The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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bk1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bk1 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:16 am

Void wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Void wrote:That blows. When did you graduate? What are/were your career goals? What kinds of jobs did you lose, and how'd you lose them?

How does that info help anyone?


Just curious. I didn't realize that questions on this thread are supposed to be limited to information that will help someone.

They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.

Void
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:53 am

bk1 wrote:
Void wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Void wrote:That blows. When did you graduate? What are/were your career goals? What kinds of jobs did you lose, and how'd you lose them?

How does that info help anyone?


Just curious. I didn't realize that questions on this thread are supposed to be limited to information that will help someone.

They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Noted.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:00 am

Void wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Void wrote:That blows. When did you graduate? What are/were your career goals? What kinds of jobs did you lose, and how'd you lose them?

How does that info help anyone?


Just curious. I didn't realize that questions on this thread are supposed to be limited to information that will help someone.

It's very much a support thread for those without jobs, not a thread for other people to figure out how they can avoid being in the same position.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:15 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Void wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Void wrote:That blows. When did you graduate? What are/were your career goals? What kinds of jobs did you lose, and how'd you lose them?

How does that info help anyone?


Just curious. I didn't realize that questions on this thread are supposed to be limited to information that will help someone.

It's very much a support thread for those without jobs, not a thread for other people to figure out how they can avoid being in the same position.


Got it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:17 pm

I can't get into specifics, but, in one instance, I moved 1,000 miles away to a smaller sized firm (15-20 attorneys). Within 3 months they decided they could no longer afford a new associate and canned me. 1 week severance. Couldn't even get them to send me COBRA. "Need someone with bigger book of business," they decided.

Oh, us millennials, will we ever find peace?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I can't get into specifics, but, in one instance, I moved 1,000 miles away to a smaller sized firm (15-20 attorneys). Within 3 months they decided they could no longer afford a new associate and canned me. 1 week severance. Couldn't even get them to send me COBRA. "Need someone with bigger book of business," they decided.

Oh, us millennials, will we ever find peace?


That's rough, I'm sorry to hear about that. That's a huge dick move.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:29 pm

Hey folks in DC... have you ever heard of people renting out private condos? I think I found a company that does it online, and it seems A LOT more affordable than regular apartments, and the condos seem a lot nicer. But it also seems too good to be true.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby msridiculous447 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:33 pm

Yeah, the renting condos is super common. I have a friend in law school in DC and she rents a condo. Probably a nicer place for the $.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:35 pm

bk1 wrote:They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Yeah, I have to say, as someone recently no-offered, my #1 annoyance is the extent to which people ask 101 questions about what I could have possibly done wrong. To anyone reading who is wondering how to "handle" talking to someone in this spot, at least from my perspective:

Yes, there is something to be said about trying to replay what I did to try to learn from it going forward, and I have chosen which people I want to have that conversation with. If I am not actively trying to steer that conversation that way with you, it means I don't want to talk about it with you, so kindly STFU. I'm trying to not put that stress on others and to stay cheery and calm around other people. My body is pumped with adrenaline, shutting down both my ability to sleep and my ability to eat. My hair will probably start to fall out soon. I can't rest; I get no relaxation from an episode on Netflix. But in front of you, I'm trying not to freak out. I'm not prepared nor well-positioned for *anything* going forward, and everywhere I apply is going to be a long shot. I'm trying my best to keep my fears and sense of desperation and hopelessness at bay, and to swallow the extent to which I have just fallen from the path I thought was mine. This doesn't mean that it's easy for me to endure all your suggestions of what I could have done wrong.

If you want to be a good friend, don't ask questions. Just listen. And if the person doesn't want to talk about it, be willing to just talk about something else. Anything else. Anything you would have talked about before this happened.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:36 pm

msridiculous447 wrote:Yeah, the renting condos is super common. I have a friend in law school in DC and she rents a condo. Probably a nicer place for the $.

