The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:43 am

Cyne wrote:Yo bros, I'm leaving the Vale.

What a fucking ride. Had an SA lined up that tanked like two months before summer. Lined up two unpaid internships. One of them became a jerb. Small firm paying market (da fuq didn't know that could happen).

Quick story in case it helps others. T50, 25%, no LR. Lol fucked right? I thought so. I somehow scrounged up that one SA position through sheer hustle. When I lost it I thought I saw the last chapter in the book called My Life. I worked my ass off in both firms I worked for over the summer. Luckily, I am pretty good with people, and proved early on I could generate business. That is what saved me. I would say I spend about 60 hours a week working over the summer, and another 20 trying to bring in business (without them asking). When I started, it was made clear to me there was no room for a new employee.

This thread is by far and large the best thread on TLS. All of your stories kept me motivated to push harder. Thank you so much. Special thanks to Rad, NYState, etc (long-timers in this thread). Ya'll friggin rock hard. You continue to post here to help others out, and I could not be more grateful. It certainly helped me.

To those still struggling, keep pushing. This is likely one of the worst times in your life (it was for me). I have gone through a lot of BS and tragedy in my life, but being in the Vale began to seriously screw with my health and mental well being. I had to regulate my mental health for the first time in my life. You can make it. This market blows donkey balls, but it only takes one offer. Best of luck, and I'll post any open positions I see crop up.

Dude this is a really good story

Thanks for sharin brother

Glad to hear about what seems like a rad opportunity; hope you're celebrating as we speak

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:24 am

Vale: I was offered an Of Counsel position with a decent sized firm in town. Obviously not ideal, but has anyone taken such an offer or known someone who has taken such an offer? Steady client flow in a field I'm interested in, name goes on the letterhead (with "Of Counsel," obviously), and I essentially make my own schedule and keep what I bring in. There is a fee for the "opportunity," but it's very reasonable considering I'll have an office, assistant, print/fax/email, a runner, and immediate access to clients. I was entertaining the thought of solo practice. I have access to an office that I'd only have to pay utilities on, and this seems like a much better option given the client flow.

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iceman219
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby iceman219 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:10 am

Void wrote:Every "salary negotiation" I've heard of for entry level legal work goes something like this:

Employer: "the salary is $X."
Applicant: "wow, great!"


This. I tried negotiating for my in-house offer, and it was pretty much "I don't have the authority/that would be beyond the budgeted amount." My view on the salary # is if they want to have you around 3 years down the road, they will be fair or they run the risk of you getting wandering eyes fast.

ALSO, interesting/positive story. As mentioned before, I had an in-house offer a few weeks back to leave the Vale. However, HR was slow as molasses. And right before they even verbally offered me, I had called back my SA + a few other serious firms and let them know that things were moving fast, I was still really interested in them, etc etc.

Well, after almost 3 weeks of waiting for the official offer letter, the same day in-house HR finally emails me an official offer letter, my SA calls me and says we have a position, would you be interested? I said sure, let's talk (not mentioning the other offer). Phone interview by the attorney the next day (yesterday), 4pm call from HR same day with an offer. At the firm I wanted, in the city I wanted, doing just about what I set out to do when I first went to law school. Salary offer was the same sort of one as the in-house too.

I offer this story not to brag (tho I am still very excited) but as an example of shit can click fast (apparently I'm starting on Monday). Also, if you really do like a specific firm and they are being wishy washy, tell them point blank "you're the firm I want to be with;" this firm knew this all along, and I even had letterhead-level partners taking up my case in the regular partners meeting at the firm after I stayed in touch with them post-SA. The HR person also told me that this was originally a 1-2 year experience type of job, but the partner wanted to train and HR immediately thought of me when the position was brought up for hire.

So keep at it, network your existing network, and stay in touch with your existing network. And don't be afraid to take a risk or two

NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 am

iceman219 wrote:
Void wrote:Every "salary negotiation" I've heard of for entry level legal work goes something like this:

Employer: "the salary is $X."
Applicant: "wow, great!"


This. I tried negotiating for my in-house offer, and it was pretty much "I don't have the authority/that would be beyond the budgeted amount." My view on the salary # is if they want to have you around 3 years down the road, they will be fair or they run the risk of you getting wandering eyes fast.

ALSO, interesting/positive story. As mentioned before, I had an in-house offer a few weeks back to leave the Vale. However, HR was slow as molasses. And right before they even verbally offered me, I had called back my SA + a few other serious firms and let them know that things were moving fast, I was still really interested in them, etc etc.

