The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

[okinawa]

Not no-offered, just worked for a public interest employer last summer that, because of budget cuts/sequester etc. cannot possibly hire all of their interns for FTLT positions.

Oh, well in that case, don't even worry about talking to other people. Everyone knows that PI/Gov't hiring is on a later cycle. Not that being no-offered should be shameful, of course, but a lot of people see it as sort of a, "you must have done something stupid" issue even when it's not. Not getting an offer for public interest is expected, not a black mark.

[Anonymous User]

Not no-offered, just worked for a public interest employer last summer that, because of budget cuts/sequester etc. cannot possibly hire all of their interns for FTLT positions.

Oh, well in that case, don't even worry about talking to other people. Everyone knows that PI/Gov't hiring is on a later cycle. Not that being no-offered should be shameful, of course, but a lot of people see it as sort of a, "you must have done something stupid" issue even when it's not. Not getting an offer for public interest is expected, not a black mark.

Thanks! I mean, I definitely wasn't expecting an offer in the first place considering the nature of my employer, it's just disrespectful and annoying as hell for people to joke about "3LOL", brag about their expensive "bar trips" in exotic locales, and how awesome it is that they can completely slack off this year because they have a cushy, $160K job waiting for them. The no fb thing is good for my own productivity, as well.

Does law school attract a disproportionately high number of douchebags? Or does the high-stakes, cutthroat environment bring it out of otherwise decent human beings? The world will never know.

[a male human]

Not no-offered, just worked for a public interest employer last summer that, because of budget cuts/sequester etc. cannot possibly hire all of their interns for FTLT positions.

Oh, well in that case, don't even worry about talking to other people. Everyone knows that PI/Gov't hiring is on a later cycle. Not that being no-offered should be shameful, of course, but a lot of people see it as sort of a, "you must have done something stupid" issue even when it's not. Not getting an offer for public interest is expected, not a black mark.

Thanks! I mean, I definitely wasn't expecting an offer in the first place considering the nature of my employer, it's just disrespectful and annoying as hell for people to joke about "3LOL", brag about their expensive "bar trips" in exotic locales, and how awesome it is that they can completely slack off this year because they have a cushy, $160K job waiting for them. The no fb thing is good for my own productivity, as well.

Does law school attract a disproportionately high number of douchebags? Or does the high-stakes, cutthroat environment bring it out of otherwise decent human beings? The world will never know.

I think the type to get $160k offers is sometimes like that in the first place, unfortunately.

[okinawa]

I knew someone who was no offered after 2L summer and spend all of 3L looking for a job. He finally gets something, I don't remember if it was right before the bar or right after but well into the summer. The first week at his job, he starts bragging on facebook about all the perks he's getting, how great it is, etc. Man. If almost a year of being in that position doesn't foster a sense of self-awareness for those who are struggling, you know, some empathy, nothing will.

[Anonymous User]

There was this one girl when she started her 2L biglaw summer associate job who posted a picture showing off a flower in her nice office. Her orientation booklet or whatever with the firm logo was also conveniently within the frame of the picture.

[BlueLotus]

I knew someone who was no offered after 2L summer and spend all of 3L looking for a job. He finally gets something, I don't remember if it was right before the bar or right after but well into the summer. The first week at his job, he starts bragging on facebook about all the perks he's getting, how great it is, etc. Man. If almost a year of being in that position doesn't foster a sense of self-awareness for those who are struggling, you know, some empathy, nothing will.

:Sigh: Our profession is overrun with large egos.

[Cyne]

I knew someone who was no offered after 2L summer and spend all of 3L looking for a job. He finally gets something, I don't remember if it was right before the bar or right after but well into the summer. The first week at his job, he starts bragging on facebook about all the perks he's getting, how great it is, etc. Man. If almost a year of being in that position doesn't foster a sense of self-awareness for those who are struggling, you know, some empathy, nothing will.

If I ever do that I hope somebody hits me upside the head with a crowbar to knock me back to reality.

[NYstate]

How to get over the shame of my circumstances? I so dread facing my classmates on Monday and hearing all their excited chatter about jerbs, interviews, callbacks, grades, journal, etc. Fuck that shit. I'm fine with volunteering my ass off, putting my nose to the grindstone w/r/t the job search, and being a total hermit at school this year. I never had really close friends here to begin with, anyway. Even blocked my facebook so I could avoid pricks like the d00d Void described. (I go to BU/BC, so I'd probably run into more of those gloating, self-absorbed Cape Cod types )

I know NYstate and others remind the Valers that our self-worth isn't tied to whether we have a job lined up, our rank/grades, etc. but truly believing that deep in your heart is easier said than done...thank God for this thread, tho. Otherwise I would feel so alone. I mean, I do have my family's support and I love and appreciate them dearly, but they're typical boomers who have no idea about today's legal job market.

