The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:53 am

Gah. I hate informational interviews. 99.9% chance they lead to nothing and I feel like some stupid puppy dog with my stupid questions while avoiding the whole "I need a job, wanna get me one?" topic we both know I am here for.
Last edited by BarbellDreams on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:54 am

BarbellDreams wrote:Gah. I hate informational interview. 99/9% chance they lead to nothing and I feel like some stupid puppy dog with my stupid questions while avoiding the whole "I need a job, wanna get me one?" topic we both know I am here for.

Free lunch or coffee at least?

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:02 am

rad lulz wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Gah. I hate informational interview. 99/9% chance they lead to nothing and I feel like some stupid puppy dog with my stupid questions while avoiding the whole "I need a job, wanna get me one?" topic we both know I am here for.

Free lunch or coffee at least?


I mean yeah, but I don't even like coffee. :)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:16 am

Same here. I just sent an update to a bunch of networked contacts. Some have been responsive, even if they can't get me anything. Others are non-responsive. The worse one I got simply said "Best of Luck.". Felt like a complete slap in the face. Meeting w/ one of my profs today to see if that leads anywhere, but he is just special counsel and quite dated. This process is killing me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It's sad that I spent 100k for a legal degree and am shooting for a job that pays 40k while my gf got a 45k job 3 months after graduating from college....boy, the honor of being a lawyer just vanished.

My ex didn't pay for her college education, started with like 30-40k and is now making 100k because she started paying more attention to $ than our relationship, while I tried to juggle both her and school like I promised her and my grades got cranked and now I don't have a job. It's not a good excuse, but yeah, that happened. At least your gf can support you while you look for a job that will pay off down the road for both of you.

Anonymous User wrote:Same here. I just sent an update to a bunch of networked contacts. Some have been responsive, even if they can't get me anything. Others are non-responsive. The worse one I got simply said "Best of Luck.". Felt like a complete slap in the face. Meeting w/ one of my profs today to see if that leads anywhere, but he is just special counsel and quite dated. This process is killing me.

People I link up with often tell me "you're doing the right thing by talking to people~" but I've been doing that since 2L year.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:35 pm

Most info interviews are weak, but I know someone who managed to snag a pretty good biglaw firm after a lot of networking. He really hustled, though. He talked to many many people and volunteered to do public interest side projects etc. When an opening came up, because he had been interacting with that person for so long, they brought him in.

The problem with law is that most places simply aren't hiring, and if they're going to, they want deeper contact than an info interview. Biglaw in particular is such a system that info interviews don't really help you subvert the system.

So far I'm finding that I'm getting much better traction with info interviews outside of law.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:44 pm

I'm a huge fail at networking. Tried to network with my boss from last summer. He responded to my request for coffee with a here are my times, and after I responded, I got nothing again. I seriously think that networking only works though if you actually know the person. It doesn't really work when someone sets you up with a person or you meet them at a networking event.

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TTH
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Not that I have these options, but I'm curious about what the vale thinks.

Say option one is staff attorney for a large law firm. You would mainly only be doing doc reviews and other discovery shit, but it pays $75,000.

Option two is an associate at a small firm that does a practice you're interested in, but it's not typically a high paying field.

How much less would option two have to pay for you to take option one?

Assume you have significant student loan debt.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lukertin » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:59 pm

TTH wrote:How much less would option two have to pay for you to take option one?

Assume you have significant student loan debt.


If I had more than $100k student debt I wouldn't take option 2, I don't think, in any circumstance.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:03 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:I'm a huge fail at networking. Tried to network with my boss from last summer. He responded to my request for coffee with a here are my times, and after I responded, I got nothing again. I seriously think that networking only works though if you actually know the person. It doesn't really work when someone sets you up with a person or you meet them at a networking event.

Agreed. It's a bit awkward trying to connect with old contacts because why would they care what I have to say? Last time I did get a few leads to some big-name partners whom I'm too intimidated to reach out to (my self-confidence now is much lower than when I was a 2L, thanks lawl school).

A friend got a job through networking. She talks to a lot of people and always has guys fawning over her (the stories I hear LOL) offering to introduce her to people. She also has an old attorney looking out for her who practically treats her like a granddaughter and connects her to other attorneys. Even then my friend has been networking for her entire 3L year at the least.

I see networking as a long-term strategy where after talking to people enough times (and following up every 3-6 months) they'll remember you if a lateral position ever opens up and knows you well enough to refer you to that firm's contact.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:21 pm

I've had success through networking, but it's always the situation where a job opens up and people who know me think I should apply, or, employers ask current employees (who I know) if they know anyone who would be good.