Do you know the company she is using? I found one which focuses in Arlington, but, I may as well look into more.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Yeah, I have to say, as someone recently no-offered, my #1 annoyance is the extent to which people ask 101 questions about what I could have possibly done wrong. To anyone reading who is wondering how to "handle" talking to someone in this spot, at least from my perspective:

Yes, there is something to be said about trying to replay what I did to try to learn from it going forward, and I have chosen which people I want to have that conversation with. If I am not actively trying to steer that conversation that way with you, it means I don't want to talk about it with you, so kindly STFU. I'm trying to not put that stress on others and to stay cheery and calm around other people. My body is pumped with adrenaline, shutting down both my ability to sleep and my ability to eat. My hair will probably start to fall out soon. I can't rest; I get no relaxation from an episode on Netflix. But in front of you, I'm trying not to freak out. I'm not prepared nor well-positioned for *anything* going forward, and everywhere I apply is going to be a long shot. I'm trying my best to keep my fears and sense of desperation and hopelessness at bay, and to swallow the extent to which I have just fallen from the path I thought was mine. This doesn't mean that it's easy for me to endure all your suggestions of what I could have done wrong.

If you want to be a good friend, don't ask questions. Just listen. And if the person doesn't want to talk about it, be willing to just talk about something else. Anything else. Anything you would have talked about before this happened.


I second a lot of this, especially because I've found out the actual reason for my no offer between what my mentor and the hiring partner told me, both of whom were in my final review and thought I should have no problems. Apparently I was stabbed in the back by a mid-level who acted as my friend but in the background had been working against me from day one. I have no idea what I could have done to draw that on myself but any form of explaining that sounds like I'm looking for excuses because normal people don't go out of their way to derail someone's career, especially someone not in competition with them in any way, unless there is some form of hatred there.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Yeah, I have to say, as someone recently no-offered, my #1 annoyance is the extent to which people ask 101 questions about what I could have possibly done wrong. To anyone reading who is wondering how to "handle" talking to someone in this spot, at least from my perspective:

Yes, there is something to be said about trying to replay what I did to try to learn from it going forward, and I have chosen which people I want to have that conversation with. If I am not actively trying to steer that conversation that way with you, it means I don't want to talk about it with you, so kindly STFU. I'm trying to not put that stress on others and to stay cheery and calm around other people. My body is pumped with adrenaline, shutting down both my ability to sleep and my ability to eat. My hair will probably start to fall out soon. I can't rest; I get no relaxation from an episode on Netflix. But in front of you, I'm trying not to freak out. I'm not prepared nor well-positioned for *anything* going forward, and everywhere I apply is going to be a long shot. I'm trying my best to keep my fears and sense of desperation and hopelessness at bay, and to swallow the extent to which I have just fallen from the path I thought was mine. This doesn't mean that it's easy for me to endure all your suggestions of what I could have done wrong.

If you want to be a good friend, don't ask questions. Just listen. And if the person doesn't want to talk about it, be willing to just talk about something else. Anything else. Anything you would have talked about before this happened.

A thousand times this

msridiculous447
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby msridiculous447 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:00 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:
msridiculous447 wrote:Yeah, the renting condos is super common. I have a friend in law school in DC and she rents a condo. Probably a nicer place for the $.

Do you know the company she is using? I found one which focuses in Arlington, but, I may as well look into more.


I THINK she just did it via CL, but I'll check. :) I'm not sure what your specific situation/needs are, but Arlington is definitely worth a look, particularly if you're getting a commuter stipend. A lot of younger people who work in DC live there, so Arlington has its own little downtown area with good bars and restaurants and things like that. It's not exactly the same as living in DC, but it does feel a lot more like a DC neighborhood than a suburb.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Yeah, I have to say, as someone recently no-offered, my #1 annoyance is the extent to which people ask 101 questions about what I could have possibly done wrong. To anyone reading who is wondering how to "handle" talking to someone in this spot, at least from my perspective:

Yes, there is something to be said about trying to replay what I did to try to learn from it going forward, and I have chosen which people I want to have that conversation with. If I am not actively trying to steer that conversation that way with you, it means I don't want to talk about it with you, so kindly STFU. I'm trying to not put that stress on others and to stay cheery and calm around other people. My body is pumped with adrenaline, shutting down both my ability to sleep and my ability to eat. My hair will probably start to fall out soon. I can't rest; I get no relaxation from an episode on Netflix. But in front of you, I'm trying not to freak out. I'm not prepared nor well-positioned for *anything* going forward, and everywhere I apply is going to be a long shot. I'm trying my best to keep my fears and sense of desperation and hopelessness at bay, and to swallow the extent to which I have just fallen from the path I thought was mine. This doesn't mean that it's easy for me to endure all your suggestions of what I could have done wrong.

