The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:48 pm

Grades are median or maybe slightly below, not really sure. I've taken pretty much 100% transactional classes since 2L, and a few courses at the business school as well. I originally thought clerking would be a waste of time for me because I was so corporate-focused (and I am still at a loss to see how clerking helps someone in corporate), but I'd be willing to try anything right about now. Thanks.[/quote]

Maybe do a bankruptcy clerkship. Clerking won't help with transactional practice otherwise, although Delaware would probably help. At least apply for clerkship a in corporate heavy jurisdictions.

Try to ignore people who think HYS are golden for jobs. There just aren't that many 3L jobs available.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:49 pm

am i awkward cause i'm unemployed or am i unemployed cause i'm awkward?

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a male human
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:23 am

i know i'm awkward

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:27 am

sparty99 wrote:If you go to HYS, you should not worry.......Apply even outside law. A HYS degree is GOLDEN.


I hope you're right, dude, but I personally know at least 3 people from the class above mine who were unemployed upon (or at least very close to) graduation and they were, like me, very firm-centric. HYS definitely isn't as bulletproof as the world seems to believe. Thanks to those who suggested bankruptcy clerkships. They seem like at least a semi-viable option. As someone who knows next to nothing about clerkships, are bankruptcy/Delaware clerkships any more difficult than the average?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:If you go to HYS, you should not worry.......Apply even outside law. A HYS degree is GOLDEN.


I hope you're right, dude, but I personally know at least 3 people from the class above mine who were unemployed upon (or at least very close to) graduation and they were, like me, very firm-centric. HYS definitely isn't as bulletproof as the world seems to believe. Thanks to those who suggested bankruptcy clerkships. They seem like at least a semi-viable option. As someone who knows next to nothing about clerkships, are bankruptcy/Delaware clerkships any more difficult than the average?


Preparing clerkship apps takes forever. If you're going to do that, contact the profs who you want to write your recs *now*.

Also, if you're going to give up on law, tap the alumni network.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:If you go to HYS, you should not worry.......Apply even outside law. A HYS degree is GOLDEN.


I hope you're right, dude, but I personally know at least 3 people from the class above mine who were unemployed upon (or at least very close to) graduation and they were, like me, very firm-centric. HYS definitely isn't as bulletproof as the world seems to believe. Thanks to those who suggested bankruptcy clerkships. They seem like at least a semi-viable option. As someone who knows next to nothing about clerkships, are bankruptcy/Delaware clerkships any more difficult than the average?


Delaware and SDNY BK clerkships are much harder to get than other BK clerkships because those are probably the two most important BK markets.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:23 pm

sparty99 wrote:If you go to HYS, you should not worry.......Apply even outside law. A HYS degree is GOLDEN.


This is an amazingly ignorant statement.

ETA: Didn't realize you meant outside law. Yes, that's valid. Inside law, with a no offer, it's useless.

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mr. wednesday
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Preparing clerkship apps takes forever. If you're going to do that, contact the profs who you want to write your recs *now*.


True. But if you register for a bk course and then apply to every bk clerkship that is posted on OSCAR, I think you'd have a decent chance. It might be worth it to apply to magistrate clerkships too; you are all about transactional but it pays better and gives you better options than LSAT tutor.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sparty99 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:If you go to HYS, you should not worry.......Apply even outside law. A HYS degree is GOLDEN.


I hope you're right, dude, but I personally know at least 3 people from the class above mine who were unemployed upon (or at least very close to) graduation and they were, like me, very firm-centric. HYS definitely isn't as bulletproof as the world seems to believe. Thanks to those who suggested bankruptcy clerkships. They seem like at least a semi-viable option. As someone who knows next to nothing about clerkships, are bankruptcy/Delaware clerkships any more difficult than the average?


Don't be firm-centric. You are wasting your time with that. I suggested applying outside of law as I know that a HYS degree is golden in the business world. Consulting firms love HYS. All of them. From McKinsey to Protiviti consulting. Trust.

Financial services also loves HYS. Tech companies love Stanford. Teachers love HYS. The fed. government loves HY law, especially if you have decent grades. You need to tap into the HYS network and I don't mean law. I mean, anything, but law. If you go to Harvard, that is the best academic network that you can be a part of. Because HYS have strong MBA programs, specifically HS, you should see what companies recruit those students or if you have no prior experience, see what companies recruit those undergrads. I can't even begin to tell you how much a HYS degree is valued in the business world. You should expand your legal search, outside the U.S.A. Inside the USA, contact in-house organizations. Consider contract managers, etc. Firms have their structured recruiting programs and that shipped has mostly sailed. That is why you should expand your search to any jobs outside of that. Again, a HYS degree is golden and well respected. There will be people who want to interview you on that basis alone. Especially in business.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:57 pm

sparty99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sparty99 wrote:If you go to HYS, you should not worry.......Apply even outside law. A HYS degree is GOLDEN.


