The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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bk1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi, Vale. I've been here a while. I took an internship after graduating. I just found out that I'll receive an offer as long as I pass the bar!

Congrats! Glad the internship paid off.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:17 pm

Is doc review that bad? I checked Craiglist as a poster recommended, and with certain language skills some doc review jobs pay $60-80 a hour, 40 hrs min/week, one even guarantee to last until end of the year.

Or is it that once one get into doc review, there is no other way out to be a real lawyer? Not even public interest org will take you? Can't one do pro bono/continue searching for jobs in-between doc review jobs?

lolwat
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lolwat » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Or is it that once one get into doc review, there is no other way out to be a real lawyer?


I believe this is why.

Not that it's necessarily impossible, just not all that easy.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is doc review that bad? I checked Craiglist as a poster recommended, and with certain language skills some doc review jobs pay $60-80 a hour, 40 hrs min/week, one even guarantee to last until end of the year.

Or is it that once one get into doc review, there is no other way out to be a real lawyer? Not even public interest org will take you? Can't one do pro bono/continue searching for jobs in-between doc review jobs?


i believe radlulz said that it was a scarlet letter for big firm gigs. but i'm not so sure about public interest. My supervisor at my legal aid internship 1L summer was on the doc review circuit before getting her current position, but it was pre-ITE.

btw, i was the near-suicidal poster from a few pages back...thanks so much for the care and support. it really does mean a lot. I have not told anyone at school about how i feel and the hell i'm going through.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:29 pm

lolwat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Or is it that once one get into doc review, there is no other way out to be a real lawyer?


I believe this is why.

Not that it's necessarily impossible, just not all that easy.


my shitboomer dean of students told me rosily that doc review is a great start, offers skill-building experience, and that folks end up as associates for the firm they served as doc review monkeys. ok, paraphrasing, but that was the gist of what she said. :roll:

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:34 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi, Vale. I've been here a while. I took an internship after graduating. I just found out that I'll receive an offer as long as I pass the bar!

Congrats! Glad the internship paid off.


congrats! where did you intern? pd/da?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:36 pm

Job lead, for all those SE-driven attorneys still looking. I have a personal contact with someone who worked there last year; more details below

King & Spalding Document Center, as a "Project Attorney: https://re11.ultipro.com/KSLAW/jobboard ... D3010AEEA5

From my contact, they pay ~$50k/year, with no benefits. However, it is salaried, not driven necessarily by hours (contact told of weeks when no work, clocked out, yet still will receive full weekly pay). They do not have a GA Bar-specific requirement, notably. From what I understand, it is a very collegial atmosphere, with a lot of recent law school grads in similar situations.

The one feature that made it especially attractive, from my contact's POV, is that there is a lot of firm interaction; K&S just doesn't stick you in the 'Discovery' silo and slip documents under the door. For instance, there is a good chance you could be staffed in the main K&S tower in Midtown Atlanta, and the firm encourages/permits you to do pro-bono work, often alongside full K&S attorneys. This way, you could have more "real" experience on your resume than pure doc review garbage, and similarly have a fairly prestigious name on your resume too.

I am not sure about their hiring timeline, as it has been up a few weeks; I've had an application in with them, but never heard anything back from them; I recently accepted another offer (have posted here numerous times, but anon for obvious/personal contact reasons).

However, I do know that they hire 150+ in a cycle, and if you actually end up liking doc review, there is a real career track within K&S Discovery.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:37 pm

lolwat wrote:
I have a friend who recently got work at the USPS as a mailman (mailperson?). I know it's not glamorous, but he told me they're hiring again for those type of positions (after not doing so for a while). It's a fed gov job with benefits. FYI.


Mail carrier is the official term, I think (my mom works as one and just got promoted to a regular carrier). USPS is, in fact, hiring quite a bit for various positions if people need temporary jobs. I mail lots of stuff from selling on eBay and talk to the clerks at the counters and they told me about some positions that were open.

Re: networking, it's all really just about (a) getting people to like you (b) that have connections (c) to places that are hiring someone at your level (i.e., an associate with 0 experience). All three have to be true for networking (whether informational interview, "organic networking," or otherwise) to yield an interview. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk to people that can't get you anywhere (don't be like the stuck-up people in DC), but I've lost count of times where (a) I shoot the shit with associates for a while knowing they have no real pull anywhere, just to hang out and learn a bit more about what it's like to actually work and (b) I talk to partners and they tell me to pass them my resume and they'll pass it along, and they do but the firm (or the partner) gets back to me and says that the firm just isn't hiring. But then, there are the the few times where I talked to a partner, had them either pass my resume along or send an e-mail to someone in charge that I send my resume to, and a couple days later recruiting contacts me to set up an interview. Yes, that actually happens, but the chances are low because all of the above (a, b, and c) have to be true for this to work.

