The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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dr123
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby dr123 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:19 am

Interesting fellowship opportunity for those of you interested in Public service and are looking outside of the legal realm

http://www.pdx.edu/cps/details-of-hatfi ... fellowship

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks, guys. It helps to know that I'm not overreacting or being too sensitive.

And I have no idea what compelled her to do this. Things were great at the end of the year, I was really busy this summer and didn't keep in touch, and then this came up today out of the blue. I suppose she's insecure and wanted to build herself up by tearing me down. Or maybe she's nervous about ending up in my position next year this time and wants to find something "wrong" with me to reassure herself that it won't happen to her.

I think there might be a lot of people out there like her - including many of the people I once counted as friends. I can cut them all out of my life or I can learn to keep this kind of information to myself and stop being open and trusting. Either way, I don't look forward to 3L year where I either avoid everyone or I just smile and deflect all questions or give cryptic answers regarding employment.


This is crazy. Has she had no interaction with other humans for the last 20+ years? If someone had said shit like this to me after my no-offer, I would have flipped.

As far as keeping this to yourself, do it. I told very few people of my predicament, and by November, the entire class knew I didn't have a job.


If law students and lawyers weren't so awkward or pricks, there would be less fodder for ATL and less drinking.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:05 am

I have now failed to obtain any screeners with firms through any sort of OCI, resume collect, etc. thing that my school is offering. If firms don't want me and government is a prestige whore, I don't get who I am supposed to be targeting. The XXX video store?


Dear anonymous poster from a while ago who was talking about clerking for free for a DA's office: I know several people who did that for about 6 months and are now employed full time there.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:17 am

Was in class yesterday, and the professor made us do a dumb introduction. The prompt was simply "Give me some information about you." I was one of the first ones to go and talked about where I'm from and my interests/hobbies. Everyone else got up and basically said "I'm Bob. I worked at [V100 firm] this summer, and I'm excited to go back after graduation this year." Some people even threw in "I am XYZ Executive Editor on my journal, and I'm really excited to get to work on articles!" I found out I was one of only 3 people in a 25 person class who did not do big law last summer and is still looking for a job now. I wish law students would find new ways to define themselves. Now I know I automatically don't like these people, whereas if they led with their love of GoT or zombies or whatever, we could have clicked.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:42 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lukertin » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:10 pm

Jessuf wrote:I have now failed to obtain any screeners with firms through any sort of OCI, resume collect, etc. thing that my school is offering. If firms don't want me and government is a prestige whore, I don't get who I am supposed to be targeting. The XXX video store?

Nonprofits? Non-big law firms? Stuff doesn't always pan out at OCI. My school's OCI (and by extension, CSO) was basically useless. Almost everything I had, I got through somewhere else.

And as for the government being a prestige whore...they aren't that big of a prestige whore. I made it and I'm not preftigious

Was in class yesterday, and the professor made us do a dumb introduction...I wish law students would find new ways to define themselves.

I hated professors who did this. It was always the same shit by everyone. Given that the best way to know who the lawyer is in a room full of people is to let them tell you, I doubt this will ever stop being true for the vast majority of people in this profession.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:40 pm

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Gorki wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2Ls emailing me to ask about my summer experience etc. hate them right now. go away.

This is a thing? wuuuut. I would never in a million years cold e-mail a fellow student to pester them, let alone about finding work in the new economy.


Well, it's moreso students who have screeners or callbacks with the firm I worked with over the summer. They want more information and tips for interviewing. This wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that I don't have an offer with the firm.


That's a minefield for you to navigate. Can you say you just don't have time? Or give generic advice if pushed? You need some kind of references from that firm so you can't go too negative because it can easily be traced back to you.


I told her I don't have time, which is true because I'm still running around like a headless chicken to find a job in-between states of depression. I referred her to someone else who would be able to give her better advice and said I didn't get an offer. It's just salt on the wound that's all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lifesucks » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks, guys. It helps to know that I'm not overreacting or being too sensitive.

And I have no idea what compelled her to do this. Things were great at the end of the year, I was really busy this summer and didn't keep in touch, and then this came up today out of the blue. I suppose she's insecure and wanted to build herself up by tearing me down. Or maybe she's nervous about ending up in my position next year this time and wants to find something "wrong" with me to reassure herself that it won't happen to her.

I think there might be a lot of people out there like her - including many of the people I once counted as friends. I can cut them all out of my life or I can learn to keep this kind of information to myself and stop being open and trusting. Either way, I don't look forward to 3L year where I either avoid everyone or I just smile and deflect all questions or give cryptic answers regarding employment.