Well, after almost 3 weeks of waiting for the official offer letter, the same day in-house HR finally emails me an official offer letter, my SA calls me and says we have a position, would you be interested? I said sure, let's talk (not mentioning the other offer). Phone interview by the attorney the next day (yesterday), 4pm call from HR same day with an offer. At the firm I wanted, in the city I wanted, doing just about what I set out to do when I first went to law school. Salary offer was the same sort of one as the in-house too.

I offer this story not to brag (tho I am still very excited) but as an example of shit can click fast (apparently I'm starting on Monday). Also, if you really do like a specific firm and they are being wishy washy, tell them point blank "you're the firm I want to be with;" this firm knew this all along, and I even had letterhead-level partners taking up my case in the regular partners meeting at the firm after I stayed in touch with them post-SA. The HR person also told me that this was originally a 1-2 year experience type of job, but the partner wanted to train and HR immediately thought of me when the position was brought up for hire.

So keep at it, network your existing network, and stay in touch with your existing network. And don't be afraid to take a risk or two


Congrats!

Hiring can seem like a high school prom- getting one offer makes you look better to the others. Doesn't make sense but that's the way it works.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:56 am

Anyone in Dallas? I know of an opportunity or two that aren't great, but something. PM me.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:55 pm

What exactly is a staff attorney at large firms? One partner's personal step and fetch-it person?

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:24 pm

kalvano wrote:What exactly is a staff attorney at large firms? One partner's personal step and fetch-it person?



My understanding is that staff attorneys do more than just doc review (e.g. research and draft) but they're not a partner-track associate. As such, staff attorneys get paid more than doc rev and less than associates. However, some staff attorneys are nothing more than doc reviewers by a different name.

Old article: http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/11/busin ... -tier.html

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:55 pm

My credit score has plummeted from solid 750 to 684 due to my pretty much almost maxing out every card I have. lol. Thank you law skool.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:19 pm

Bikeflip wrote:
kalvano wrote:What exactly is a staff attorney at large firms? One partner's personal step and fetch-it person?



My understanding is that staff attorneys do more than just doc review (e.g. research and draft) but they're not a partner-track associate. As such, staff attorneys get paid more than doc rev and less than associates. However, some staff attorneys are nothing more than doc reviewers by a different name.

Old article: http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/11/busin ... -tier.html


A lot of them do the drudgery that first year associates used to have to do before the firms started cost cutting. I know for real estate, the staff attorneys will be the ones doing the title searches and surveys, but won't really do any of the actual transaction related work.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My credit score has plummeted from solid 750 to 684 due to my pretty much almost maxing out every card I have. lol. Thank you law skool.


Mine tanked like that when I started law school too, but I'm up to about 15 points below where I started.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:27 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My credit score has plummeted from solid 750 to 684 due to my pretty much almost maxing out every card I have. lol. Thank you law skool.


Mine tanked like that when I started law school too, but I'm up to about 15 points below where I started.


How did yours tank when you began law school? Shouldn't you have had your loan money to pay off your credit card then?

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:
kalvano wrote:What exactly is a staff attorney at large firms? One partner's personal step and fetch-it person?



My understanding is that staff attorneys do more than just doc review (e.g. research and draft) but they're not a partner-track associate. As such, staff attorneys get paid more than doc rev and less than associates. However, some staff attorneys are nothing more than doc reviewers by a different name.

Old article: http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/11/busin ... -tier.html


A lot of them do the drudgery that first year associates used to have to do before the firms started cost cutting. I know for real estate, the staff attorneys will be the ones doing the title searches and surveys, but won't really do any of the actual transaction related work.


Anyone knows how someone goes about getting these jerbs?
Is there a good searchable database? Do I go to each firm's website and hope for a posting. Considering how bad the legal market is, I feel as if there is little information about getting these jerbs...

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Bikeflip
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:
kalvano wrote:What exactly is a staff attorney at large firms? One partner's personal step and fetch-it person?



My understanding is that staff attorneys do more than just doc review (e.g. research and draft) but they're not a partner-track associate. As such, staff attorneys get paid more than doc rev and less than associates. However, some staff attorneys are nothing more than doc reviewers by a different name.

Old article: http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/11/busin ... -tier.html


A lot of them do the drudgery that first year associates used to have to do before the firms started cost cutting. I know for real estate, the staff attorneys will be the ones doing the title searches and surveys, but won't really do any of the actual transaction related work.


Good to know. I still feel the term is fairly loosely defined, which is probably why a few of us are spinning our wheels about the concept.


Anonymous User wrote:Anyone knows how someone goes about getting these jerbs?
Is there a good searchable database? Do I go to each firm's website and hope for a posting. Considering how bad the legal market is, I feel as if there is little information about getting these jerbs...




