The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:33 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
Run a better business. If you stopped paying 200K+ for part time professor work, gave everyone huge bonuses, shut down 3 professor taught research classes and 10 person OCSs maybe you wouldn't need to charge as much.


Okay I will actually defend this. Adjunct professors are among the worst paid in the world. They get no benefits or anything, and they get paid like $2000 per course. So if you are just teaching "Family Law" in the fall and "Arbitration" in the spring, you'll be lucky to get 4k or 5k for the whole year. That's worse than a law grad who could only find doc review work. Many adjunct professors have student loans and need food stamps to survive.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
Run a better business. If you stopped paying 200K+ for part time professor work, gave everyone huge bonuses, shut down 3 professor taught research classes and 10 person OCSs maybe you wouldn't need to charge as much.


Okay I will actually defend this. Adjunct professors are among the worst paid in the world. They get no benefits or anything, and they get paid like $2000 per course. So if you are just teaching "Family Law" in the fall and "Arbitration" in the spring, you'll be lucky to get 4k or 5k for the whole year. That's worse than a law grad who could only find doc review work. Many adjunct professors have student loans and need food stamps to survive.

You're thinking of adjuncts outside law school, where that's true. But in law school, when you want the partner from the local tax powerhouse to teach a class, you pay them pretty well. Also, basically every law school adjunct is employed full-time as a lawyer and teaches on the side - it's a very different model from adjuncting in the rest of academia.

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bk1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bk1 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:36 pm

+1

Every law adjunct I've met works full time on the side (biglawyers, AUSAs, judges, etc) and only teaches because they like to. That said, I don't think they are paid too lavishly and they are a better deal (in terms of cost per class taught) than tenured profs.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:You're thinking of adjuncts outside law school, where that's true. But in law school, when you want the partner from the local tax powerhouse to teach a class, you pay them pretty well. Also, basically every law school adjunct is employed full-time as a lawyer and teaches on the side - it's a very different model from adjuncting in the rest of academia.


Ahh, okay. Makes sense.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:40 pm

bk1 wrote:+1

Every law adjunct I've met works full time on the side (biglawyers, AUSAs, judges, etc) and only teaches because they like to. That said, I don't think they are paid too lavishly and they are a better deal (in terms of cost per class taught) than tenured profs.

Yeah, I should have said they get paid pretty well compared to the $2000/course in the rest of academia, not in an absolute sense. Certainly more economical than the tenured profs.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
Run a better business. If you stopped paying 200K+ for part time professor work, gave everyone huge bonuses, shut down 3 professor taught research classes and 10 person OCSs maybe you wouldn't need to charge as much.


Okay I will actually defend this. Adjunct professors are among the worst paid in the world. They get no benefits or anything, and they get paid like $2000 per course. So if you are just teaching "Family Law" in the fall and "Arbitration" in the spring, you'll be lucky to get 4k or 5k for the whole year. That's worse than a law grad who could only find doc review work. Many adjunct professors have student loans and need food stamps to survive.

You're thinking of adjuncts outside law school, where that's true. But in law school, when you want the partner from the local tax powerhouse to teach a class, you pay them pretty well. Also, basically every law school adjunct is employed full-time as a lawyer and teaches on the side - it's a very different model from adjuncting in the rest of academia.


This. So yeah, if law schools stopped being greedy and actually ran a good business they could easily lower tuition by at minimum 33%. Up to now people were "willing to pay the price" so why lower tuition? With app #'s at all time lows maybe law schools will get the hint.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:53 pm

Fellow Vale people, any advice on gov. oci interviews. I have a few coming up and have no idea how to approach them... do not even have contact info. of interviewers and of course their legal departments are hidden out of sight in their institutional websites.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Fellow Vale people, any advice on gov. oci interviews. I have a few coming up and have no idea how to approach them... do not even have contact info. of interviewers and of course their legal departments are hidden out of sight in their institutional websites.

I think the big thing with government interviews is to be all about the mission of whatever that employer does. Otherwise, it's going to be the same as any other kind of interview, but they'll want to see that you're dedicated to the mission and to public service so you won't notice/care how much smaller your paycheck is than biglaw. You need to have a good answer for "why this job" (well, you do anywhere, of course). And you also want to avoid giving any hint that government is second best, or that you'd flee government for well-paid private practice at the first opportunity (not saying you would do that, but I think it happens sometimes). I also think to the extent possible, why you want the job should be about what you can do for them/the constituency they serve rather than what you get out of the job (I think that you like the kind of work or that you want more responsibility sooner than you'd get in private practice are reasonable answers, but probably as a follow up to the public service-y side of things).

It's true that you won't really know who your interviewers are before you go in, but that makes the "how did you come to be in this job" kind of question even more natural (asking biglaw employees about their background when it's on the firm website is less compelling).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby okinawa » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Fellow Vale people, any advice on gov. oci interviews. I have a few coming up and have no idea how to approach them... do not even have contact info. of interviewers and of course their legal departments are hidden out of sight in their institutional websites.


The person who interviews you initially might not even work in the branch office where the opening is, so it's less about selling yourself to that particular person and connecting with their background or work, and more about selling yourself as a gov. attorney. Be prepared for an ethics question, which isn't a certainty but I'd say happens fairly often. You want to seem like someone who is pleasant to be around, won't leave after a few years (except in a few offices where bouncing around is more common), and is deeply committed to the objective of the office itself.