I know it's tough dude but keep your head up. I'm willing to assume that a decent portion of your class don't have jobs. I understand people don't want to talk about joblessness which is understandable. But unless you go to Yale (or possibly Stanford and even these schools have people who are looking for government or PI jobs), there will be people without jobs. Based on statistics, there is no way that you are alone in your class.

It would be great if jobless 3Ls could support each other or at least get the douches to shut up. I read somewhere on this forum that when Columbia would try to do some kind of job hunting seminar for 3Ls no one would go because they don't want people to know they are unemployed. ( not that the seminar would have been useful.) this shame of not having a job is in part a product of OCI and the false belief that getting an SA means you have a job. ( there are people who are ashamed to admit they don't have call backs.)

I guess my point is that no one is the only unemployed person at their school. Most likely there are a significant number of unemployed people, all for different reasons, but because there arent enough fucking jobs. Maybe it helps to look at your classmates and remember that you aren't alone even though no one else is talking about looking for jobs.

I'm not going to give advice other than this: be sure to get some kind of supportive counseling even if you think you don't need it; and, I think that last fall, when people started to post about no offers, other people followed. Maybe posting about it helps and maybe talking about it with other jobless classmates might help.

I hate that people feel ashamed about not having a job in this economy. I understand anxiety and all those feelings, but shame is not justified and just kills your self-esteem.

[NYstate]

There was this one girl when she started her 2L biglaw summer associate job who posted a picture showing off a flower in her nice office. Her orientation booklet or whatever with the firm logo was also conveniently within the frame of the picture.

Lol. Turn that Facebook shit off. They arent going to change. I would post that stuff in the Facebook rage thread.

[unc0mm0n1]

I guess I always viewed it differently. I was happy for my friends when they did well. I like to hear that people are getting what they want. Talking about your new job is what normal people do, I think the line is asking other people what they are doing when you kn ow it's likely they don't have a job. I remember when I graduated from college, most of my friends had jobs and I didn't. It was really difficult but I was still happy that my friends weren't in the same position I was. Unless it gets to the point of insufferable bragging (like some of the FB post discussed in this thread) I don't care if my friends let me know something good has happened in their life..

[NYstate]

I guess I always viewed it differently. I was happy for my friends when they did well. I like to hear that people are getting what they want. Talking about your new job is what normal people do, I think the line is asking other people what they are doing when you kn ow it's likely they don't have a job. I remember when I graduated from college, most of my friends had jobs and I didn't. It was really difficult but I was still happy that my friends weren't in the same position I was. Unless it gets to the point of insufferable bragging (like some of the FB post discussed in this thread) I don't care if my friends let me know something good has happened in their life..

Here is a question: are most people who have jobs judging people who don't? As if there must be something wrong with them if they don't have a job? Or are people putting a lot of this judgement on themselves?

I don't know the answer to that. Probably most people are only worried about themselves and don't really think twice about it. There will always be douches though. Ignoring douches is a key to sanity in my life.

It doesn't make it easier to hear people go on and on about their great lives when your future is uncertain. It's not that you can't be happy for them. It's more that its just a very painful reminder. Even rad, who seems very sociable, said he withdrew from people and social life. It can be a protective mechanism I guess. I don't think people should become hermits out of shame though.

I mean I'm a grad with a job and I still found those posts about great bar trips annoying. Just jealousy on my part, I guess, but it can get to be insufferable .

[unc0mm0n1]

I guess I always viewed it differently. I was happy for my friends when they did well. I like to hear that people are getting what they want. Talking about your new job is what normal people do, I think the line is asking other people what they are doing when you kn ow it's likely they don't have a job. I remember when I graduated from college, most of my friends had jobs and I didn't. It was really difficult but I was still happy that my friends weren't in the same position I was. Unless it gets to the point of insufferable bragging (like some of the FB post discussed in this thread) I don't care if my friends let me know something good has happened in their life..

Here is a question: are most people who have jobs judging people who don't? As if there must be something wrong with them if they don't have a job? Or are people putting a lot of this judgement on themselves?

I don't know the answer to that. Probably most people are only worried about themselves and don't really think twice about it. There will always be douches though. Ignoring douches is a key to sanity in my life.

It doesn't make it easier to hear people go on and on about their great lives when your future is uncertain. It's not that you can't be happy for them. It's more that its just a very painful reminder. Even rad, who seems very sociable, said he withdrew from people and social life. It can be a protective mechanism I guess. I don't think people should become hermits out of shame though.