If you want to be a good friend, don't ask questions. Just listen. And if the person doesn't want to talk about it, be willing to just talk about something else. Anything else. Anything you would have talked about before this happened.


For the third time, I got it.

For the record, I wasn't actually trying to be this guy's friend or support group or even glean any helpful information that would somehow be beneficial for myself- I was just interested to hear this guy's story. Where I come from, if a guy shows up in a bar and starts talking about something shitty that happened to him, it's not uncommon to say things like "That blows. When did you graduate? What are/were your career goals? What kinds of jobs did you lose, and how'd you lose them?"

That said, I understand and respect the perspective that this is an assholish approach.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:13 pm

msridiculous447 wrote:
snowpeach06 wrote:
msridiculous447 wrote:Yeah, the renting condos is super common. I have a friend in law school in DC and she rents a condo. Probably a nicer place for the $.

Do you know the company she is using? I found one which focuses in Arlington, but, I may as well look into more.


I THINK she just did it via CL, but I'll check. :) I'm not sure what your specific situation/needs are, but Arlington is definitely worth a look, particularly if you're getting a commuter stipend. A lot of younger people who work in DC live there, so Arlington has its own little downtown area with good bars and restaurants and things like that. It's not exactly the same as living in DC, but it does feel a lot more like a DC neighborhood than a suburb.

I've been checking Craigslist literally non-stop for the past few days and haven't really found anything promising. I did find something yesterday, but it was taken before I could take it. But yeah, I like Arlington because I don't mind a commute (since my job is on blue/orange - it shouldn't be too long), and I'd really like to bring my car and go food shopping at a regular super market and not the over priced, tiny, inconvenient ones in the city.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:27 pm

I do kind of think asking someone their story isn't that bad. But I'm more into them volunteering it. One of my friends was top 5% LR + 2L biglaw in DC. I spoke with her at graduation and asked where she's gonna be working and she said she is working at the job she had before LS. I immediately switched subjects cause I know how much it sucks to have to admit that. I was absolutely curious as to what happened cause she was at some Vault firm, amazing grades, personality is awesome so I doubt she was nasty with someone or something, but in the end unless she volunteers it thats none of my business. I HATE telling people my story (I don't mind telling TLS my story, I hate telling people who I know IRL). So I can easily see how others hate telling theirs as well. Since graduation some of the top gems I had to endure are: "Where are you working?", "Really, oh I thought you had that job locked up for sure!", "Oh, but I thought they were hiring everyone.", "What are you gonna do, the market is really bad!" and my personal favorite "Man that sucks. I'm glad I have a job cause I'd be freaking the fuck out if I didn't right now."

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Void » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:38 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:I do kind of think asking someone their story isn't that bad. But I'm more into them volunteering it. One of my friends was top 5% LR + 2L biglaw in DC. I spoke with her at graduation and asked where she's gonna be working and she said she is working at the job she had before LS. I immediately switched subjects cause I know how much it sucks to have to admit that. I was absolutely curious as to what happened cause she was at some Vault firm, amazing grades, personality is awesome so I doubt she was nasty with someone or something, but in the end unless she volunteers it thats none of my business. I HATE telling people my story (I don't mind telling TLS my story, I hate telling people who I know IRL). So I can easily see how others hate telling theirs as well. Since graduation some of the top gems I had to endure are: "Where are you working?", "Really, oh I thought you had that job locked up for sure!", "Oh, but I thought they were hiring everyone.", "What are you gonna do, the market is really bad!" and my personal favorite "Man that sucks. I'm glad I have a job cause I'd be freaking the fuck out if I didn't right now."