So in my opinion the only networking that actually works is being an authenticly nice person and doing a decent job at basic life skills, so people think of you when stuff opens up. Schmoozing for the sake of schmoozing might work once in a blue moon but it isn't worth the effort. Your time is better spent volunteering/getting involved/actually getting to know good people who will think you're a good person.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:25 pm

TTH wrote:Not that I have these options, but I'm curious about what the vale thinks.

Say option one is staff attorney for a large law firm. You would mainly only be doing doc reviews and other discovery shit, but it pays $75,000.

Option two is an associate at a small firm that does a practice you're interested in, but it's not typically a high paying field.

How much less would option two have to pay for you to take option one?

Assume you have significant student loan debt.


What's the hours difference? If same hours, I wouldn't take option two for less than $60k. If 5-10 less hours per week on average, I'd take it at $50k but not much below.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:26 pm

Getting a job is about luck that is centered around opportunity (is there a job?) and timing (did you apply for the job right as it opened up?). Networking helps create a better chance for those two to align for you, but you're still talking a 5% bump or so. I personally know an unemployed attorney who has been barred for a year, has gone on 43 (as of a month ago when we spoke) info interviews and volunteered for PI organizations to get some courtroom experience, and has absolutely nothing to show for it. He is not socially awkward at the very least either, which should say a lot about the state of the market.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:44 pm

The legal market might make a difference. I'm from the Bay Area, where everyone is already concerned about keeping their own jobs.

I actually did get an interview a long time ago by making a connection with a partner at a small firm and applying through him when the firm posted an opening. I fucked up the interview, as usual. I always do for firms I'm actually excited about. Maybe I become too casual.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:07 pm

TTH wrote:Not that I have these options, but I'm curious about what the vale thinks.

Say option one is staff attorney for a large law firm. You would mainly only be doing doc reviews and other discovery shit, but it pays $75,000.

Option two is an associate at a small firm that does a practice you're interested in, but it's not typically a high paying field.

How much less would option two have to pay for you to take option one?

Assume you have significant student loan debt.

You should also think about where you will be in a few years if you go with either of these options. My understanding is that you will not have much potential for advancement as a staff attorney and you will not likely ever make more than $75k in that role (someone correct me if I'm wrong). At the small firm you may be more likely to earn a salary bump or otherwise improved compensation, which could make it more lucrative in the long run. If that's the case you could take the more personally rewarding position without feeling like you made a crippling financial sacrifice.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby gwuorbust » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:11 pm

TTH wrote:Not that I have these options, but I'm curious about what the vale thinks.

Say option one is staff attorney for a large law firm. You would mainly only be doing doc reviews and other discovery shit, but it pays $75,000.

Option two is an associate at a small firm that does a practice you're interested in, but it's not typically a high paying field.

How much less would option two have to pay for you to take option one?

Assume you have significant student loan debt.


Depends on what area of practice the small firm is in. That a field is usually low pay does not usually mean it is not lucrative for the person running the firm. Most small personal injury firms pay shit, but the guys person running the firms can make bank.

I think biglaw as a whole is going to continue to contract. That biglaw job sounds like a quick ticket towards the doc review circuit.

If the second job is in an area where money can be made by the owners of a firm, I would say take the lower pay option, learn as much as you can, and bounce in 2-3 years once you've got the skills to do your own thing.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:25 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
TTH wrote:Not that I have these options, but I'm curious about what the vale thinks.

Say option one is staff attorney for a large law firm. You would mainly only be doing doc reviews and other discovery shit, but it pays $75,000.

Option two is an associate at a small firm that does a practice you're interested in, but it's not typically a high paying field.

How much less would option two have to pay for you to take option one?

Assume you have significant student loan debt.


Depends on what area of practice the small firm is in. That a field is usually low pay does not usually mean it is not lucrative for the person running the firm. Most small personal injury firms pay shit, but the guys person running the firms can make bank.

I think biglaw as a whole is going to continue to contract. That biglaw job sounds like a quick ticket towards the doc review circuit.

If the second job is in an area where money can be made by the owners of a firm, I would say take the lower pay option, learn as much as you can, and bounce in 2-3 years once you've got the skills to do your own thing.


The small firm is union-side labor law. As I advance, I can make a living, but I'll never be rich. Of course, I'll be doing real lawyer stuff and can then move on to something else, too, which doesn't seem as much of an option at the other job.



of course, now that I'm poasting about this, I won't get ether. Ha!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:33 pm

$75k sounds nice in theory, but those discovery type jobs just seem to be begging for an outsourcing or computerization.