From teh googs: --LinkRemoved--

http://www.paulweiss.com/careers/legal- ... rneys.aspx

http://www.wilmerhalecareers.com/lawyer ... _attorney/

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BlueLotus
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:04 pm


Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:13 pm

Heads up re: Bingham McCutcheon--even if you're desperate I'd recommend not looking at the Lexington jobs. They're all admin and I know a number of people who have interviewed there and expressly been told "you will not ever be an attorney with BM and there is no advancement there." Just FYI.

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mr. wednesday
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:50 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Dafuq is this this shitboomery?
http://kevin.lexblog.com/2012/02/29/nev ... get-a-job/
:evil:

lol just network on twitter and you'll have a job

Gorki
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gorki » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:19 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Dafuq is this this shitboomery?
http://kevin.lexblog.com/2012/02/29/nev ... get-a-job/
:evil:


In their defense though the article is February 2012... We were all start of 2nd semester 1Ls then... The market, at least at that point, was still called "ITE" now its "new normal."

EDIT: Wow, nevermind. Yeah I think that is a troll post. "Knock on the door of the firm" what the fuck? Does he mean awkwardly arrive on one of the floors of the firm's airlot and sit around? People have done this for non-legal jobs at the company I am at, and it is just really fucking awkward and the person is essentially added to a list wherein they are not allowed into the actual office... that shit is pure creepy.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby newyorker88 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:35 pm

Gorki wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Dafuq is this this shitboomery?
http://kevin.lexblog.com/2012/02/29/nev ... get-a-job/
:evil:


In their defense though the article is February 2012... We were all start of 2nd semester 1Ls then... The market, at least at that point, was still called "ITE" now its "new normal."

EDIT: Wow, nevermind. Yeah I think that is a troll post. "Knock on the door of the firm" what the fuck? Does he mean awkwardly arrive on one of the floors of the firm's airlot and sit around? People have done this for non-legal jobs at the company I am at, and it is just really fucking awkward and the person is essentially added to a list wherein they are not allowed into the actual office... that shit is pure creepy.


A lot of firms are in buildings that have security. You can't even get in without swiping a card or having an appointment.

adonai
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby adonai » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:41 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Dafuq is this this shitboomery?
http://kevin.lexblog.com/2012/02/29/nev ... get-a-job/
:evil:

Reading this genuinely made me angry.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:45 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
Gorki wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Dafuq is this this shitboomery?
http://kevin.lexblog.com/2012/02/29/nev ... get-a-job/
:evil:


In their defense though the article is February 2012... We were all start of 2nd semester 1Ls then... The market, at least at that point, was still called "ITE" now its "new normal."

EDIT: Wow, nevermind. Yeah I think that is a troll post. "Knock on the door of the firm" what the fuck? Does he mean awkwardly arrive on one of the floors of the firm's airlot and sit around? People have done this for non-legal jobs at the company I am at, and it is just really fucking awkward and the person is essentially added to a list wherein they are not allowed into the actual office... that shit is pure creepy.


A lot of firms are in buildings that have security. You can't even get in without swiping a card or having an appointment.

I had a good lol at that article back when it first came out

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Danger Zone
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Danger Zone » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:50 pm

This is more likely to get you a restraining order than a job.

When the partners tell you they have nothing for you, but they are impressed by your ambition (no one will have done this to them before), go back again and again – about every 2 to 3 weeks. It took me to the third visit to the firm which hired me to get a ‘buy signal.’ It took 5 visits to get a job.

Cyne
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Cyne » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:01 pm

MSPeast wrote:Does 25% mean top 25% or bottom 25%?


Anonymous User wrote:First things first: Major congrats on the jerb!

Also, I hope this is not a dumb question, but how did you manage to bring in business as a law student?


25% meant top.

Thank you for the gratz. Not a dumb question. I looked at our practice areas and got involved in certain groups, businesses, and organizations where their potential clients would frequent. I would get to know a group of people for about a month on a personal level. I would also frequent certain small businesses frequently and made myself known as a consistent customer. This gave me the opportunity to have a lot of conversations, and eventually people complain about their problems. If it fit with what our firm did, I would make the reference. I also made it a point to be around people I genuinely liked, that really smoothed things over.

By no means was it substantial business. My method took a lot of time and money. But it demonstrated the fundamental ability.

I am celebrating with a summer shandy right now. So good :).

Gratz to iceman on the jerb! Good to hear.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:10 pm

Cyne wrote:Gratz to iceman on the jerb! Good to hear.

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a male human
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:38 am

Hmmm, I got an offer to work 20 hrs/wk @ $15/hr at a small company, but I deferred the starting date since I might have another interview coming up soon.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:51 am

a male human wrote:Hmmm, I got an offer to work 20 hrs/wk @ $15/hr at a small company, but I deferred the starting date since I might have another interview coming up soon.


Seems like the perfect set up. You get money and still have time to interview at law jobs.




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