The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Void
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:04 pm

okinawa wrote:
Void wrote:This. One of my employed "friends" from law school was busting my balls on FB about how I was still unemployed (even though I am not- he just thinks I am because guess what? I don't post that shit on facebook because I know that like 90% of my classmates are still jobless). Fuck that guy.

I can't even comprehend what kind of person would do that to another human. What would motivate that, other than pure sociopathy?


He said "I feel for you, but I gotta say it must be nice to have all that free time." He's a preppy Vineyard Vines-wearing cuntface from fucking Cape Cod with a permagrin and a "I'm hip because I talk to the help" kind of vibe.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:09 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
deadpanic wrote:Talked with Career Services today. "A lot more jobs will open up after bar results."

Are they just saying this to make you feel better or is there any truth to this? Right now, there are just no jobs whether you are licensed or not. I can't see that changing all of a sudden once bar results are released.


This x 1000. Logically this makes no sense to me. I get that employers might be more WILLING to hir when results are out, but the # of postings and jobs from now to then wont magically increase.


My theory is that OCS says this so that alumni will bother them less so they can concentrate on OCI and finding their 2Ls and 3Ls jobs.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:13 pm

Void wrote:
okinawa wrote:
Void wrote:This. One of my employed "friends" from law school was busting my balls on FB about how I was still unemployed (even though I am not- he just thinks I am because guess what? I don't post that shit on facebook because I know that like 90% of my classmates are still jobless). Fuck that guy.

I can't even comprehend what kind of person would do that to another human. What would motivate that, other than pure sociopathy?


He said "I feel for you, but I gotta say it must be nice to have all that free time." He's a preppy Vineyard Vines-wearing cuntface from fucking Cape Cod with a permagrin and a "I'm hip because I talk to the help" kind of vibe.

Dude sounds insufferable.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gorki » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:00 pm

TTH wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
deadpanic wrote:Talked with Career Services today. "A lot more jobs will open up after bar results."

Are they just saying this to make you feel better or is there any truth to this? Right now, there are just no jobs whether you are licensed or not. I can't see that changing all of a sudden once bar results are released.


This x 1000. Logically this makes no sense to me. I get that employers might be more WILLING to hir when results are out, but the # of postings and jobs from now to then wont magically increase.


My theory is that OCS says this so that alumni will bother them less so they can concentrate on OCI and finding their 2Ls and 3Ls jobsthemselves a way off the sinking lawl skoo ship.


Fixed this to reflect my experiences w/my school's OCS. They are the worst with the "oh soon enough there will be jobs bullshit." Basically urging students to just stop mass mailing and applying and just wait for the right job to magically appear out of the blue.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:59 pm

My mom said I should just open a firm. The convo went like this:

"You should just open your own practice."
"And then what?"
"Well, then you'll have a job."
"Yeah, but how in the world will I get clients or know what I'm doing?"
"Well once you open your firm you'll have clients."
"How mom? How? Seriously, I can open a firm today. Here, its open. Now what? No one knows who I am or cares about what I do. Do you want me to just sit by the phone and hope it rings? No one will show up."
"Well, you have to get your name out there."
"Oh, so you mean network? Yeah, I've heard that one before."
"Well Sandy's son decided he is opening up his own firm so if he can do it you should be able to do it. My son is more talented than Jason."

Yeah, this is what I deal with during every single phone call.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:21 pm

How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:28 pm

a male human wrote:How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.


I deal with it by being realistic and realizing that there is absolutely nothing more I can do. I sometimes stay up till like 9 pm looking for jobs and have probably have sent out over 50 apps for listed positions that I qualify for, but in the end its a numbers game, and 50% of us will NOT find employment. I get really sick of explaining all this to my family though cause unless you're in it you don't understand the magnitude of what "the legal market sucks" means. My parents still always say "If you apply yourself and look hard enough you will land a great job".

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:54 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:My parents still always say "If you apply yourself and look hard enough you will land a great job".



My mom's like this. My dad's a retired commercial pilot, and he saw the jerb market for pilots implode while the number of student pilots still increased. He at least gets the hiring game, but he thinks that the mythical $10 million judgment will allow me to retire.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:57 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
a male human wrote:How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.