Those people will have no friends at the end of life. And I feel you about the avoiding everyone and deflecting questions. I just don't want anyone to talk to me, let alone asking me whether I got an offer.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:45 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Jessuf wrote:Was in class yesterday, and the professor made us do a dumb introduction. The prompt was simply "Give me some information about you." I was one of the first ones to go and talked about where I'm from and my interests/hobbies. Everyone else got up and basically said "I'm Bob. I worked at [V100 firm] this summer, and I'm excited to go back after graduation this year." Some people even threw in "I am XYZ Executive Editor on my journal, and I'm really excited to get to work on articles!" I found out I was one of only 3 people in a 25 person class who did not do big law last summer and is still looking for a job now. I wish law students would find new ways to define themselves. Now I know I automatically don't like these people, whereas if they led with their love of GoT or zombies or whatever, we could have clicked.

Jeez that's the worst. Law students social skills are a special species of retarded.

In a similar situation, I took a seminar, and the prof was like "raise your hand if you've had any experience in this subject." She then had all dozen or so people who had raised their hand (maybe half the class) announce to the whole class what firm they worked for and what office. I was first called and was forced to say the name of the firm that no offered me, of course.


Similar thing happened in my ethics class. Professor asked us to introduce ourselves and if we didn't say where we worked he specifically asked "What firm did you work at and where will you be working post-graduation?" Every time I think about how much I hate law students and lawyers I wonder if I'm that insufferable...I don't think I am, but who knows.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby okinawa » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:52 pm

Jessuf wrote:I have now failed to obtain any screeners with firms through any sort of OCI, resume collect, etc. thing that my school is offering. If firms don't want me and government is a prestige whore, I don't get who I am supposed to be targeting. The XXX video store?


Dear anonymous poster from a while ago who was talking about clerking for free for a DA's office: I know several people who did that for about 6 months and are now employed full time there.


Gov't isn't that into prestige for non-prestigious placements (so, ignore DOJH, SEC, etc). Everywhere else you just need to show some sort of passion for the area. Plus local and state governments almost always hire in-state students, so that's a good choice for you.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:20 pm

okinawa wrote:
Jessuf wrote:I have now failed to obtain any screeners with firms through any sort of OCI, resume collect, etc. thing that my school is offering. If firms don't want me and government is a prestige whore, I don't get who I am supposed to be targeting. The XXX video store?


Dear anonymous poster from a while ago who was talking about clerking for free for a DA's office: I know several people who did that for about 6 months and are now employed full time there.


Gov't isn't that into prestige for non-prestigious placements (so, ignore DOJH, SEC, etc). Everywhere else you just need to show some sort of passion for the area. Plus local and state governments almost always hire in-state students, so that's a good choice for you.

So this is the first time I'm expressing curiosity in a gov't job, so I don't know anything about it. What kind of work is available for law grads at local or state gov't departments, and where can I find more information?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:27 pm

a male human wrote:
okinawa wrote:
Jessuf wrote:I have now failed to obtain any screeners with firms through any sort of OCI, resume collect, etc. thing that my school is offering. If firms don't want me and government is a prestige whore, I don't get who I am supposed to be targeting. The XXX video store?


Dear anonymous poster from a while ago who was talking about clerking for free for a DA's office: I know several people who did that for about 6 months and are now employed full time there.


Gov't isn't that into prestige for non-prestigious placements (so, ignore DOJH, SEC, etc). Everywhere else you just need to show some sort of passion for the area. Plus local and state governments almost always hire in-state students, so that's a good choice for you.

So this is the first time I'm expressing curiosity in a gov't job, so I don't know anything about it. What kind of work is available for law grads at local or state gov't departments, and where can I find more information?


In the middle of nowhere? Plenty. In actual cities? Not much. The Towanda, PA was hiring for both DAs and PDs a month ago. If you're willing to no literally to the middle of nowhere you can land a 35-40K government job. A friend of mine just randomly landed a job in Idaho in a town with like 20K population. Another friend got an entry level PD position in Alaska on some random fishing town with 10K population. If I was single I would 100% take these.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lukertin » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:29 pm

a male human wrote:So this is the first time I'm expressing curiosity in a gov't job, so I don't know anything about it. What kind of work is available for law grads at local or state gov't departments, and where can I find more information?


besides DA, PD and judiciary; in order of likelihood of securing such a position:

Examining / Regulatory staff at administrative agencies
Staff attorneys that give legal advice to legislatures / agencies on various issues that pop up; and represent agencies in court
Staff attorneys to administrative judges; Administrative judges / clerks

USAjobs is for job searching in the federal government, for individual states you'll have to do some looking around.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:34 pm

a male human wrote:
okinawa wrote:
Jessuf wrote:I have now failed to obtain any screeners with firms through any sort of OCI, resume collect, etc. thing that my school is offering. If firms don't want me and government is a prestige whore, I don't get who I am supposed to be targeting. The XXX video store?