If you got job 1 but not job 2, I'd take job 1 but continue looking.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mr. wednesday » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:48 pm

Personally I'd rather do union-side labor law. If the staff attorney position was $75k with lots of job security, maybe the doc review wouldn't be so bad. But I doubt you'd be anything but disposable to the firm. At least with labor law you can branch into mediations, maybe employment law at some point. There is at least some room for growth.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:05 pm

Not sure if good news is OK around here, but I'm leaving the Vale. I'll still be here in spirit, because I know just like all of you how it feels. Was very fortunate to get a midlaw position in a tertiary market after a no-offer off my 2L SA.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby luckyjd » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if good news is OK around here, but I'm leaving the Vale. I'll still be here in spirit, because I know just like all of you how it feels. Was very fortunate to get a midlaw position in a tertiary market after a no-offer off my 2L SA.


congratss!! what is considered "mid-law" and did you get the job via networking or mass mailing? good news is always welcomed, gives me hope that being no-offered a month ago is not the end of the world... even my mom just told me she's worried about me, and she never worries about me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:34 pm

luckyjd wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if good news is OK around here, but I'm leaving the Vale. I'll still be here in spirit, because I know just like all of you how it feels. Was very fortunate to get a midlaw position in a tertiary market after a no-offer off my 2L SA.


congratss!! what is considered "mid-law" and did you get the job via networking or mass mailing? good news is always welcomed, gives me hope that being no-offered a month ago is not the end of the world... even my mom just told me she's worried about me, and she never worries about me.


Networking. I know that sounds lame given all the complaining about networking from above. This came from a contact I never would have expected to be helpful.

Midlaw means 30ish attorneys in a small midwest market. They have a solid litigation practice with good but not amazing clients. Pay just under market for the area.

I've spent the last month since the no-offer thinking I may be done in law before I start. My mom was worried, too. Some of us will make it back, though. Keep at it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The problem with law is that most places simply aren't hiring, and if they're going to, they want deeper contact than an info interview. Biglaw in particular is such a system that info interviews don't really help you subvert the system.

So far I'm finding that I'm getting much better traction with info interviews outside of law.


I've had Biglaw partners forward my resume directly to their hiring committees after meeting me, after which I got a rejection letter within a week in the mail.

1) If the firm simply isn't hiring, there's nothing you can do, and 2) Just because someone is a long-time partner at a law firm doesn't mean he has influence over the hiring committee. The committee consists of several members, and one attorney isn't going to often convince all of them that some guy he met for coffee, etc. is a good hire. Most attorneys not involved with hiring at Biglaw really have no idea or say re: what the firm's criteria for hiring is. Probably don't even know GPA/school rank cutoffs, etc. If you're not on the hiring committee, you don't bother with that stuff. So even if the guy you meet with thinks you'd work out great, it's not a given that he even has any say or involvement in the hiring process.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
luckyjd wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Not sure if good news is OK around here, but I'm leaving the Vale. I'll still be here in spirit, because I know just like all of you how it feels. Was very fortunate to get a midlaw position in a tertiary market after a no-offer off my 2L SA.


congratss!! what is considered "mid-law" and did you get the job via networking or mass mailing? good news is always welcomed, gives me hope that being no-offered a month ago is not the end of the world... even my mom just told me she's worried about me, and she never worries about me.


Networking. I know that sounds lame given all the complaining about networking from above. This came from a contact I never would have expected to be helpful.

Midlaw means 30ish attorneys in a small midwest market. They have a solid litigation practice with good but not amazing clients. Pay just under market for the area.

I've spent the last month since the no-offer thinking I may be done in law before I start. My mom was worried, too. Some of us will make it back, though. Keep at it.

Congrats brother. Comin off a no offer is a shit sammich, but I'm glad it worked out. Real happy for you mang.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:41 pm

JCougar wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The problem with law is that most places simply aren't hiring, and if they're going to, they want deeper contact than an info interview. Biglaw in particular is such a system that info interviews don't really help you subvert the system.

So far I'm finding that I'm getting much better traction with info interviews outside of law.


I've had Biglaw partners forward my resume directly to their hiring committees after meeting me, after which I got a rejection letter within a week in the mail.

1) If the firm simply isn't hiring, there's nothing you can do, and 2) Just because someone is a long-time partner at a law firm doesn't mean he has influence over the hiring committee. The committee consists of several members, and one attorney isn't going to often convince all of them that some guy he met for coffee, etc. is a good hire. Most attorneys not involved with hiring at Biglaw really have no idea or say re: what the firm's criteria for hiring is. Probably don't even know GPA/school rank cutoffs, etc. If you're not on the hiring committee, you don't bother with that stuff. So even if the guy you meet with thinks you'd work out great, it's not a given that he even has any say or involvement in the hiring process.


+1

It took me a few disappointments to realize the truth of this.




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