The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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lolwat
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lolwat » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:01 pm

Hey guys, question for you. When you're contacting potential employers these days, what does your e-mail signature look like?

During law school, mine was something like . . .

TTH
J.D. Candidate, 2013
Preftigious Law Review Position
Law School
Phone Number

I don't really know what else to put other than my name and phone number these days, which looks sparse. Thoughts?


My e-mail signature is just:

lolwat
phone num
email add

This is true regardless of whether I'm sending an application/recruiting inquiry or just responding to the first couple e-mails. Once I feel slightly more comfortable, and depending on the person, I drop the phone number and email address and just sign with my name. No one's ever mentioned anything negative about it.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:49 pm

My signature is simply:

Name
School and "bar results pending" so they know I took it
Phone
Email


Awful interview this morning, call for a second interview with the firm from a couple weeks ago. Does that balance out into nothing?

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:07 pm

kalvano wrote:My signature is simply:

Name
School and "bar results pending" so they know I took it
Phone
Email


Awful interview this morning, call for a second interview with the firm from a couple weeks ago. Does that balance out into nothing?

Second interviews tend to be a bigger deal, so I say net gain. What made the interview today to crappy? And what's the 2nd interview for?

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:34 pm

iwakeboard wrote:Checking in on the Vale.


Leave now

02122015
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 02122015 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:54 pm

Why would you put your e-mail address in your e-mail signature? Isn't it obvious from the top of the message?

I mean, I suppose I could see boomers struggling with that, but it just seems redundant to me.

Mine is the same as this, although once I'm admitted I might consider adding my state of admission to it.
a male human wrote:Currently:

Name
J.D., 2013, School
Phone

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Lasers
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lasers » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:58 pm

MSPeast wrote:Why would you put your e-mail address in your e-mail signature? Isn't it obvious from the top of the message?

I mean, I suppose I could see boomers struggling with that, but it just seems redundant to me.

Mine is the same as this, although once I'm admitted I might consider adding my state of admission to it.
a male human wrote:Currently:

Name
J.D., 2013, School
Phone

really, the signature is just a formality. there's no need for an email address if you're sending an email, your phone number is already on your resume (which they WILL look at before even considering ever contacting you), and your school should probably already be stated in the body of the email.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:17 pm

rad lulz wrote:
kalvano wrote:My signature is simply:

Name
School and "bar results pending" so they know I took it
Phone
Email


Awful interview this morning, call for a second interview with the firm from a couple weeks ago. Does that balance out into nothing?

Second interviews tend to be a bigger deal, so I say net gain. What made the interview today to crappy? And what's the 2nd interview for?


I just don't think it went well. Weird questions and not a good vibe. Second interview for a small local firm. I liked the guys that run it, so it's my first choice.

sparty99
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:19 pm

kalvano wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
kalvano wrote:My signature is simply:

Name
School and "bar results pending" so they know I took it
Phone
Email


Awful interview this morning, call for a second interview with the firm from a couple weeks ago. Does that balance out into nothing?

Second interviews tend to be a bigger deal, so I say net gain. What made the interview today to crappy? And what's the 2nd interview for?


I just don't think it went well. Weird questions and not a good vibe. Second interview for a small local firm. I liked the guys that run it, so it's my first choice.


it happens

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:32 pm

It does indeed.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:21 pm

Long term lurker of this thread. It was reassuring to know that I wasn't the only on without a job. It was even more reassuring to know there was still hope after I saw other people's stories about finding employment. I finally found a job, and feel very fortunate. If anyone is even remotely as depressed as I was at time, keep sending out resumes and making contacts. Things will work out. I ended up joining a mid-size firm (125 attorneys) as a one-off addition to the firm (not through their summer program). I sent out tons of emails to alumni from my law school (T-25, middle of class, journal), met with people for coffee/lunch, and finally had a break through with someone with strong pull within the firm.

Bottom line, there's still hope. Stay persistent, positive, and on top of your game. Send emails, make calls, and meet with people in person. I found other schools' symplicity pages to be extremely helpful, as I live and took the bar in a different state than my law school. Good luck everyone. Cheers!

NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Long term lurker of this thread. It was reassuring to know that I wasn't the only on without a job. It was even more reassuring to know there was still hope after I saw other people's stories about finding employment. I finally found a job, and feel very fortunate. If anyone is even remotely as depressed as I was at time, keep sending out resumes and making contacts. Things will work out. I ended up joining a mid-size firm (125 attorneys) as a one-off addition to the firm (not through their summer program). I sent out tons of emails to alumni from my law school (T-25, middle of class, journal), met with people for coffee/lunch, and finally had a break through with someone with strong pull within the firm.

Bottom line, there's still hope. Stay persistent, positive, and on top of your game. Send emails, make calls, and meet with people in person. I found other schools' symplicity pages to be extremely helpful, as I live and took the bar in a different state than my law school. Good luck everyone. Cheers!

Congrats!! Good luck with your new job!!

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:36 pm

Is it just me or is the pathetic market for 3Ls even more pathetic this year. Last year, I remember seeing posts on simplicity, and there was some thread about "if you know anybody hiring 3Ls, post here."
Is this year just pathetic, or is it still early?

Not that I am counting on it... at this point I would take anything... but it was nice seeing that thread last year.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:32 pm

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Long term lurker of this thread. It was reassuring to know that I wasn't the only on without a job. It was even more reassuring to know there was still hope after I saw other people's stories about finding employment. I finally found a job, and feel very fortunate. If anyone is even remotely as depressed as I was at time, keep sending out resumes and making contacts. Things will work out. I ended up joining a mid-size firm (125 attorneys) as a one-off addition to the firm (not through their summer program). I sent out tons of emails to alumni from my law school (T-25, middle of class, journal), met with people for coffee/lunch, and finally had a break through with someone with strong pull within the firm.

Bottom line, there's still hope. Stay persistent, positive, and on top of your game. Send emails, make calls, and meet with people in person. I found other schools' symplicity pages to be extremely helpful, as I live and took the bar in a different state than my law school. Good luck everyone. Cheers!

Congrats!! Good luck with your new job!!

Tcr

Gl gf my anon bro

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is it just me or is the pathetic market for 3Ls even more pathetic this year. Last year, I remember seeing posts on simplicity, and there was some thread about "if you know anybody hiring 3Ls, post here."
Is this year just pathetic, or is it still early?

Not that I am counting on it... at this point I would take anything... but it was nice seeing that thread last year.

Seriously, I was thinking this the other day as well. I remember more postings later in the year last year, but at this time frame a year ago, there were certainly more 3L opportunities than there are now. My symplicity has been DEAD.

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a male human
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:57 pm

RIP legal market

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JCougar
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:28 pm

Put this in perspective guys and gals. ~10% of law students get biglaw jobs from OCI/mass mailing. Another percentage point or two get agency/PI jobs from OCI.

While 45% don't find anything by 9 months after graduation, there's still over 40% (four times the OCI number) that get something after 3L OCI but before 9 months out. Those 40% have to scrap and claw their way into jobs they get (unless they have small law family connections, etc.). But they get them.

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TTH
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:35 pm

iwakeboard wrote:Checking in on the Vale.


Sorry bro. Welcome.

You still got your day job though, right?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:29 pm

Hi all in the Vale,

I could use some help and redirection. I have lurked and posted here occasionally. I am a May 2013 grad of a strong top-30ish regional school. During 2L OCI I did not hustle enough, struck out, and worked at a small firm 2L summer where I got good experience but did not anticipate (or want) an offer - strictly an intern. During 3L I got strong plaintiff-side civil litigation experience. I have both a strong secondary journal and moot court on my resume. I was in the top 1/3 of my class all through 2L but slipped just outside of it during 3L thanks to some poor class choices (I hate you, Tax) and focusing too much on my clinic. I worked on taking classes and getting experience in a particular area of law, and applying to midsize and big firms within that practice area, but never even got an interview nibble. I also applied for public interest fellowships and fed gov't, to no avail.