I deal with it by being realistic and realizing that there is absolutely nothing more I can do. I sometimes stay up till like 9 pm looking for jobs and have probably have sent out over 50 apps for listed positions that I qualify for, but in the end its a numbers game, and 50% of us will NOT find employment. I get really sick of explaining all this to my family though cause unless you're in it you don't understand the magnitude of what "the legal market sucks" means. My parents still always say "If you apply yourself and look hard enough you will land a great job".

Do you do networking and informational interviews and stuff? I did a few IIs, and while people are nice about giving me advice ("keep at it!"), I don't know how other people manage to materialize a job out of them. My GPA sucks, but someone out there would look the other way in light of my resume, right?

Today my head constantly felt like it's being squeezed, like when you're about to cry.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:59 pm

Have a 2nd/final interview scheduled for one exciting, solid position and had a good first interview for another potentially interesting position this week, and have locked in (mind-numbing) full-time work at $20/hr for at least through October and likely after that.

Still get night terrors about bar results/loans/budgeting/the job search.

The other thing is that the 2 interviews I've had were for wildly different areas of law/types of employers and I honestly can't tell which one I'd be more into if salary/etc. were equal. I think I'm so desensitized by this job search I'm not even sure what I'm genuinely interested in.

Trying to focus on the positives and enjoy down time, but it's rough.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Have a 2nd/final interview scheduled for one exciting, solid position and had a good first interview for another potentially interesting position this week, and have locked in (mind-numbing) full-time work at $20/hr for at least through October and likely after that.

Still get night terrors about bar results/loans/budgeting/the job search.

The other thing is that the 2 interviews I've had were for wildly different areas of law/types of employers and I honestly can't tell which one I'd be more into if salary/etc. were equal. I think I'm so desensitized by this job search I'm not even sure what I'm genuinely interested in.

Trying to focus on the positives and enjoy down time, but it's rough.

If you don't mind, can you elaborate on how you got those interviews? Is the $20 one doc review?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:21 pm

a male human wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
a male human wrote:How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.


I deal with it by being realistic and realizing that there is absolutely nothing more I can do. I sometimes stay up till like 9 pm looking for jobs and have probably have sent out over 50 apps for listed positions that I qualify for, but in the end its a numbers game, and 50% of us will NOT find employment. I get really sick of explaining all this to my family though cause unless you're in it you don't understand the magnitude of what "the legal market sucks" means. My parents still always say "If you apply yourself and look hard enough you will land a great job".

Do you do networking and informational interviews and stuff? I did a few IIs, and while people are nice about giving me advice ("keep at it!"), I don't know how other people manage to materialize a job out of them. My GPA sucks, but someone out there would look the other way in light of my resume, right?

Today my head constantly felt like it's being squeezed, like when you're about to cry.


I do some informational interviews but a friend that is an attorney who graduated in 2008 called BS on all of those and I kinda agree. His argument against networking events is that usually people that come to networking events are people who NEED work (90%) and people who are there for firm PR (10%). Standing around the 90% who also need work and nervously trying to strike up a convo is pointless, and in the rare chance that you meet someone who actually works at a firm it is highly unlikely they will ever offer you something. He is in charge of making an appearance at these types of events and he said he has never remembered a single person's name within 10 mins of leaving. As for informational interviews he said he thinks they are the dumbest thing known to man. Think about it: You can avoid asking for a job and BS about how you wanna "know what its like" and "what you should focus on" but the attorneys you are having coffee with aren't idiots, they know you want a job and unless they come right out and offer you something chances are slim you'll get much more than the exact same advice and more names of attorneys who will likewise list off the same advice to you over and over. There is a slim chance that after meeting you an attorney will hear about a job and recommend you, but chances are they wont remember who you are within a day.

As sad as it is, when he spoke to me about this he really made some pretty logical sense. I do informational interviews to make sure I cover my bases and dont miss anything, but honestly they seem a very small notch above mass mailing in terms of effectiveness in my book.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:52 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
a male human wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
a male human wrote:How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.


I deal with it by being realistic and realizing that there is absolutely nothing more I can do. I sometimes stay up till like 9 pm looking for jobs and have probably have sent out over 50 apps for listed positions that I qualify for, but in the end its a numbers game, and 50% of us will NOT find employment. I get really sick of explaining all this to my family though cause unless you're in it you don't understand the magnitude of what "the legal market sucks" means. My parents still always say "If you apply yourself and look hard enough you will land a great job".