I agree completely. But as a reminder, this guy said the following, which IMO constitutes volunteering his story, and I was just interested in him elaborating. It's not like I walked up to him out of nowhere and said "where are you working?" But whatever, I'll shut up now.

Anonymous User wrote:Haven't had time to read through the entire thread. If it's any consequence to people out there, and I know this is coming from an anonymous poster on the Internet, but I have been there. I have lost two jobs, I am unemployed, I have no where to go, nothing to do. I have taken risks, as people here have said. My part time job is humiliating. At least I have something to show current employers, but the details are so sad: a high school student can do my job.

For a while, I was probably suicidal. Very depressed, at least. But in time, you find comfort in something, or at least move on.

I am still unemployed. I am on food stamps. Unemployment benefits will run out. I have applied to more jobs than I can count (hundreds upon hundreds). The shame I have is endless. But at least I have some will to live. I know I am done in law, I don't even care really. It's just that I am in such an employment hole because of my recent trend.

For what it is worth, I graduated cum laude from a school on the first page of the U.S. News rankings and originally had plenty of job offers. My how much things can change.

Stay strong. Wish I could help everyone who is hurting.

-Just a guy on the Internet posting from a very isolated place in the middle of nowhere.
Last edited by Void on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:39 pm

BarbellDreams wrote: "Man that sucks. I'm glad I have a job cause I'd be freaking the fuck out if I didn't right now."



D00ds sound like pricks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:09 pm

CSO advisor sends an e-mail to check up on how things are going and mentions that people are getting jobs, most recently one at firm X. I was waiting to hear back from firm X after an interview I had a couple weeks ago. Fuck, what a way to find out.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:CSO advisor sends an e-mail to check up on how things are going and mentions that people are getting jobs, most recently one at firm X. I was waiting to hear back from firm X after an interview I had a couple weeks ago. Fuck, what a way to find out.


This process is awful, demeaning, and self confidence destroying. It makes 1L look like a lark.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:16 pm

Void,

Are you a 3L job hunting?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby cinephile » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Yeah, I have to say, as someone recently no-offered, my #1 annoyance is the extent to which people ask 101 questions about what I could have possibly done wrong. To anyone reading who is wondering how to "handle" talking to someone in this spot, at least from my perspective:

Yes, there is something to be said about trying to replay what I did to try to learn from it going forward, and I have chosen which people I want to have that conversation with. If I am not actively trying to steer that conversation that way with you, it means I don't want to talk about it with you, so kindly STFU. I'm trying to not put that stress on others and to stay cheery and calm around other people. My body is pumped with adrenaline, shutting down both my ability to sleep and my ability to eat. My hair will probably start to fall out soon. I can't rest; I get no relaxation from an episode on Netflix. But in front of you, I'm trying not to freak out. I'm not prepared nor well-positioned for *anything* going forward, and everywhere I apply is going to be a long shot. I'm trying my best to keep my fears and sense of desperation and hopelessness at bay, and to swallow the extent to which I have just fallen from the path I thought was mine. This doesn't mean that it's easy for me to endure all your suggestions of what I could have done wrong.

If you want to be a good friend, don't ask questions. Just listen. And if the person doesn't want to talk about it, be willing to just talk about something else. Anything else. Anything you would have talked about before this happened.


I second a lot of this, especially because I've found out the actual reason for my no offer between what my mentor and the hiring partner told me, both of whom were in my final review and thought I should have no problems. Apparently I was stabbed in the back by a mid-level who acted as my friend but in the background had been working against me from day one. I have no idea what I could have done to draw that on myself but any form of explaining that sounds like I'm looking for excuses because normal people don't go out of their way to derail someone's career, especially someone not in competition with them in any way, unless there is some form of hatred there.


I'm really into self-help books, and one thing I've read over and over again is that when people hate you for seemingly no reason, it's not your fault. You may remind them, in some way, of someone else in their life (a former partner, friend, parent, etc.) who hurt them deeply, and they're simply taking it out on you because they can't build up the courage to confront that person. So don't blame yourself.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:29 pm

cinephile wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bk1 wrote:They don't have to be, but asking someone questions about what is probably a sore spot for them just to satisfy your curiosity is a dick move.