I mean I'm a grad with a job and I still found those posts about great bar trips annoying. Just jealousy on my part, I guess, but it can get to be insufferable .

I do think there is a line between mentioning something and bragging. For instance a friend of mine just went to Paris for their honeymoon and posted on facebook. I don't find that bragging. Whereas I have another friend that is studying Cambridge and posts everyday about how it is so much different (i.e. better) than American schools because of this or that and how they wish "everybody had such an amazing opportunity", that is insufferable bragging that makes them seem like a douche.

[lawhopeful10]

I guess I always viewed it differently. I was happy for my friends when they did well. I like to hear that people are getting what they want. Talking about your new job is what normal people do, I think the line is asking other people what they are doing when you kn ow it's likely they don't have a job. I remember when I graduated from college, most of my friends had jobs and I didn't. It was really difficult but I was still happy that my friends weren't in the same position I was. Unless it gets to the point of insufferable bragging (like some of the FB post discussed in this thread) I don't care if my friends let me know something good has happened in their life..

Yea when people post Facebook statuses they shouldn't need to factor in the personal circumstance of every one of their fb friends before doing so. They probably want to their friends and family to see they are doing well and like poster above said most people who are really their friend or care about them will be happy for their success. Now if someone knows you are still looking for a job and rubs it in your face in a conversation as some people have said has happened than yes the douchebag title is completely appropriate. Also multiple Facebook posts all the time even on all subjects always left me thinking no one cares stop. But one post saying I finally got a job probably isn't too much. Most of their fb friends probably aren't from law school anyway.
Edit: I agree with the distinction made above

[Void]

I have to say I agree that just posting "I finally got a job with X!" Is totally fine. Maybe it's because I went to a second tier toilet, and most of my friends didnt graduate with jobs, so we're all basically in the same boat. In a way, that kind of posting is almost the same as when people come into this thread and say "finally got an offer. It can happen to you- dont give up!" When my friends get jobs I am happy for them, and even if it made me a little jealous I would still rather know than not.

That said, it's definitely a dick move to confront the jobless (or perceived jobless) about their joblessness, and also maybe kind of douchey to make multiple statuses about how awesome your job is.

[BarbellDreams]

I disagree. I think unless you've been living under a rock you know how bad the market is. If you're not completely socially awkward that alone should tell you that posting anything on facebook is gonna make you look bad. I am usually of the opinion that if I like the person themselves I am happy that they found a job. Just don't post about it, be a little bit more socially aware.

[Headybrah]

Have a callback interview with a 30ish person litigation boutique in a tertiary market. Small firm, regional clients, but they pay what appears to be "market" for that area. Made the connection through a friend. I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

I know that feel bro, but congrats on the interview. It's good that you're getting some movement. Crush it.

Thanks, dude. They're flying my wife in too so we can check out the city together, so I think they're pretty serious. Gonna do my best.

I ended up at a firm like this, and it could definitely be worse. Congrats dude. Look at it this way, even though the market rate is lower in these kinds of cities, you can rent a palace for $900.

Hey, thanks for sharing your experience. Are you happy? Have you tried to or thought about lateraling? The way I look at it is that partnership prospects may be better? Trying to look on the bright side.

Yeah they sound serious. Good luck man

Starting with a firm like this in a few months. The way I saw it:

1). I loved the people and quality of life where I am moving. It was first firm I interviewed at where I called the GF and said that the people I met were awesome, not stuck up and I wasn't putting on an act to try to get the job. Not where I imagined Id be at this stage in my life - but where I wanted to raise a family. Guess moving there right away could be a good thing for maturity and what not.

2). You'll be doing quality legal work, getting important experience and that will be key because once the boomers start to retire and there is movement in the firms (more people moving to partner) - there is going to be a higher demand for lawyers with 3-6 years of substantive experience and since 50% of our classes are getting 0 real legal experience, your shot at moving, if you don't like where you end up is potentially better.

3). You'll learn quickly how to be a lawyer because you will be given important work and tasks earlier than your peers at big firms. These smaller tertiary market firms seem to only hire as needed - and projects are staffed leanly so what you do will be used and important.

4). Less competition? It seems like if I do competent work and stay with my firm I'll make partner.


host of other benefits I've slowly discovered - but for me I just love the quality of life, people and ability to get great experience. Sure the clients won't all be fortune 500 companies, but many of their problems and issues will be similar to those of fortune 500 companies but on a smaller scale (could be wrong I dunno). For me, putting aside the ego/prestige BS of lawschool, this seemed like an amazing deal. I make market (much less than NYC etc...) but also bill 400-800 hrs fewer than big city peers. Looking forward to having a life again.