Do you do networking and informational interviews and stuff? I did a few IIs, and while people are nice about giving me advice ("keep at it!"), I don't know how other people manage to materialize a job out of them. My GPA sucks, but someone out there would look the other way in light of my resume, right?

Today my head constantly felt like it's being squeezed, like when you're about to cry.


I do some informational interviews but a friend that is an attorney who graduated in 2008 called BS on all of those and I kinda agree. His argument against networking events is that usually people that come to networking events are people who NEED work (90%) and people who are there for firm PR (10%). Standing around the 90% who also need work and nervously trying to strike up a convo is pointless, and in the rare chance that you meet someone who actually works at a firm it is highly unlikely they will ever offer you something. He is in charge of making an appearance at these types of events and he said he has never remembered a single person's name within 10 mins of leaving. As for informational interviews he said he thinks they are the dumbest thing known to man. Think about it: You can avoid asking for a job and BS about how you wanna "know what its like" and "what you should focus on" but the attorneys you are having coffee with aren't idiots, they know you want a job and unless they come right out and offer you something chances are slim you'll get much more than the exact same advice and more names of attorneys who will likewise list off the same advice to you over and over. There is a slim chance that after meeting you an attorney will hear about a job and recommend you, but chances are they wont remember who you are within a day.

As sad as it is, when he spoke to me about this he really made some pretty logical sense. I do informational interviews to make sure I cover my bases and dont miss anything, but honestly they seem a very small notch above mass mailing in terms of effectiveness in my book.

That makes sense, and as a disclaimer IIs and going to events didn't bear any fruit for me, but I want to make some counterpoints for consideration.

I went to an event once and struck up a convo with an attorney. It was an educational presentation, and I think most attorneys there were actually there to learn or get CLE. Anyway, I was being awkward because I had nothing to contribute, but I still emailed him afterward. Later, he randomly emailed me if I was interested in this one position. I was like SURE, but then he said his contact didn't get back to him or something? So I'm guessing it's possible to make something happen, especially if you're one of those bubbly personalities who can make old men smile. It's also good to show your face around people who have the same interest. Who knows who you'll meet? But yeah that was merely one instance, and I don't like going to those events, though I am advised to.

The way I got my 2L internship was going to my school's career fair and getting a card from an in-house attorney. Later I submitted an official application. Didn't hear back so I emailed him reiterating my interest in the position. He got me an interview and the internship. But everyone knows internships (particularly in-house ones probably) aren't as hard to get as FT jobs, so whatever.

Also, I think the real point of IIs is to grow your network for serendipitous opportunities in the long term. Also, I've gotten some good advice that I actually followed when writing cover letters or resumes. They're also nice to know and get the state of the market from. But I think the real value comes if these IIs are with partners or people with hiring power. The problem is that partners are generally too busy to get their attention, so you're stuck talking to a bunch of associates who can only say, "I was really lucky! It was a case of 'right place at the right time.' Also my GPA was a full point higher than yours."

I got my own client (I'm a patent agent) through a referral, but I hate working with him mostly because of my own inexperience, which is why I really want a firm job first.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:08 pm

I've never had any success at any kind of networking for the sake of networking, and never really known anyone IRL who has succeeded at finding a real/decent job this way. I think that knowing lots of people who can/will vouch for you or look out for your interests is totally an essential element of a job search, but IMO nobody who you meet once at an event designed for this type of thing is ever really going to give a shit about you- why would they? You can "network" by actually getting involved in internships or volunteering and get to know people slowly and organically. I'm pretty sure this is the only kind of "networking" that actually works.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby adonai » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:19 pm

Void wrote:I've never had any success at any kind of networking for the sake of networking, and never really known anyone IRL who has succeeded at finding a real/decent job this way. I think that knowing lots of people who can/will vouch for you or look out for your interests is totally an essential element of a job search, but IMO nobody who you meet once at an event designed for this type of thing is ever really going to give a shit about you- why would they? You can "network" by actually getting involved in internships or volunteering and get to know people slowly and organically. I'm pretty sure this is the only kind of "networking" that actually works.