Dear anonymous poster from a while ago who was talking about clerking for free for a DA's office: I know several people who did that for about 6 months and are now employed full time there.


Gov't isn't that into prestige for non-prestigious placements (so, ignore DOJH, SEC, etc). Everywhere else you just need to show some sort of passion for the area. Plus local and state governments almost always hire in-state students, so that's a good choice for you.

So this is the first time I'm expressing curiosity in a gov't job, so I don't know anything about it. What kind of work is available for law grads at local or state gov't departments, and where can I find more information?


You should have access to the Arizona handbook, which contains a lot of info about potential openings and programs for entry level.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby okinawa » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:39 pm

a male human wrote:So this is the first time I'm expressing curiosity in a gov't job, so I don't know anything about it. What kind of work is available for law grads at local or state gov't departments, and where can I find more information?

If you are a 3L, the Arizona guide is good for federal hiring. If you aren't, most fed hiring that is non-Honors is frozen, but you can see on USAjobs if something pops up. Mostly likely a semi-legal but not JD-required job.

If you are looking for state, there isn't really a central info guide. Google your state AG, DA, PD, etc. Look on wikipedia for the structure of your state government and just go to the websites of different agencies and click on "jobs" or "careers."

If you have zero gov't experience it's a tough sell but you can start volunteering part-time while you look for other work to hedge your bets. Also EJW is still open to register for and some local/state gov'ts come there, mostly PD type.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:40 pm

a male human wrote:So this is the first time I'm expressing curiosity in a gov't job, so I don't know anything about it. What kind of work is available for law grads at local or state gov't departments, and where can I find more information?


PD positions in many states basically informally require law grads to volunteer for months in order to sort of create a place for themselves in the slow state hiring hierarchy. So in some states, if you can get your foot in the door as a volunteer and you do a decent job and aren't a social mutant, you're pretty much guaranteed a job- the only question is when. I know a girl who did this at a PD office and had to hang around for over a year before she got an hourly part time temporary position as a result. But now she makes $70k+, just over a year later. Once you get paid by a state government, it's pretty hard to get fired and can be pretty easy to advance. (Although around here, that $70k mark is about as far as you'll get until you qualify for a management position in 10-20 years)

If this sounds like an enticing career path, the downside for you might be that it could be very difficult to get that initial volunteer position if your resume doesn't really show a committed interest to the field in question. This is most true for PD offices, somewhat true for DA, and idk how it applies to others.

I was doing this after graduation and planned for the long haul until I got an offer from an entirely different office. I have to say, as much as it sucks to not get paid, I would rather put on a tie and go to an office every day than sit at home in a constant state of despair.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:25 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:In the middle of nowhere? Plenty. In actual cities? Not much. The Towanda, PA was hiring for both DAs and PDs a month ago. If you're willing to no literally to the middle of nowhere you can land a 35-40K government job. A friend of mine just randomly landed a job in Idaho in a town with like 20K population. Another friend got an entry level PD position in Alaska on some random fishing town with 10K population. If I was single I would 100% take these.


A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:In the middle of nowhere? Plenty. In actual cities? Not much. The Towanda, PA was hiring for both DAs and PDs a month ago. If you're willing to no literally to the middle of nowhere you can land a 35-40K government job. A friend of mine just randomly landed a job in Idaho in a town with like 20K population. Another friend got an entry level PD position in Alaska on some random fishing town with 10K population. If I was single I would 100% take these.


A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.


The bigger problem is that you had to take the bar somewhere and can't work other places now. If I was single and the bar wasnt an issue I would literally scope out every single DA/PD office in small counties (I know there are 100, bu guess what, I have the time) and contact their office manager. I remember reading somewhere that certain counties in SD didnt even have a PD and had to "rent" them out from other counties for trials for ridiculous fees. I have to warn though that you may end up in small villages. Literally. Both my friends that did this got jobs, but they are living in the middle of nowhere and can't wait to leave.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby okinawa » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.

You still have to have a resume that suggests you're qualified for the job and probably ties to the area. It's not like every random T20 graduate can call a podunk local gov't office and waltz into a job. It's more like, if you have experience or clinics in that type of office, a demonstrable willingness to live in that area, and put in the effort to fill out dozens of applications, it's an easier job to get than many others. But the local gov't still has to be hiring, and you have to have something on your resume that suggests it's not a last-chance job that you're completely unqualified for.

I don't know of a single PD office that hires people who haven't done a PD internship/clinic, for example.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gorki » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:42 pm

Word of advice tho is if you have the willpower and endurance, take applying to tertiary and fly-over PD/CountyClerk jobs seriously. Form cover letters if you have no time, but if you can devise some connection and meaningful sentence or two then you really ought to do it.