Brush up on the substantive law that the agency deals with and how the agency sees its place within that area of substantive law, is the best advice I can give. If you have some specific agencies, I'd be happy to give more specific advice if I have it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:37 pm

kalvano wrote:
a male human wrote:
kalvano wrote:
Why should I donate to a school that charged me out the ass to attend?

What if the tuition you paid was actually the bare minimum they could afford to accept while keeping the business running?


Not applicable to almost any law school. Even if it was, maybe they should slash the bloated professor salaries then. Their broken business model is not my concern. My own money is my concern.


PCL?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:57 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not applicable to almost any law school. Even if it was, maybe they should slash the bloated professor salaries then. Their broken business model is not my concern. My own money is my concern.


PCL?



Huh?

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Danger Zone
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Danger Zone » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:00 pm

kalvano wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not applicable to almost any law school. Even if it was, maybe they should slash the bloated professor salaries then. Their broken business model is not my concern. My own money is my concern.

PCL?

Huh?

Image
Last edited by Danger Zone on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:01 pm

Lawl.

No, I was thinking more like Texas Tech. Not great, but not a bad choice if you want to work in West Texas or Ft. Worth or somewhere like that. They aren't too expensive at all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:30 pm

Danger Zone wrote:
kalvano wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Not applicable to almost any law school. Even if it was, maybe they should slash the bloated professor salaries then. Their broken business model is not my concern. My own money is my concern.

PCL?

Huh?

Image

This picture makes me sad :(
At least the tuition isn't that bad.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:48 pm

the Vale of Tears should be the birthplace of the next American Revolution. a collection of highly trained minds, marginalized by the system.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lukertin » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:the Vale of Tears should be the birthplace of the next American Revolution. a collection of highly trained minds, marginalized by the system.

The proponents of the American Revolution were hardly "marginalized" by the system. They were mostly rich landowners probably in the top 1%.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:16 pm

A firm where I have a very strong contact just posted an opening in the office I am interested in. If I don't get at least an interview out of this I'm gonna freak out. :)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JenDarby » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:10 pm

I received an interview with a BK Judge for a two year term, in a city I would like to be in. The only problem is its on the other coast. I would have to miss classes and work for 2 days and also pay for a likely expensive flight and rental car and hotel.

Clearly I want to be employed, and this is a position I would enjoy, but fuck that's a lot of logistics and money I don't have.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby iceman219 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:22 pm

Almost 3 weeks after the SEMJF, got a callback for a 2nd round interview! Great opportunity. PUMPED

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:34 pm

JenDarby wrote:I received an interview with a BK Judge for a two year term, in a city I would like to be in. The only problem is its on the other coast. I would have to miss classes and work for 2 days and also pay for a likely expensive flight and rental car and hotel.

Clearly I want to be employed, and this is a position I would enjoy, but fuck that's a lot of logistics and money I don't have.


Have you expressed the hardship with the judge and discussed the possibility of a skype or phone interview?

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JenDarby
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JenDarby » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:06 pm

chrisbru wrote:
JenDarby wrote:I received an interview with a BK Judge for a two year term, in a city I would like to be in. The only problem is its on the other coast. I would have to miss classes and work for 2 days and also pay for a likely expensive flight and rental car and hotel.

Clearly I want to be employed, and this is a position I would enjoy, but fuck that's a lot of logistics and money I don't have.


Have you expressed the hardship with the judge and discussed the possibility of a skype or phone interview?

I haven't yet, I just found out about it. But, I realized I can tie it in to a weekend visit with my family and only miss one class so it wouldn't be the WORST thing now.

Fuck. I pressed send on the email confirming the interview accidentally (before removing the "sent from my iPhone" part which I keep forgetting to get rid of altogether). Oh well...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:16 pm

Idk, if I were you I'd spend the money. There will be people interviewing in person for the job, and they automatically will look a LOT better than you if you're phoning in. I speak from experience. I truly regret all the phone interviews at places I wanted to work at because I knew most of th candidates would be in-person, and the disadvantage is hard to overcome.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:26 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Idk, if I were you I'd spend the money. There will be people interviewing in person for the job, and they automatically will look a LOT better than you if you're phoning in. I speak from experience. I truly regret all the phone interviews at places I wanted to work at because I knew most of th candidates would be in-person, and the disadvantage is hard to overcome.

Yeah definitely go

Beg your parents for $ if you have to

Sounds like too good an opportunity to pass up

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JenDarby
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JenDarby » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:32 pm

Fortunately the plans tickets are a lot less than I thought they be (and than they usually are). I'm going to fly there for the interview - I managed it so I will only miss one class, taught by my past bankruptcy professor, who I'm sure will understand.

I can't really imagine being away for two years, but I will at least be near a lot of friends and family. A two year clerkship is long.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby a male human » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:33 pm

I had a great interview--or so they said--at a small firm, but I got an immediate rejection the next business day. I sent the head partner a nice email asking for feedback, but he never responded. Is it appropriate to give him a call to follow up, or would it put too much pressure on him to remember and give me his reasons on the spot? Kinda want some closure.




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