Same for me. I also always had another thought in the back of my head. Basically, why would this attorney hire me/try to get me hired when that person probably has close friends, friends of close friends, relatives, etc. that are probably asking him/her as well? There really is no reason to.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:48 pm

So where do we find jobs then?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:58 pm

a male human wrote:So where do we find jobs then?


Idk how to do it if you want to work in the private sector. If you want local govt you have to volunteer and keep on showing up and doing solid work until something works out. Maybe there's some way to do this and convert to a firm job- idk because I never wanted that kind of work.

I actually also got an offer to work for a private personal injury guy for like $30k with no benefits because I worked as his "research assistant" during law school- he basically paid me $10/hr to do westlaw research for him. He said I did a great job and wanted to keep me around after graduation. Obviously not an ideal situation but another example of getting somewhere from just showing up and doing a good job.

Obviously the hard part is finding someplace to start. Like I said I don't now that works for non-govt work.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:00 pm

a male human wrote:So where do we find jobs then?


You apply to the posted ones along with the other 500 applicants who apply and hope the boss is having a good day when he looks over your resume. Otherwise, volunteer some places in hopes of making connections, developing skills and potentially getting an offer. If both of those don't work I guess doc review and washing dishes.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:01 pm

Void wrote:
a male human wrote:So where do we find jobs then?


Idk how to do it if you want to work in the private sector. If you want local govt you have to volunteer and keep on showing up and doing solid work until something works out. Maybe there's some way to do this and convert to a firm job- idk because I never wanted that kind of work.

I actually also got an offer to work for a private personal injury guy for like $30k with no benefits because I worked as his "research assistant" during law school- he basically paid me $10/hr to do westlaw research for him. He said I did a great job and wanted to keep me around after graduation. Obviously not an ideal situation but another example of getting somewhere from just showing up and doing a good job.

Obviously the hard part is finding someplace to start. Like I said I don't now that works for non-govt work.


This. The PDs office I interned in during 2L had 4 "volunteer attorneys" and three received offers within 6 months of volunteering while the 4th, who apparently was a really shitty interviewer, was given a $15/hr law clerk position.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby deadpanic » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:02 pm

Void wrote:I've never had any success at any kind of networking for the sake of networking, and never really known anyone IRL who has succeeded at finding a real/decent job this way. I think that knowing lots of people who can/will vouch for you or look out for your interests is totally an essential element of a job search, but IMO nobody who you meet once at an event designed for this type of thing is ever really going to give a shit about you- why would they? You can "network" by actually getting involved in internships or volunteering and get to know people slowly and organically. I'm pretty sure this is the only kind of "networking" that actually works.


I agree for the most part. There are some exceptions like a girl in my class who happened to come up to a small firm guy after he did some bankruptcy speech and got a FT job out of it. But, she is pretty hot and has a good personality.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:11 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
Void wrote:
a male human wrote:So where do we find jobs then?


Idk how to do it if you want to work in the private sector. If you want local govt you have to volunteer and keep on showing up and doing solid work until something works out. Maybe there's some way to do this and convert to a firm job- idk because I never wanted that kind of work.

I actually also got an offer to work for a private personal injury guy for like $30k with no benefits because I worked as his "research assistant" during law school- he basically paid me $10/hr to do westlaw research for him. He said I did a great job and wanted to keep me around after graduation. Obviously not an ideal situation but another example of getting somewhere from just showing up and doing a good job.

Obviously the hard part is finding someplace to start. Like I said I don't now that works for non-govt work.


This. The PDs office I interned in during 2L had 4 "volunteer attorneys" and three received offers within 6 months of volunteering while the 4th, who apparently was a really shitty interviewer, was given a $15/hr law clerk position.


The other benefit to volunteering is it gives you something to do every day other than desperately checking your phone and email every two seconds and scouring the Internet for job openings. Plus if you do land an interview even at a place other than your volunteering hookup, you look productive and positive and don't have an ever-widening resume gap.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:16 pm

a male human wrote:How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.


Dude, even 6 months from now, only 50% will find jobs. So at this point, there's only like 35% of law graduates that have something locked up--and a good portion of those are people that just resigned themselves to local shitlaw early on.