I hope you're right, dude, but I personally know at least 3 people from the class above mine who were unemployed upon (or at least very close to) graduation and they were, like me, very firm-centric. HYS definitely isn't as bulletproof as the world seems to believe. Thanks to those who suggested bankruptcy clerkships. They seem like at least a semi-viable option. As someone who knows next to nothing about clerkships, are bankruptcy/Delaware clerkships any more difficult than the average?


Don't be firm-centric. You are wasting your time with that. I suggested applying outside of law as I know that a HYS degree is golden in the business world. Consulting firms love HYS. All of them. From McKinsey to Protiviti consulting. Trust.

Financial services also loves HYS. Tech companies love Stanford. Teachers love HYS. The fed. government loves HY law, especially if you have decent grades. You need to tap into the HYS network and I don't mean law. I mean, anything, but law. If you go to Harvard, that is the best academic network that you can be a part of. Because HYS have strong MBA programs, specifically HS, you should see what companies recruit those students or if you have no prior experience, see what companies recruit those undergrads. I can't even begin to tell you how much a HYS degree is valued in the business world. You should expand your legal search, outside the U.S.A. Inside the USA, contact in-house organizations. Consider contract managers, etc. Firms have their structured recruiting programs and that shipped has mostly sailed. That is why you should expand your search to any jobs outside of that. Again, a HYS degree is golden and well respected. There will be people who want to interview you on that basis alone. Especially in business.


A few more ideas:
- Biglaw firms with smallish overseas offices that don't really do OCI
- Watch the legal blogs to see if any transactional partners have recently set up boutiques. It's rarer in transactional than lit, but you never know.
- Startups (for non-legal work) - risky and probably crappy pay early on, but if it goes south you have a great explanation for what you were doing with your time and real-world business experience that you can talk about in future interviews. Startups are notorious for getting in trouble because the people who invent/create stuff don't understand business or law enough to make deals and avoid costly disputes; this is a selling point if you know any startup people. If you're at S, it shouldn't be too difficult to find some; H also has lots; Y maybe less so.
- Asset management. May be tough without a summer at the bigger ones, but look for smaller ones (and maybe try to do a term-time internship to show them what you've got). If you're at Y, NY and Stamford are commutable.
- Legislative aide work - particularly if anything's available for legislators dealing with financial regulation.
- US Trustees' Offices?
- If you have any connection to Detroit, see if Kevyn Orr's office is hiring anyone in-house. It would be a unique experience, to say the least.

It goes without saying, whenever you're cold-e-mailing someone, use your @harvard, @yale or @stanford address. It drastically increases the chance the recipient will actually open the e-mail, particularly if it's not at a place where they see that every day.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:04 pm

Unemployed recent grad here. I just got an interview with a small firm that does high end work in the area I'm interested in. I'm excited about it, but at this point I feel so defeated that it's hard to figure out how to sell myself/how I would actually be an asset to the firm. I guess I just feel kind of worthless right now, but I know that's an awful attitude to have going into the interview. Any advice? I know I need to figure out how to be more positive and everything, but it's kind of hard right now.

mbison
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mbison » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Vale lurker from HYS, officially joining upon complete 3L OCI fail


Have you tried reaching out to some alumni (working in law or elsewhere)? All three of these schools have very powerful networks. YLS and SLS both have fairly close-knit alumni networks and they try to look out for recent grads (and may be in a position to help you out). HLS may be a little tougher because it's so massive, but the name alone is very powerful. Send out of some feelers and I think you'll find something that pays well, although maybe not biglaw.

NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Unemployed recent grad here. I just got an interview with a small firm that does high end work in the area I'm interested in. I'm excited about it, but at this point I feel so defeated that it's hard to figure out how to sell myself/how I would actually be an asset to the firm. I guess I just feel kind of worthless right now, but I know that's an awful attitude to have going into the interview. Any advice? I know I need to figure out how to be more positive and everything, but it's kind of hard right now.