During fall of 3L I applied to everything on Symplicity, sent hundreds of mass mails, and made some awkward stabs at networking. Since winter of 3L I've just focused on applying to jobs on Symplicity for which I am qualified or are a slight reach. After a long dry spell I have had three interviews since mid-July and am still waiting to hear back from one job that I would love to get and for which I did a final round interview. It's an in-house gig and I really liked what I learned about it. But I just have a bad feeling about it. I got these jobs through applying on Symplicity. Good news is that I passed the bar and am getting sworn in soon.

I am doing doc review 40+ hours a week semi long term, which gives me a little breathing room to focus on finding a job I want, but I am also finding it really hard to put the effort in when working full time. It's hard to figure out how to best use my time. I am also a little flummoxed because 2 out of 3 interviews I got were for jobs for which my resume was NOT very tailored. I've also met with some attorneys about getting involved with nonprofits/public interest-ey things, not for immediate job prospects but just to do something that feels worthwhile and keep the public interest door open down the road. PI/gov hiring are just terrible in my state right now.

I would either like to work in-house at a small company, which my resume does not speak to very well but for which I have some helpful pre-law-school work experience, or work at a small firm that has something going for it. Eg, a Superlawyer plaintiff-side partner, a mix of practice areas that are not just traffic/Workers' Comp/slip and falls. Family law, bigger med mal cases, good quality plaintiff side employment law, etc. cases. I would LOVE to do any gov't work and am more open to (eg, would love to do) nonprofit work than I was a year ago.

So what do I do? I can plausibly tailor my resume toward general civil litigation, family law, employment law, both legal and non-legal nonprofit work, and government work. I have four or five attorneys locally who like me, are happy to meet for coffee and serve as a reference, etc. But it feels awkward to just meet for coffee, ask general career questions, and act plucky and enthusiastic about the job search. They all know I need a job. Do I try and reconnect with those attorneys, when it hasn't led to anything so far? Do I cold e-mail alumni from my school? What does a post-bar mass mail look like? :( Or is my strategy of just keeping an eye on job boards enough? It's all that's yielded anything so far, but it feels like it could be months before I get a job.

The flip side of this is that as much as I hate doc review, between that and another freelance (non-legal) job I'm clearing 45-50k a year. I also have health insurance for a reasonable rate through a spouse. The doc review is really flexible, so I can meet with attorneys, do pro bono work, etc. a bit each week. So I'm not quite willing to leave my current situation for a job that pays the same amount or less and feels like it has little growth potential, such as working for a solo attorney on tiny cases where I won't be doing anything more complex than what I did with clients during 3L. At this point my priorities are 55k+ a year with bennies (and a lot of small firms pay 40k around here), people I like, and growth potential more than any specific practice area. I've honestly liked almost everything legal I've done from real estate to family law and just don't have a strong preference as long as the work is dynamic and the people around me are good. It's a good and bad place to be.

I am also in a semi-rural area but could plausibly waive into DC (family living there) and look for jobs there.

Someone please give me a reasonable game plan. I've applied for a couple jobs each week that are actually hiring and for which I seem somewhat qualified but it just doesn't feel like enough.

Should I send a nice short paper resume and cover letter to small firms that are desirable to me (what one local attorney recommended) or take the thinly disguised informational interview approach at this point?

I know I'm lucky to have an income and health insurance right now and be getting interviews at all, but I am just as sick to my stomach and stressed and down as all of you. I really like being a lawyer but this has been hell. Any advice appreciated. I feel like I had a pretty good strategy/hustle through 3L but just ran out of steam because it led nowhere.

lolwat
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lolwat » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:39 am

Someone please give me a reasonable game plan. I've applied for a couple jobs each week that are actually hiring and for which I seem somewhat qualified but it just doesn't feel like enough.

Should I send a nice short paper resume and cover letter to small firms that are desirable to me (what one local attorney recommended) or take the thinly disguised informational interview approach at this point?