Don't worry about it. You didn't do anything wrong. It just is what it is. You still have 6 months to be one of those lucky 50%. Feeling shame and guilt won't do anything productive.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:28 pm

JCougar wrote:
a male human wrote:How do you guys deal with the shame and guilt? My dad keeps loaning me money, and it feels horrible.


Dude, even 6 months from now, only 50% will find jobs. So at this point, there's only like 35% of law graduates that have something locked up--and a good portion of those are people that just resigned themselves to local shitlaw early on.

Don't worry about it. You didn't do anything wrong. It just is what it is. You still have 6 months to be one of those lucky 50%. Feeling shame and guilt won't do anything productive.


This really is the most realistic way to put it. While "you only need one" is legit and opportunities will likely open up a bit more once bar results are out you have to mentally understand that in the end 50% of us will not have a job, not now not ever.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:41 pm

deadpanic wrote:
Void wrote:I've never had any success at any kind of networking for the sake of networking, and never really known anyone IRL who has succeeded at finding a real/decent job this way. I think that knowing lots of people who can/will vouch for you or look out for your interests is totally an essential element of a job search, but IMO nobody who you meet once at an event designed for this type of thing is ever really going to give a shit about you- why would they? You can "network" by actually getting involved in internships or volunteering and get to know people slowly and organically. I'm pretty sure this is the only kind of "networking" that actually works.


I agree for the most part. There are some exceptions like a girl in my class who happened to come up to a small firm guy after he did some bankruptcy speech and got a FT job out of it. But, she is pretty hot and has a good personality.


I've gotten a few interviews from networking (not for full-time jobs, but for internships). But I networked like hell. I've gone to 7 conferences in the last two years. I have met and conversed with partners from at least 50% of the bigger firms (both biglaw and plaintiff) that practice in my area, and about 50% of the board members/commissioners/general counsel of the Fed agencies in my area. I've handed out over 200 business cards, and collected about 200 as well. I've gone out to dinner/drinks with like at least 50 lawyers. They almost always cover your tab if they know you are a student. That doesn't mean they can manufacture a job for you, but you at least get to have fun. I've had people buy me copious amounts of single-malt scotch, seafood, etc. One of them sent me a promotional gift pack from their firm in the mail (a set of coasters, which are pretty nice). I can use them while drinking myself to death over the next year or so. :D

I can't tell if it's going to make any difference right now for a permanent job. Out of the probably 200-300 I've connected with, maybe slightly more than about a dozen have asked for my resume or responded when I sent one out to them afterward. Most were like "we're not hiring right now, but I'll hold on to this for the future." Some forwarded it on to their hiring committee, after which I promptly received a rejection letter saying the firm isn't hiring anyone right now. About 50% of the people will forget who you are by the time the next time they see you, but there's generally only a few that will not want to at least talk to you.

There just isn't shit out there. The agencies I want to work for are on hiring freezes, and aren't even replacing people that retire/quit, Biglaw will hire you at OCI or as a lateral, but rarely straight out of law school, and plaintiff firms that aren't shitlaw pretty much only hire people with experience. And even if you get along well with a biglaw partner, the hiring committee isn't going to just be like, "well, so-and-so partner met this student at a conference, so let's take him on."

Still, there's like 6 or 7 people that keep in contact with me and say they'll keep their eyes open if something comes up.

In other words, it's a numbers game. At conferences, there's like a 100:1 lawyer/law student ratio. At your school's "networking events," it's like 1:10 lawyers/students, so your odds are terrible.

I don't really know if that's going to encourage anybody or not. But that's my experience. Even if it ends up being for nothing, getting drunk with attorneys is pretty fun, there's lots of free food at conferences (and most of the time it is good food), and you get to know the language of the profession. I can't say that it has worked so far as far as permanent job goes, but it's more fun than mass mailing.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gorki » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:29 pm

I know its selfish, but its a bit sad knowing any door to receiving familial support/pity has been slammed shut by going to lawl skoo.

It is just assumed that your debt now means nothing because in 1.5 years I can practice law and will be negotiating HEFTY settlement fees. Why would they provide support to some guy who can EASILY work off all DAT debt in 5 minutes of court room debt.


In contrast, a family member who spent like $5,000 to train in automotives and cannot find a job is treated like he was subject to heinous discrimination an that America needs to get back on track employing such individuals.


True, mechanics add more value than another goddamn lawyer... just feelsbadman.




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