[Anonymous User]

Have a callback interview with a 30ish person litigation boutique in a tertiary market. Small firm, regional clients, but they pay what appears to be "market" for that area. Made the connection through a friend. I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

Starting with a firm like this in a few months. The way I saw it:

1). I loved the people and quality of life where I am moving. It was first firm I interviewed at where I called the GF and said that the people I met were awesome, not stuck up and I wasn't putting on an act to try to get the job. Not where I imagined Id be at this stage in my life - but where I wanted to raise a family. Guess moving there right away could be a good thing for maturity and what not.

2). You'll be doing quality legal work, getting important experience and that will be key because once the boomers start to retire and there is movement in the firms (more people moving to partner) - there is going to be a higher demand for lawyers with 3-6 years of substantive experience and since 50% of our classes are getting 0 real legal experience, your shot at moving, if you don't like where you end up is potentially better.

3). You'll learn quickly how to be a lawyer because you will be given important work and tasks earlier than your peers at big firms. These smaller tertiary market firms seem to only hire as needed - and projects are staffed leanly so what you do will be used and important.

4). Less competition? It seems like if I do competent work and stay with my firm I'll make partner.


host of other benefits I've slowly discovered - but for me I just love the quality of life, people and ability to get great experience. Sure the clients won't all be fortune 500 companies, but many of their problems and issues will be similar to those of fortune 500 companies but on a smaller scale (could be wrong I dunno). For me, putting aside the ego/prestige BS of lawschool, this seemed like an amazing deal. I make market (much less than NYC etc...) but also bill 400-800 hrs fewer than big city peers. Looking forward to having a life again.

That's really great to hear. Thanks for the perspective, congrats on the job, and good luck!

[okinawa]

I do think there is a line between mentioning something and bragging. For instance a friend of mine just went to Paris for their honeymoon and posted on facebook. I don't find that bragging. Whereas I have another friend that is studying Cambridge and posts everyday about how it is so much different (i.e. better) than American schools because of this or that and how they wish "everybody had such an amazing opportunity", that is insufferable bragging that makes them seem like a douche.

I've never minded "I got X job!" posts; I think it's great to hear that people I know are finding work. What is insufferable is posting pictures of champagne bottles and smug comments when announcing an offer, pictures of the care package firms send with some comment about how your firm is the best in the world (with hashtags), 7-10 comments in a single week about all the great things your firm and its partners are doing for you, repeatedly bragging about how much money you are making or spending (yes, including pictures of paychecks), pictures of an expensive clothing spending spree hashtag your firm name, etc. I mean, this is basic stuff that normal people outside of the insufferable don't do.

[Anonymous User]

I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

I'm the top 5 from the T-14 that's been posting here. This captures how I feel. Was told by CSO on Friday that my only hope is starting $60,000 to $70,000 at a shitlaw sweatshop and angling to move up to a second tier firm after three or four years. Pretty certain the career's over at this point because I can't bring myself to do that--with my level of debt, it doesn't make sense, especially in light of the hours and stress such a job entails. Got nothing for clerkships. I'm about 99% certain it's because of the employment situation. Was directly asked about it by a 9th Circuit and Central District of California judge (truth be told, it was the clerks who asked), and it came up in other circuit judge interviews as well.

Am starting to have fantasies about some top firm seeing my posts and contacting me with a job/interview invitation. Also fantasize about going on food stamps and using my story to become a special contributor to AbovetheLaw.

[BarbellDreams]

One person I graduated with posted a pic of a biglaw conference room and the view with the comment along the lines of "It always sucks to go to work, but at least I get to work in style". Hope a train runs you over on the way home.

[Cyne]

I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

I'm the top 5 from the T-14 that's been posting here. This captures how I feel. Was told by CSO on Friday that my only hope is starting $60,000 to $70,000 at a shitlaw sweatshop and angling to move up to a second tier firm after three or four years. Pretty certain the career's over at this point because I can't bring myself to do that--with my level of debt, it doesn't make sense, especially in light of the hours and stress such a job entails. Got nothing for clerkships. I'm about 99% certain it's because of the employment situation. Was directly asked about it by a 9th Circuit and Central District of California judge (truth be told, it was the clerks who asked), and it came up in other circuit judge interviews as well.

Am starting to have fantasies about some top firm seeing my posts and contacting me with a job/interview invitation. Also fantasize about going on food stamps and using my story to become a special contributor to AbovetheLaw.

