The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:04 pm

TTH wrote:Hey Bros, got a question.

I want to apply to a couple of newly-elected Judges for DAT STATE CLERKSHIP, but I really don't have any clue about who I should ask for letter of recommendation as far as faculty goes, given that I have really not cultivated relationships with profs at all (will have at least one or two practitioner letters). Here are the options that immediately come to mind:

1. 1L Professor who called on me a lot in class, likes me personally, but I only had her for one class and got a B+.
2. Legal writing professor who probably doesn't remember, but I booked the class.
3. Federal Judge whose class I'm taking right now, will probably get an A, and who seems to like me, but it will be at least Jan/Feb before I know my grade. Also not sure if one, non-doctrinal class, is a good basis for letter.


Do any of your professors have a good rep for really going above and beyond for students applying to jobs? If any of your options are that person, take them regardless of other factors listed. I got a really strong letter from a 1L professor who I had essentially no out of class contact with after she met with me, asked a billion questions, etc. (not that it's helped). She's even sent follow up emails and calls to jobs I'm applying to.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Had an interview with the PD office today. I thought it went pretty well considering that I haven't worked in a street crimes criminal defense capacity since college and worked in biglaw 2L summer. Good thing I took all those crim classes just because I thought they were interesting.

3L interviewing is like wearing many hats. During 2L when you interviewed at firms you could be wishy washy and say "Oh yeah I am interested in lit, but I want to try some corporate just to see if I like it." 3L jobs the positions are really specific. I basically just try to twist fragments of experience on my resume into whatever I think they want to see. It's like I'm working spin for a political campaign.

"Senator Jones wasn't putting his penis in an alleged 'glory hole' on that occasion, he merely though that the hole in the wall was a urinal, like in porta-pottys at concerts."

This anon again. Had a surprise interview with IRS Honors. I've been working in a field office, so it was my supervisors who did the interview. It was pretty easy. Had to put on my tax hat, which is always interesting. Damn I really hope the IRS works out, but who the hell knows how much hiring they're gonna do. Hopefully more now that Obama is elected and healthcare is gonna go forward or whatever.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Had an interview with the PD office today. I thought it went pretty well considering that I haven't worked in a street crimes criminal defense capacity since college and worked in biglaw 2L summer. Good thing I took all those crim classes just because I thought they were interesting.

3L interviewing is like wearing many hats. During 2L when you interviewed at firms you could be wishy washy and say "Oh yeah I am interested in lit, but I want to try some corporate just to see if I like it." 3L jobs the positions are really specific. I basically just try to twist fragments of experience on my resume into whatever I think they want to see. It's like I'm working spin for a political campaign.

"Senator Jones wasn't putting his penis in an alleged 'glory hole' on that occasion, he merely though that the hole in the wall was a urinal, like in porta-pottys at concerts."

This anon again. Had a surprise interview with IRS Honors. I've been working in a field office, so it was my supervisors who did the interview. It was pretty easy. Had to put on my tax hat, which is always interesting. Damn I really hope the IRS works out, but who the hell knows how much hiring they're gonna do. Hopefully more now that Obama is elected and healthcare is gonna go forward or whatever.

3Ls working for the government. OBAMA'S AMERICA

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Had an interview with the PD office today. I thought it went pretty well considering that I haven't worked in a street crimes criminal defense capacity since college and worked in biglaw 2L summer. Good thing I took all those crim classes just because I thought they were interesting.

3L interviewing is like wearing many hats. During 2L when you interviewed at firms you could be wishy washy and say "Oh yeah I am interested in lit, but I want to try some corporate just to see if I like it." 3L jobs the positions are really specific. I basically just try to twist fragments of experience on my resume into whatever I think they want to see. It's like I'm working spin for a political campaign.

"Senator Jones wasn't putting his penis in an alleged 'glory hole' on that occasion, he merely though that the hole in the wall was a urinal, like in porta-pottys at concerts."

This anon again. Had a surprise interview with IRS Honors. I've been working in a field office, so it was my supervisors who did the interview. It was pretty easy. Had to put on my tax hat, which is always interesting. Damn I really hope the IRS works out, but who the hell knows how much hiring they're gonna do. Hopefully more now that Obama is elected and healthcare is gonna go forward or whatever.

3Ls working for the government. OBAMA'S AMERICA

I voted Romney for private sector growth, but right now all I want is OBAMA'S AMERICA ERRDAY. Need Obama to give me a job soooo bad.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Had an interview with the PD office today. I thought it went pretty well considering that I haven't worked in a street crimes criminal defense capacity since college and worked in biglaw 2L summer. Good thing I took all those crim classes just because I thought they were interesting.