When is the interview? What are you planning to say about your strengths and what you will bring to the firm? (seriously, post a list or something for people to look over.)

The thing is that people get rejected from jobs all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with their competency as a lawyer or a colleague. The firm may decide they don't have enough work, or you're a guy and they decide they want a woman (or vice versa.)

Rejection is wearing on everyone, but try to look at it as just part of the game.

You have to try to stay mentally strong. I'm not an expert on mental toughness but I know that you can control and change your attitude even in the most challenging times. I find that getting outside, doing some daily exercise, listening to favorite music and being around positive people helps me. Staying mentally strong is a skill you can learn just like anything else. You just have to find what works for you and stick with it.

I think you can do this.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 pm

I once interviewed with a guy who told me that his mother died that morning. Needless to say I didn't get the position.
The moral of the story is that interviews are completely random and have many factors you simply cannot control. If you interview with an attorney on the day that he received a huge bonus you have a better chance to land it because his positive mood will reflect on you. Likewise, if you are interviewing with an attorney on the day his wife told him she has been cheating on him for years and wants a divorce you aren't likely to get the job. Assuming you're not socially awkward and don't stutter and sweat profusely throughout interviews the best you can do is be yourself, lay out how you can contribute to helping the firm and understand that you have a solid shot just based on the firm taking time to interview you.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:56 pm

Interview tomorrow for a small firm I am well qualified for. I'm sure some random and arbitrary reason will have them reject me by days end.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:17 pm

kalvano wrote:Interview tomorrow for a small firm I am well qualified for. I'm sure some random and arbitrary reason will have them reject me by days end.

Good luck man. Pullin for you. Let us know how it goes.

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newyorker88
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby newyorker88 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Unemployed recent grad here. I just got an interview with a small firm that does high end work in the area I'm interested in. I'm excited about it, but at this point I feel so defeated that it's hard to figure out how to sell myself/how I would actually be an asset to the firm. I guess I just feel kind of worthless right now, but I know that's an awful attitude to have going into the interview. Any advice? I know I need to figure out how to be more positive and everything, but it's kind of hard right now.


Guerilla tactics for getting the legal job of your dreams has a great section on interview preparation

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby timmyd » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:36 pm

Dude...if you go to HYS you can get a pretty nice law job even without getting offer after 2L year. Tap into your home market if its even decent size. Ive gotten interviews in secondary markets that have been impressed I go to UT...so yea I think they might be somewhat impressed with HYS. It might not be big law but Ive interviewed with a couple firms starting out at 75. Its not a whole lot of money but its a hell of a lot better than nothing. You will be fine

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a male human
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:57 pm

Can anyone clarify what exactly is a secondary market and a tertiary market? Are these unofficial lists of less competitive markets in the U.S.?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:03 am

a male human wrote:Can anyone clarify what exactly is a secondary market and a tertiary market? Are these unofficial lists of less competitive markets in the U.S.?

There's no list and 2ndary and 3tiary markets aren't necessarily less competitive

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bk1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bk1 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:04 am

a male human wrote:Can anyone clarify what exactly is a secondary market and a tertiary market? Are these unofficial lists of less competitive markets in the U.S.?

People use different terminology so there is no standard.

NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:49 am

kalvano wrote:Interview tomorrow for a small firm I am well qualified for. I'm sure some random and arbitrary reason will have them reject me by days end.


Lol. You know that logic doesn't work. They could easily hire you because you fit their random and arbitrary criteria.

NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:51 am

rad lulz wrote:
kalvano wrote:Interview tomorrow for a small firm I am well qualified for. I'm sure some random and arbitrary reason will have them reject me by days end.

Good luck man. Pullin for you. Let us know how it goes.

+ at least 1

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:56 am

NYstate wrote:
kalvano wrote:Interview tomorrow for a small firm I am well qualified for. I'm sure some random and arbitrary reason will have them reject me by days end.


Lol. You know that logic doesn't work. They could easily hire you because you fit their random and arbitrary criteria.


Yes, but why should the outcome this time be different from all the previous times?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:02 am

kalvano wrote:
NYstate wrote:
kalvano wrote:Interview tomorrow for a small firm I am well qualified for. I'm sure some random and arbitrary reason will have them reject me by days end.


Lol. You know that logic doesn't work. They could easily hire you because you fit their random and arbitrary criteria.


Yes, but why should the outcome this time be different from all the previous times?

Most job search outcomes end in rejection. Until you get the job. Nature of the beast. Kill it man.




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