Yo dude, it ain't shit if it pays the bills. Not sure about your level of debt (mine is atrocious), but I would kill for that kind of position. Some people make it pay more than the bills. I remember there was some guy called utlaw who posted a good thread on just being a solo, much less having a starting point.

Try to clerk for a mid-sized firm in your region during the school year if you can. With your creds it should be possible to get. After kicking ass, you might become part of the team and get offered. Not all mid-law places use SA programs, I'd target those that don't.

I think we need to remember that as attorneys we don't necessarily have a ceiling to our endgame income.

Reading your story is heartbreaking, but keep your chin up best you can. We are suffering these days, try to take solace in the fact that you are not alone.

[Anonymous User]

I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

I'm the top 5 from the T-14 that's been posting here. This captures how I feel. Was told by CSO on Friday that my only hope is starting $60,000 to $70,000 at a shitlaw sweatshop and angling to move up to a second tier firm after three or four years. Pretty certain the career's over at this point because I can't bring myself to do that--with my level of debt, it doesn't make sense, especially in light of the hours and stress such a job entails. Got nothing for clerkships. I'm about 99% certain it's because of the employment situation. Was directly asked about it by a 9th Circuit and Central District of California judge (truth be told, it was the clerks who asked), and it came up in other circuit judge interviews as well.

Am starting to have fantasies about some top firm seeing my posts and contacting me with a job/interview invitation. Also fantasize about going on food stamps and using my story to become a special contributor to AbovetheLaw.

I really think you should keep applying for clerkships, especially with your stats. Start blanketing every judge that's still hiring, including state courts. I really think you will get something. Some judges may care about offers, but I know for a fact that not all do. You may have to take an offer for a year out, but then you can just look for some kind of menial job to help you pay the bills until then. I know it's easier said than done, but keep your head up.

[Void]

I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

I'm the top 5 from the T-14 that's been posting here. This captures how I feel. Was told by CSO on Friday that my only hope is starting $60,000 to $70,000 at a shitlaw sweatshop and angling to move up to a second tier firm after three or four years. Pretty certain the career's over at this point because I can't bring myself to do that--with my level of debt, it doesn't make sense, especially in light of the hours and stress such a job entails. Got nothing for clerkships. I'm about 99% certain it's because of the employment situation. Was directly asked about it by a 9th Circuit and Central District of California judge (truth be told, it was the clerks who asked), and it came up in other circuit judge interviews as well.

Am starting to have fantasies about some top firm seeing my posts and contacting me with a job/interview invitation. Also fantasize about going on food stamps and using my story to become a special contributor to AbovetheLaw.

I understand that it sucks to realize you're going to have to settle for less than you feel like you deserve, but dude- if you can get $60k for shitlaw you're better off than being unemployed and focusing your entire life upon feeling sorry for yourself. Life didnt hand you an opportunity, so get out there and make it happen.

P.S. speaking of being insensitive, kind of a dick move to come into this thread and complain about settling for $60-70k when lots of dudes here would claw their own eyes out for a gig like that.

[BarbellDreams]

P.S. speaking of being insensitive, kind of a dick move to come into this thread and complain about settling for $60-70k when lots of dudes here would claw their own eyes out for a gig like that.

This. There are very few things I wouldn't do for that job.

[Anonymous User]

Have a callback interview with a 30ish person litigation boutique in a tertiary market. Small firm, regional clients, but they pay what appears to be "market" for that area. Made the connection through a friend. I never imagined myself living in a place like this, but being part of this thread is making me appreciate how lucky I am to have the opportunity. My credentials would have given me interviews at most firms in the country last year, but it's amazing how one year and a no-offer make such a difference.

I know that feel bro, but congrats on the interview. It's good that you're getting some movement. Crush it.

Thanks, dude. They're flying my wife in too so we can check out the city together, so I think they're pretty serious. Gonna do my best.

I ended up at a firm like this, and it could definitely be worse. Congrats dude. Look at it this way, even though the market rate is lower in these kinds of cities, you can rent a palace for $900.

Hey, thanks for sharing your experience. Are you happy? Have you tried to or thought about lateraling? The way I look at it is that partnership prospects may be better? Trying to look on the bright side.

I'm actually just getting started, so it's too early to tell if I'm happy, but the people seem great so far. Lateraling isn't really something I'm considering. My firm is tops in the (admittedly small) market, so there's really nowhere better to go for the time being. Jury's still very much out on what it's like to move to a tertiary market where I don't know anybody and enjoy the city. So far though I dig it. Great food, people are nice, and everything's cheap. It just gets really annoying to deal wi everyone from home saying "Oh man, why did you move there??"

All in all through, definitely could be tons worse. It beats the Vale, and there are worse things than being a big fish in a small pond.