3L interviewing is like wearing many hats. During 2L when you interviewed at firms you could be wishy washy and say "Oh yeah I am interested in lit, but I want to try some corporate just to see if I like it." 3L jobs the positions are really specific. I basically just try to twist fragments of experience on my resume into whatever I think they want to see. It's like I'm working spin for a political campaign.

"Senator Jones wasn't putting his penis in an alleged 'glory hole' on that occasion, he merely though that the hole in the wall was a urinal, like in porta-pottys at concerts."

This anon again. Had a surprise interview with IRS Honors. I've been working in a field office, so it was my supervisors who did the interview. It was pretty easy. Had to put on my tax hat, which is always interesting. Damn I really hope the IRS works out, but who the hell knows how much hiring they're gonna do. Hopefully more now that Obama is elected and healthcare is gonna go forward or whatever.

Also for all you no-offered folks out there I'll just say that that happened to me and no one from government has asked me about it. So take heart.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:41 pm

I'm losing hope. Just got rejected from a firm that is heavily involved in an industry that I have spent significant expense, time, and effort becoming known and networking in, and it apparently has all been for fucking nothing. Pretty much know everyone in the firm and had interviewed w/ all the firm's partners. Having trouble justifying to keep going when constant stream of rejections keep pouring in. This is my last semester and essentially certain I will be graduating unemployed and forced to go on a fellowship after all the hard work I've put in. Not sure how I am even going to get myself out of my room to celebrate the holiday anymore.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm losing hope. Just got rejected from a firm that is heavily involved in an industry that I have spent significant expense, time, and effort becoming known and networking in, and it apparently has all been for fucking nothing. Pretty much know everyone in the firm and had interviewed w/ all the firm's partners. Having trouble justifying to keep going when constant stream of rejections keep pouring in. This is my last semester and essentially certain I will be graduating unemployed and forced to go on a fellowship after all the hard work I've put in. Not sure how I am even going to get myself out of my room to celebrate the holiday anymore.


I know that feel man. I am waiting on what I seriously suspect and fear is a rejection for a job I want so much, I've already picked out how I would move to that area, where I would live that would be a good commute to the office, etc. instead of doing more applications because I'm too exhausted to keep applying.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Agent » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:12 am

Sorry to hear this. I hope you don't take the rejection personally. If you keep putting in this kind of effort, I think it's just a matter of time until you find success.

Anonymous User wrote:I'm losing hope. Just got rejected from a firm that is heavily involved in an industry that I have spent significant expense, time, and effort becoming known and networking in, and it apparently has all been for fucking nothing. Pretty much know everyone in the firm and had interviewed w/ all the firm's partners. Having trouble justifying to keep going when constant stream of rejections keep pouring in. This is my last semester and essentially certain I will be graduating unemployed and forced to go on a fellowship after all the hard work I've put in. Not sure how I am even going to get myself out of my room to celebrate the holiday anymore.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm losing hope. Just got rejected from a firm that is heavily involved in an industry that I have spent significant expense, time, and effort becoming known and networking in, and it apparently has all been for fucking nothing. Pretty much know everyone in the firm and had interviewed w/ all the firm's partners. Having trouble justifying to keep going when constant stream of rejections keep pouring in. This is my last semester and essentially certain I will be graduating unemployed and forced to go on a fellowship after all the hard work I've put in. Not sure how I am even going to get myself out of my room to celebrate the holiday anymore.


I know that feel man. I am waiting on what I seriously suspect and fear is a rejection for a job I want so much, I've already picked out how I would move to that area, where I would live that would be a good commute to the office, etc. instead of doing more applications because I'm too exhausted to keep applying.


This is me 100% right now. Interview went well, multiple spots available, decision shouldnt come till mid December at earliest. I am terrified.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:16 pm

They always say don't get invested, but it's really hard to interview well without getting invested at least a little.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:58 pm

Just had a big law interview recently for corp finance, and the last question I got was "am i actually interested in corp finance, or is this just better than nothing for you?" Coming in w/ a resume full of govt work and never taken a course purely on corp finance or secured transactions. Hope I gave a convincing story, but not sure what the point of the JD was if seemed to be assumed incompetent in particular fields for whatever reason.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Symplicity email last week said that Wilmerhale DC was looking for 3Ls for a 1st year associate in their corporate practice group. Best of luck to you all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:03 am

Hey I was wondering if anyone who wants to do patent law and that is a 3L is having such a hard time so. Can anyone speak up for those people?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby LawIdiot86 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:Just had a big law interview recently for corp finance, and the last question I got was "am i actually interested in corp finance, or is this just better than nothing for you?" Coming in w/ a resume full of govt work and never taken a course purely on corp finance or secured transactions. Hope I gave a convincing story, but not sure what the point of the JD was if seemed to be assumed incompetent in particular fields for whatever reason.