Random sidenote, I think I've finally come up with a half-decent strategy to interview in markets I have zero ties to.

What's the strategy bro?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi, Vale. I've been here a while. I took an internship after graduating. I just found out that I'll receive an offer as long as I pass the bar!

Congrats! Glad the internship paid off.


congrats! where did you intern? pd/da?

Best of luck brother! What's the jerb?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lolwat » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:my shitboomer dean of students told me rosily that doc review is a great start, offers skill-building experience, and that folks end up as associates for the firm they served as doc review monkeys. ok, paraphrasing, but that was the gist of what she said. :roll:


Heh. But I mean, if you can't get anything else, you kinda have to, right? It's better than a non-legal job for transitioning into legal work. Like staff attorney positions. I mean, looking at the K&S posting just above, that seems like a doc review type of position that could, in fact, transition into something else (or at least not be mind-numbing as only doing doc review).

What's the strategy bro?


Not manufacturing ties at all. I'll state up front, if they ask directly, that I have none of the usual ties (family, grew up there, etc.) to the area. I focus on the firm and why I want to work there (I'm not just applying to random biglaw firms), and then if necessary, I talk about why that particular city (or type of city) is on my radar for places-I-want-to-live in. It helps that I have no real desire to live in NYC now that I have a better idea of what it's like (as opposed to the first 20 years of my life, where I literally just went "I WANT TO MAKE IT TO NYC FOR ALL THE BIGMONEY SKJDFKLSJDF") and I've also lived in tons of small places that I really don't want to stay in, so a bunch of secondary markets are perfect for making the pitch of I want to live there because it's actually livable (unlike NYC) and there's actually stuff to do (unlike almost every other place I've lived in).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:13 pm

government honor programs for 3Ls...are they flames? they seem impossible to get? i mean i'm applying, but i'm laughing as i do...

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mr. wednesday
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:government honor programs for 3Ls...are they flames? they seem impossible to get? i mean i'm applying, but i'm laughing as i do...

That is how I got my job. They aren't flame, they just only hire like 2-10 people a year depending on the program, and emphasize different things.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:07 pm

mr. wednesday wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:government honor programs for 3Ls...are they flames? they seem impossible to get? i mean i'm applying, but i'm laughing as i do...

That is how I got my job. They aren't flame, they just only hire like 2-10 people a year depending on the program, and emphasize different things.

This. Worth applying for sure, but hard to get a job.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:38 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi, Vale. I've been here a while. I took an internship after graduating. I just found out that I'll receive an offer as long as I pass the bar!

Congrats! Glad the internship paid off.


congrats! where did you intern? pd/da?

Best of luck brother! What's the jerb?


Thanks. It's with a 2 attorney bankruptcy firm. I have to drive an hour to get there, but it's good experience so far.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Job lead, for all those SE-driven attorneys still looking. I have a personal contact with someone who worked there last year; more details below

King & Spalding Document Center, as a "Project Attorney: https://re11.ultipro.com/KSLAW/jobboard ... D3010AEEA5

From my contact, they pay ~$50k/year, with no benefits. However, it is salaried, not driven necessarily by hours (contact told of weeks when no work, clocked out, yet still will receive full weekly pay). They do not have a GA Bar-specific requirement, notably. From what I understand, it is a very collegial atmosphere, with a lot of recent law school grads in similar situations.

The one feature that made it especially attractive, from my contact's POV, is that there is a lot of firm interaction; K&S just doesn't stick you in the 'Discovery' silo and slip documents under the door. For instance, there is a good chance you could be staffed in the main K&S tower in Midtown Atlanta, and the firm encourages/permits you to do pro-bono work, often alongside full K&S attorneys. This way, you could have more "real" experience on your resume than pure doc review garbage, and similarly have a fairly prestigious name on your resume too.

I am not sure about their hiring timeline, as it has been up a few weeks; I've had an application in with them, but never heard anything back from them; I recently accepted another offer (have posted here numerous times, but anon for obvious/personal contact reasons).

However, I do know that they hire 150+ in a cycle, and if you actually end up liking doc review, there is a real career track within K&S Discovery.

There aren't similar openings listed on the website, but is there any chance you know of one (doc review and whatnot) at the Silicon Valley office?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:government honor programs for 3Ls...are they flames? they seem impossible to get? i mean i'm applying, but i'm laughing as i do...