Yeah these podunk gigs do like prestige to an extent, but keep in mind that state probably has an LS, that LS probably has over 90% of its grads unemployed, and thus many of their top students are gunning for what everyone else in the USA might consider "fodder."

I live in such an area; will prob be me after 3L.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:43 pm

okinawa wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.

You still have to have a resume that suggests you're qualified for the job and probably ties to the area. It's not like every random T20 graduate can call a podunk local gov't office and waltz into a job. It's more like, if you have experience or clinics in that type of office, a demonstrable willingness to live in that area, and put in the effort to fill out dozens of applications, it's an easier job to get than many others. But the local gov't still has to be hiring, and you have to have something on your resume that suggests it's not a last-chance job that you're completely unqualified for.

I don't know of a single PD office that hires people who haven't done a PD internship/clinic, for example.


(Poster from above). I agree with this mainly. However, ties to the area still seem to be pretty important.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:17 pm

okinawa wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.

You still have to have a resume that suggests you're qualified for the job and probably ties to the area. It's not like every random T20 graduate can call a podunk local gov't office and waltz into a job. It's more like, if you have experience or clinics in that type of office, a demonstrable willingness to live in that area, and put in the effort to fill out dozens of applications, it's an easier job to get than many others. But the local gov't still has to be hiring, and you have to have something on your resume that suggests it's not a last-chance job that you're completely unqualified for.

I don't know of a single PD office that hires people who haven't done a PD internship/clinic, for example.

I know of one, but I had ties, taken all the crim classes (I think), and worked for crim defense firms before school. Oki is right. Without a crim background, you're at a serious disadvantage.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:27 pm

rad lulz wrote:
okinawa wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.

You still have to have a resume that suggests you're qualified for the job and probably ties to the area. It's not like every random T20 graduate can call a podunk local gov't office and waltz into a job. It's more like, if you have experience or clinics in that type of office, a demonstrable willingness to live in that area, and put in the effort to fill out dozens of applications, it's an easier job to get than many others. But the local gov't still has to be hiring, and you have to have something on your resume that suggests it's not a last-chance job that you're completely unqualified for.

I don't know of a single PD office that hires people who haven't done a PD internship/clinic, for example.

I know of one, but I had ties, taken all the crim classes (I think), and worked for crim defense firms before school. Oki is right. Without a crim background, you're at a serious disadvantage.


I'm not arguing with this at all.
I'm just disputing the talking point that if you have this background and are willing to work in a rural area, it is not difficult to score a DA/PD gig. Without any ties to these random areas, it does not seem so easy. Plus the funding is usually not there.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
okinawa wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A lot of people seem to claim that if you want to work for local/state gov't and are willing to live in a rural place, it is an easy job to land. I have not found this to be the case at all.

You still have to have a resume that suggests you're qualified for the job and probably ties to the area. It's not like every random T20 graduate can call a podunk local gov't office and waltz into a job. It's more like, if you have experience or clinics in that type of office, a demonstrable willingness to live in that area, and put in the effort to fill out dozens of applications, it's an easier job to get than many others. But the local gov't still has to be hiring, and you have to have something on your resume that suggests it's not a last-chance job that you're completely unqualified for.

I don't know of a single PD office that hires people who haven't done a PD internship/clinic, for example.

I know of one, but I had ties, taken all the crim classes (I think), and worked for crim defense firms before school. Oki is right. Without a crim background, you're at a serious disadvantage.


I'm not arguing with this at all.
I'm just disputing the talking point that if you have this background and are willing to work in a rural area, it is not difficult to score a DA/PD gig. Without any ties to these random areas, it does not seem so easy. Plus the funding is usually not there.

Ya I think us three are all in agreement there

The funding issue is big too. Some of these places barely hire at all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby jessuf » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:56 pm

So here is my legal resume:
-Housing clinic for non-profit legal org
-Fed dist ct judge
-FCC
-RA on really random areas of law
-DOJ - Antitrust, Criminal Division
-Law clerk doing antitrust stuff at a firm
-Law clerk doing in-house counsel stuff
-Public defender clinic

I have no idea what I am supposed to be targeting here. I don't have a resume that screams any specific area of law, nor have I taken classes that are geared towards a specific area of law. I have pretty much applied for everything that has come to campus for interviews, but I only have fed. gov. screeners so far for positions I know I am really underqualified for. All of the mid-law places that came to campus had no interest in giving me a screener. I spent most of my summer applying to state court and fed. magistrate clerkships, but I have so far received 0 calls.

I have okay stats. T14, LR editor, around top quarter. What should I be doing right now, aside from applying to everything on Symplicity? Should I start trying to meet with alumni doing coffee dates, or should I do that later on in the year?




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