Talking to some partners in various groups at different firms, they tended to be from two schools of thought. One view is that firms look for bright people they think can learn how to do what they need and will do a good job at it. The other view is that some practice groups need high levels of knowledge of the sub-field (antitrust, banking, labor, IP, communications/media, tax) while other groups require advanced skills as a writer/researcher/reviewer (general litigation and corporate). I suspect firms with the second view tend to have more defined practice groups and each group is trying to avoid hiring someone who can't be billed out as quickly because of the specialized learning curve or who is just trying to use their group to get into a different group. Seeing demonstrated interest from courses or internships helps, but being able to talk up the recent developments in the sub-field (get on the ABA mailing lists) also helps.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:03 am

Guys, networking is the way to go. All of you should put down the books and set up informational interviews. I'm very specific in my practice area and (although I did come from a T10) my grades were bottom 50%. I got offers from two firms: 1 V100 and 1 V30.

It is possible, be proactive. Also, when you network make sure you are smart about it. Reach out to people that have power. Once you know one person (for example a practice group leader)... you usually get their roster of contacts. Sell yourself and know how to market yourself.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:10 am

Like the guy above: it can be done. I'm at a T10, below median, and was no offered at my 2L firm. I got a job at V100 through sheer hustle and networking. You gotta be ruthless, though. Ask yourself if you're ruthless. Because if you're not you will likely end up unemployed if looking as a 3L and/or coming off a no offer. I'm happy to take PMs (if that works as someone writing as anonymous) but what I will tell you in private is no different than what I will say publicly:

(1) Work through all of your contacts;
(2) lean on anyone you can from your former employment (even the firm that dinged you);
(3) try to package yourself for whatever job comes through the pike;
(4) try to find people who are of the same undergrad AND law school combination -- they tend to be the most loyal IMO;
(5) Never give up. The "Job" that I accepted was never posted to the world.
(6) Work through professors, too. That's an edit. See which professors are "connected" to the legal community.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:12 am

how I always feel when someone tells me to "just network bro"

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Like the guy above: it can be done. I'm at a T10, below median, and was no offered at my 2L firm. I got a job at V100 through sheer hustle and networking. You gotta be ruthless, though. Ask yourself if you're ruthless. Because if you're not you will likely end up unemployed if looking as a 3L and/or coming off a no offer. I'm happy to take PMs (if that works as someone writing as anonymous) but what I will tell you in private is no different than what I will say publicly:

(1) Work through all of your contacts;
(2) lean on anyone you can from your former employment (even the firm that dinged you);
(3) try to package yourself for whatever job comes through the pike;
(4) try to find people who are of the same undergrad AND law school combination -- they tend to be the most loyal IMO;
(5) Never give up. The "Job" that I accepted was never posted to the world.
(6) Work through professors, too. That's an edit. See which professors are "connected" to the legal community.


Out of curiosity, how'd you spin your no offer in interviews?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Like the guy above: it can be done. I'm at a T10, below median, and was no offered at my 2L firm. I got a job at V100 through sheer hustle and networking. You gotta be ruthless, though. Ask yourself if you're ruthless. Because if you're not you will likely end up unemployed if looking as a 3L and/or coming off a no offer. I'm happy to take PMs (if that works as someone writing as anonymous) but what I will tell you in private is no different than what I will say publicly:

(1) Work through all of your contacts;
(2) lean on anyone you can from your former employment (even the firm that dinged you);
(3) try to package yourself for whatever job comes through the pike;
(4) try to find people who are of the same undergrad AND law school combination -- they tend to be the most loyal IMO;
(5) Never give up. The "Job" that I accepted was never posted to the world.
(6) Work through professors, too. That's an edit. See which professors are "connected" to the legal community.


Out of curiosity, how'd you spin your no offer in interviews?


Said it was need; department i preferenced didnt have capacity. No way i was going to legitimate what the firm said was my issue. And yes, of course, they can call and ask and see.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote: No way i was going to legitimate what the firm said was my issue. And yes, of course, they can call and ask and see.


if you don't mind me asking, and if you can reveal without outing yourself... what did they say your issue was?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:02 pm

Nothing egregious just personality/fit.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sadsituationJD » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:08 pm

I suppose the real question in this thread, the "500 lb gorilla in the room" if you will, is WHY DID U GUYS GO TO LAWSCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE? Seriously, why? By the tme you were out cramming the useless LSAT "logic" gibberish like "the yellow spaceman can only sit next to the purple spaceman on Tuesdays with a full moon" bullshit, the word was already well out on the "street" that lawschool is an overpriced, boring, miserable waste of time & money which "trains" people for jobs which essentially no longer exist.