Do both. Mass mail every firm you're interested in working at, regardless of whether they have any open positions listed. That's where I've had the most luck. In fact, I can't remember the last time I applied for an "open position" and got an interview out of it... Now that I think about it, yeah, it's very possible that 100% of my interviews have come from sending general applications/recruiting inquiries over to firms. I've emailed firms that don't have recruiting sections on their websites by just emailing the hiring/managing partner, or even just a named partner if I can't figure out who the hiring or managing partner(s) are.

Most firms (and partners) will give you an answer, and most of those answers will be something along the effect of "we're not hiring (right now/in the near future)." But hustle enough and there should be some firms willing to talk to you.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:57 am

.
Last edited by Myself on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:My family, and how devastated they would be from my suicide, is pretty much the only thing keeping me alive at this point. I'm living for them, not for myself. :|

I keep on thinking what could I have done differently in the past so that I wouldn't have gotten into this mess? (besides, you know, not going to law school in the first place!) These nagging "what if's" just can't leave me the fuck alone.




You couldn't have described what i'm going though any better...

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iwakeboard
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby iwakeboard » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:26 am

TTH wrote:
iwakeboard wrote:Checking in on the Vale.


Sorry bro. Welcome.

You still got your day job though, right?


Yea, I still have my job that I've had since graduating from UG.

sparty99 wrote:
iwakeboard wrote:Checking in on the Vale.


Leave now


Get fucked. I'd rather not.

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TTH
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all in the Vale,

I could use some help and redirection. I have lurked and posted here occasionally.

[wall of text]


Hey bro, I hate to say it, but I think you're doing almost everything you can do. My vale experience has led me to believe that explicit networking for jobs as a 3L/JD is near worthless if the networking is not based on pre-existing contacts you had. In other words, I wouldn't sweat cold mailing or informational interviews that hard. Beyond that, here are some other thoughts.

1. You're really fortunate to have an income while you're trying to figure shit out. You say between the two jobs, you're clearing around 50K. How much does the non-legal job pay? Could you survive on that and your spouse's income if you quit doc review and did a near-full time volunteer gig for the experience? (i.e., SA-USA)

2. I think you're on the right track trying to volunteer on pro bono and what not. For one, you're developing skills and two, you're meeting attorneys through that.

3. Top 35% at a T30-40 doesn't open a ton of doors, but one thing you may want to do is check with your state trial and intermediate appellate courts for clerkships/staff attorney positions. They aren't as lockstep with hiring or requirements as federal clerkships, and if you went to law school near where you live, maybe a judge is an alum.

4. If you're going to do info interviews and shit, consider asking local judges if they would sit down with you. For one, every attorney you ask for an informational interview knows that you're really asking for a job, and they are bringing that into your conversation with them. Since there's not much of a chance for a employment with a court the same way, you may get a better conversation with a judge. If you can find a local Judge or two who likes you and will be your informal rabbi, then that can open doors for you. My 3L year, I really went out of my way to get to know a federal judge in town, and while it hasn't resulted in a job for me, I've gotten interviews that I probably wouldn't have got otherwise.

5. Keep checking job boards. Apps through jobs actually posted have such a higher rate of return than mass mailing. Set up job alerts for USAJOBS (the series number for attorney is 0905), your state government's job board if it has one, your state's bar association, etc. Apply for everything you're close to, including jobs looking for 1-2 years experience. You can always try to spin your clinic/intern experience as "experience," and besides, the worse they can do is say no.

6. You mentioned waiving into DC, so I'm going to go ahead and mention a half-court shot: if you live in Virginia, consider getting involved in the MacAuliffe campaign as a volunteer or even a paid field organizer. Also, consider getting involved in the Viginia Attorney General race. Working for the Democratic nominee in either race is going to be a great way to meet the movers and shakers among the plaintiff's bar.

7. Good luck and godspeed. Keep us posted, brother.

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TTH
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:28 pm

sparty99 wrote:
iwakeboard wrote:Checking in on the Vale.


Leave now


There's really no place for this here.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:56 pm

TTH wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
iwakeboard wrote:Checking in on the Vale.


Leave now


There's really no place for this here.


+1




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