, are intelligent and can keep a conversation and probably most importantly, are willing to put serious time and effort into it, networking at times can lead to good results.

windowcactus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby windowcactus » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:43 pm

I have a networking question. For informational interviews, does everyone setup face-to-face meetings? Does anyone setup phone interviews? I would prefer phone interviews because it takes up less time and you can reach out to more people, but it might be less likely to turn into an interview.

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beach_terror
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby beach_terror » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:55 pm

windowcactus wrote:I have a networking question. For informational interviews, does everyone setup face-to-face meetings? Does anyone setup phone interviews? I would prefer phone interviews because it takes up less time and you can reach out to more people, but it might be less likely to turn into an interview.

I typically mention both and let them pick what's more convenient for them.

$$$$$$
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby $$$$$$ » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:56 pm

windowcactus wrote:I have a networking question. For informational interviews, does everyone setup face-to-face meetings? Does anyone setup phone interviews? I would prefer phone interviews because it takes up less time and you can reach out to more people, but it might be less likely to turn into an interview.


Face to Face is the way to go, especially if you believe that you come across well in person. Phone intervies I find to be sort of awkward, especially when both people start talking at the same time or there are long pauses in the convo, but I have gotten callbacks from good phone informational interviews. I would say that out of the 10 callbacks I received (all of them from networking), about 8 were from face to face meetings with partners in transactional groups I was interested in. The others were phone interviews. My grades were so bad that I didn't receive one call back from OGI screeners.

Networking as a 3L is really really tough, becuase now everyone assumes you are looking for a job and that you werent good enough to get one (not desireable enough). I still recommend doing it though because you never know. If I was a 3L without a job now I would be doing these things:

(1) Really narrowing down what you want to do and trying to learn everything about that area; (2) Networking with alumni that work in that area; (3) Work on interviewing and good answers to hard questions (like why arent you employed); (4) School-work (doesnt freaking matter at this point)

I think #1 is the most important because even if you do not get something this year, you will start to actually learn practical knowledge that will make you hirable to someone down the line.

eeyore304
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby eeyore304 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:23 pm

Long time lurker, finally posting. They say misery loves company. Gotta say, this is the only place that has been therapeutic- just to know that I'm not the only one going through this.

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2LsAPlenty
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:48 pm

There are a lot of 3Ls without jobs. They just don't talk about it and many do not lurk on this site. It is simply depressing to think you have spent all this time and money and don't have a job lined up. The above poaster who said getting a job as a 3L is a difficult task is correct. Difficult, but not impossible by any means. It only feels that way because there are people who had summer associate positions which turned into jobs at the beginning of the semester. Leaving aside the T20, for second tier schools, it is a lot of people beyond the top 5-10% of their class. Most will have to pick up jobs between now and several months after the bar. Many will by the way. Small firms and some governmental agencies typically start looking in February or March and some wait until after the bar so they can have licensed candidates. Keep your head up!

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:20 pm

At what point do you pass from persistent to annoying when emailing a firm? My summer firm was supposed to meet on hiring after Labor Day, I never heard back so I emailed, was told it had been pushed back, so I waited a while and emailed again, same story. Finally, was told that hiring was on the agenda for the second week of November and I would hear back shortly thereafter.

Is it too soon to email with a "hi, remember me?" email? I've already pretty much written off the job at this point.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:36 pm

sat through a two hour interview today only to find out they are interviewing 50 people for maybe 1 spot, maybe 0 spots.

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20160810
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 20160810 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:54 pm

kalvano wrote:At what point do you pass from persistent to annoying when emailing a firm? My summer firm was supposed to meet on hiring after Labor Day, I never heard back so I emailed, was told it had been pushed back, so I waited a while and emailed again, same story. Finally, was told that hiring was on the agenda for the second week of November and I would hear back shortly thereafter.

Is it too soon to email with a "hi, remember me?" email? I've already pretty much written off the job at this point.

I hate to say it dude, but at this point it's time to start full-on job hunting, and if they give you a call in the next couple weeks, call it a pleasant surprise. If they were serious about this it wouldn't have taken them until now.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:31 pm

SBL wrote:
kalvano wrote:At what point do you pass from persistent to annoying when emailing a firm? My summer firm was supposed to meet on hiring after Labor Day, I never heard back so I emailed, was told it had been pushed back, so I waited a while and emailed again, same story. Finally, was told that hiring was on the agenda for the second week of November and I would hear back shortly thereafter.

Is it too soon to email with a "hi, remember me?" email? I've already pretty much written off the job at this point.

I hate to say it dude, but at this point it's time to start full-on job hunting, and if they give you a call in the next couple weeks, call it a pleasant surprise. If they were serious about this it wouldn't have taken them until now.


In fairness, there's just a gigantic amount of uncertainty in the world right now. Is Europe going to implode? Will we fail to have a deal that averts the fiscal cliff? A firm wanting more time to think over offers could reflect that as much as anything else. It's obviously not a good sign, though, and definitely proof that you should be pretty damn committed to the job search process.




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