Did you think you'd be different? Think that the lawfirm slowdown was "just a hiccup"? Here's a newsflash: it wasn't just a "hiccup," it was Stage IV esophegeal cancer. This industry sucked 10 years ago, it sucked pre-2008, and-stop the presses- it sucks a big one right now. Even on the off chance you find a job (which is highly unlikely), it will be little more than cut n' paste grinding of endless bales of makework shitpaper, for about the same salary a day laborer earns on a landscape crew. Every second of the day recorded on a timesheet, in 6 minute increments. Why would anyone desire such a miserable grind of a "career"? There is almost nothing with poorer prospects and quality of life than this bullshit joke of an industry.

Your best bet is to drop out and start changing gears now. A "lottery" was held, and your ticket lost. You will not find a legal job other than possibly doc review/temp work which pays incredibly poorly and offers no health benefits or paid leave, and certainly no marketable skills. Going solo is likewise an absurd pipedream, with something like 50% of the U.S. population having less than $500 saved for an emergency. Good luck signing up those trailer-park divorces, DWI drunkards, and meht lab operators. Law is dead. Move on.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby dailygrind » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:12 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:I suppose the real question in this thread, the "500 lb gorilla in the room" if you will, is WHY DID U GUYS GO TO LAWSCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE? Seriously, why? By the tme you were out cramming the useless LSAT "logic" gibberish like "the yellow spaceman can only sit next to the purple spaceman on Tuesdays with a full moon" bullshit, the word was already well out on the "street" that lawschool is an overpriced, boring, miserable waste of time & money which "trains" people for jobs which essentially no longer exist.

Did you think you'd be different? Think that the lawfirm slowdown was "just a hiccup"? Here's a newsflash: it wasn't just a "hiccup," it was Stage IV esophegeal cancer. This industry sucked 10 years ago, it sucked pre-2008, and-stop the presses- it sucks a big one right now. Even on the off chance you find a job (which is highly unlikely), it will be little more than cut n' paste grinding of endless bales of makework shitpaper, for about the same salary a day laborer earns on a landscape crew. Every second of the day recorded on a timesheet, in 6 minute increments. Why would anyone desire such a miserable grind of a "career"? There is almost nothing with poorer prospects and quality of life than this bullshit joke of an industry.

Your best bet is to drop out and start changing gears now. A "lottery" was held, and your ticket lost. You will not find a legal job other than possibly doc review/temp work which pays incredibly poorly and offers no health benefits or paid leave, and certainly no marketable skills. Going solo is likewise an absurd pipedream, with something like 50% of the U.S. population having less than $500 saved for an emergency. Good luck signing up those trailer-park divorces, DWI drunkards, and meht lab operators. Law is dead. Move on.


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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TJISMYHERO » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:18 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:I suppose the real question in this thread, the "500 lb gorilla in the room" if you will, is WHY DID U GUYS GO TO LAWSCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE? Seriously, why? By the tme you were out cramming the useless LSAT "logic" gibberish like "the yellow spaceman can only sit next to the purple spaceman on Tuesdays with a full moon" bullshit, the word was already well out on the "street" that lawschool is an overpriced, boring, miserable waste of time & money which "trains" people for jobs which essentially no longer exist.

Did you think you'd be different? Think that the lawfirm slowdown was "just a hiccup"? Here's a newsflash: it wasn't just a "hiccup," it was Stage IV esophegeal cancer. This industry sucked 10 years ago, it sucked pre-2008, and-stop the presses- it sucks a big one right now. Even on the off chance you find a job (which is highly unlikely), it will be little more than cut n' paste grinding of endless bales of makework shitpaper, for about the same salary a day laborer earns on a landscape crew. Every second of the day recorded on a timesheet, in 6 minute increments. Why would anyone desire such a miserable grind of a "career"? There is almost nothing with poorer prospects and quality of life than this bullshit joke of an industry.

Your best bet is to drop out and start changing gears now. A "lottery" was held, and your ticket lost. You will not find a legal job other than possibly doc review/temp work which pays incredibly poorly and offers no health benefits or paid leave, and certainly no marketable skills. Going solo is likewise an absurd pipedream, with something like 50% of the U.S. population having less than $500 saved for an emergency. Good luck signing up those trailer-park divorces, DWI drunkards, and meht lab operators. Law is dead. Move on.


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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby beach_terror » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:34 pm

Hyperbole aside, that post is generally wrong. If you have shit grades and a shit attitude, then yeah you're fucked. If a lot of you are in secondary markets like I am, a lot have changed hiring patterns and look later in the game. Get out there and get some attorneys invested in seeing you succeed.




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