Yeah, I have to say, as someone recently no-offered, my #1 annoyance is the extent to which people ask 101 questions about what I could have possibly done wrong. To anyone reading who is wondering how to "handle" talking to someone in this spot, at least from my perspective:

Yes, there is something to be said about trying to replay what I did to try to learn from it going forward, and I have chosen which people I want to have that conversation with. If I am not actively trying to steer that conversation that way with you, it means I don't want to talk about it with you, so kindly STFU. I'm trying to not put that stress on others and to stay cheery and calm around other people. My body is pumped with adrenaline, shutting down both my ability to sleep and my ability to eat. My hair will probably start to fall out soon. I can't rest; I get no relaxation from an episode on Netflix. But in front of you, I'm trying not to freak out. I'm not prepared nor well-positioned for *anything* going forward, and everywhere I apply is going to be a long shot. I'm trying my best to keep my fears and sense of desperation and hopelessness at bay, and to swallow the extent to which I have just fallen from the path I thought was mine. This doesn't mean that it's easy for me to endure all your suggestions of what I could have done wrong.

If you want to be a good friend, don't ask questions. Just listen. And if the person doesn't want to talk about it, be willing to just talk about something else. Anything else. Anything you would have talked about before this happened.


I second a lot of this, especially because I've found out the actual reason for my no offer between what my mentor and the hiring partner told me, both of whom were in my final review and thought I should have no problems. Apparently I was stabbed in the back by a mid-level who acted as my friend but in the background had been working against me from day one. I have no idea what I could have done to draw that on myself but any form of explaining that sounds like I'm looking for excuses because normal people don't go out of their way to derail someone's career, especially someone not in competition with them in any way, unless there is some form of hatred there.


I'm really into self-help books, and one thing I've read over and over again is that when people hate you for seemingly no reason, it's not your fault. You may remind them, in some way, of someone else in their life (a former partner, friend, parent, etc.) who hurt them deeply, and they're simply taking it out on you because they can't build up the courage to confront that person. So don't blame yourself.


Or they may be simply jealous of you or threatened by you for reasons you don't understand.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:13 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:
msridiculous447 wrote:
snowpeach06 wrote:
msridiculous447 wrote:Yeah, the renting condos is super common. I have a friend in law school in DC and she rents a condo. Probably a nicer place for the $.

Do you know the company she is using? I found one which focuses in Arlington, but, I may as well look into more.


I THINK she just did it via CL, but I'll check. :) I'm not sure what your specific situation/needs are, but Arlington is definitely worth a look, particularly if you're getting a commuter stipend. A lot of younger people who work in DC live there, so Arlington has its own little downtown area with good bars and restaurants and things like that. It's not exactly the same as living in DC, but it does feel a lot more like a DC neighborhood than a suburb.

I've been checking Craigslist literally non-stop for the past few days and haven't really found anything promising. I did find something yesterday, but it was taken before I could take it. But yeah, I like Arlington because I don't mind a commute (since my job is on blue/orange - it shouldn't be too long), and I'd really like to bring my car and go food shopping at a regular super market and not the over priced, tiny, inconvenient ones in the city.



Congrats Peach on the job! I've been a lurker on here for a while and am happy to find that you finally found something! Quick question though, do you have any loans and if so what's your plan to pay them off on your salary? I'm in a similar boat as you - making around >$50K and although I'm happy to have work, I'm a little petrified on what I'm gonna do once November rolls around and I got $1000 to pay off every month! Any advice anybody??

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:

Congrats Peach on the job! I've been a lurker on here for a while and am happy to find that you finally found something! Quick question though, do you have any loans and if so what's your plan to pay them off on your salary? I'm in a similar boat as you - making around >$50K and although I'm happy to have work, I'm a little petrified on what I'm gonna do once November rolls around and I got $1000 to pay off every month! Any advice anybody??


IBR. PAYE.




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