Lots of FedGov honor programs are as competitive as Biglaw. You have to be at a top 20 law school and be in the top 10-25% (depending on school rank) to have a decent shot.

But there may be a few agencies out there looking for other things like WE, writing, etc.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:07 pm

Copped a part-time research clerk job for the school year (5-10 hours a week). Hopefully that helps with the job search rather than detract from it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:45 pm

Heh. But I mean, if you can't get anything else, you kinda have to, right? It's better than a non-legal job for transitioning into legal work. Like staff attorney positions. I mean, looking at the K&S posting just above, that seems like a doc review type of position that could, in fact, transition into something else (or at least not be mind-numbing as only doing doc review).


And doc review pays $30/hr in most cities, I have even seen $50/hr advertised. It's good money. Which is what you need.

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mr. wednesday
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:46 pm

JCougar wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:government honor programs for 3Ls...are they flames? they seem impossible to get? i mean i'm applying, but i'm laughing as i do...


Lots of FedGov honor programs are as competitive as Biglaw. You have to be at a top 20 law school and be in the top 10-25% (depending on school rank) to have a decent shot.

But there may be a few agencies out there looking for other things like WE, writing, etc.

the only thing I would disagree with here is the 10-25% thing. if you have a 3.0 or higher and are not applying to DOJ, I wouldn't expect your grades to be much of a factor. If you have experience at an agency and an interest, I wouldn't let median grades discourage you from applying.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:57 pm

Hey guys, question for you. When you're contacting potential employers these days, what does your e-mail signature look like?

During law school, mine was something like . . .

TTH
J.D. Candidate, 2013
Preftigious Law Review Position
Law School
Phone Number

I don't really know what else to put other than my name and phone number these days, which looks sparse. Thoughts?

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crysmissmichelle
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby crysmissmichelle » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:00 pm

mr. wednesday wrote:
JCougar wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:government honor programs for 3Ls...are they flames? they seem impossible to get? i mean i'm applying, but i'm laughing as i do...


Lots of FedGov honor programs are as competitive as Biglaw. You have to be at a top 20 law school and be in the top 10-25% (depending on school rank) to have a decent shot.

But there may be a few agencies out there looking for other things like WE, writing, etc.

the only thing I would disagree with here is the 10-25% thing. if you have a 3.0 or higher and are not applying to DOJ, I wouldn't expect your grades to be much of a factor. If you have experience at an agency and an interest, I wouldn't let median grades discourage you from applying.


Many of them (especially DOJ) also prefer post-clerkship applicants. . . if you've done a judicial clerkship, the top-20 school and GPA requirements don't apply as rigidly.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:08 pm

TTH wrote:Hey guys, question for you. When you're contacting potential employers these days, what does your e-mail signature look like?

During law school, mine was something like . . .

TTH
J.D. Candidate, 2013
Preftigious Law Review Position
Law School
Phone Number

I don't really know what else to put other than my name and phone number these days, which looks sparse. Thoughts?

I never had any negative effects from just # and email.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lwoods » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:24 pm

TTH wrote:Hey guys, question for you. When you're contacting potential employers these days, what does your e-mail signature look like?

During law school, mine was something like . . .

TTH
J.D. Candidate, 2013
Preftigious Law Review Position
Law School
Phone Number

I don't really know what else to put other than my name and phone number these days, which looks sparse. Thoughts?


During 1L summer, I went on one of those shady networking lunches that may have been a date (awkward), and the lawyer gave me a hard time for having an email signature block. His theory is that people should know who I am (and yes, that was the networking part of the conversation...kind of a "dress for the job you want" sort of attitude). Around the same time, this popped up on my facebook newsfeed. I took that synchronicity as a sign to discontinue use of a signature.

That being said, I think you should include your phone number. The other information you should have in the body (that you sat for the [state] bar, just graduated from X law school in May) or cover letter (law review).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:26 pm

TTH wrote:Hey guys, question for you. When you're contacting potential employers these days, what does your e-mail signature look like?

During law school, mine was something like . . .

TTH
J.D. Candidate, 2013
Preftigious Law Review Position
Law School
Phone Number

I don't really know what else to put other than my name and phone number these days, which looks sparse. Thoughts?

Currently:

Name
J.D., 2013, School
Phone

Before it was similar to yours except I didn't put my journal position. I'd think employers or anyone else isn't going to care very much about that when they just want to possibly know your contact info.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby iwakeboard » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:08 pm

Checking in on the Vale.




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