The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:18 am

Going to have to ask my dad to send more money to his miserable, pathetic, loser son. I. suck.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:43 am

Passing along recent Lexis Nexis job opportunites:

Account Executive Law School (Sacramento CA) JD preferred

Corporate Support Legal Research Associate: JD required (Dayton OH)
Expert Witness Reasearch Analyst: JD required (Dayton OH)

Cyne
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Cyne » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Going to have to ask my dad to send more money to his miserable, pathetic, loser son. I. suck.


Ya gotta do what ya gotta do mate. You don't suck. The market sucks. It's not just lolskool students that are getting killed out there. If you need to vent, this is a great place to do it.

No job does not equal pathetic or loser. It is a miserable experience though. I promise, you are in good company.

*Edited because of accidental early submission.

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Ludo!
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Ludo! » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:30 pm

Don't feel like a loser asking your parents for money dude. I had to ask my inlaws for money. It sucks, but the system is kind of set up to create this problem. I'm sure your dad understands.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So, I am a rising 3l without much of a safety net and jerbless (at this point). Would you guys recommend that I borrow extra to deal with living expenses/bar expenses after graduation?


Try not to take anymore debt if you don't have to. Go other routes.

Was in debt myself and swallowed the pride to ask for help from my parents and gotta steadfast SO that has supported me.


Yeah... I guess I will have to ask my family. I was looking at the fin aid for next year, and the total debt I have, how fast the interest is going up, and almost had a panic attack. You go through life, and you screw up once in a while, and in retrospect it feels like a tiny deal. This just does not feel that way. The idea that ten years from now, or twenty years from now, I will still be facing the consequences of my decision to attend law school just sucks.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gorki » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:16 pm

Anyone know PERSONALLY of any 3L or recent grad who just said screw it, went for a lower tier STEM/CS BS, and just rode out on debt hoping for a living wage and not 60 hour/week for life?

My cuz graduated c/o 2013 from cheap state u, is working at $35/hr doing pretty basic debugging and software dev stuff 9-5/7.

Is this a legit possibility, or am I being dumb and "grass is not greener on other side"?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:34 pm

Gorki wrote:Anyone know PERSONALLY of any 3L or recent grad who just said screw it, went for a lower tier STEM/CS BS, and just rode out on debt hoping for a living wage and not 60 hour/week for life?

My cuz graduated c/o 2013 from cheap state u, is working at $35/hr doing pretty basic debugging and software dev stuff 9-5/7.

Is this a legit possibility, or am I being dumb and "grass is not greener on other side"?


My gf is doing a BS in micro-biology to improve her chances at med school. The program is only one year since she already has a BA and the credits transferred. It is also a state school, so pretty cheap in comparison to what I pay for my JD at a fancy school. Will let you know whether the grass is greener.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:42 pm

I personally know a LOT of people who are either doing a postbacc or found a job in their Bachelor's field having zero to do with law. In fact many of my friends who graduated from law school with above median grades are already giving up on applying for law jobs and are applying for anything and everything with just their B.A. degree. I think its too early to call it quits after less than a month after the bar and after spending 3 years in LS, but for all I know they are the smart ones to cut loose ends now rather than painfully (more so anyway) later. I know one girl who got a killer position for a F500 company making 75K for a 9-5 that has zero to do with her JD.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Gorki » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:32 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:I personally know a LOT of people who are either doing a postbacc or found a job in their Bachelor's field having zero to do with law. In fact many of my friends who graduated from law school with above median grades are already giving up on applying for law jobs and are applying for anything and everything with just their B.A. degree. I think its too early to call it quits after less than a month after the bar and after spending 3 years in LS, but for all I know they are the smart ones to cut loose ends now rather than painfully (more so anyway) later. I know one girl who got a killer position for a F500 company making 75K for a 9-5 that has zero to do with her JD.


This is good to know. I am just rising into 3L, and perhaps its stupid but I really like litigation so I am not giving up yet... I just hope more mainstream media sources embolden the fact that we JDs are screwed ---> our apps to non-legal jobs are legit and not just "he will bail on us to make 5463405680k a year like all lawyers by year's end"

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:57 pm

Gorki wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I personally know a LOT of people who are either doing a postbacc or found a job in their Bachelor's field having zero to do with law. In fact many of my friends who graduated from law school with above median grades are already giving up on applying for law jobs and are applying for anything and everything with just their B.A. degree. I think its too early to call it quits after less than a month after the bar and after spending 3 years in LS, but for all I know they are the smart ones to cut loose ends now rather than painfully (more so anyway) later. I know one girl who got a killer position for a F500 company making 75K for a 9-5 that has zero to do with her JD.


This is good to know. I am just rising into 3L, and perhaps its stupid but I really like litigation so I am not giving up yet... I just hope more mainstream media sources embolden the fact that we JDs are screwed ---> our apps to non-legal jobs are legit and not just "he will bail on us to make 5463405680k a year like all lawyers by year's end"


I actually think somewhat opposite. If mainstream people start knowing JDs are screwed they wont offer F500 jobs to them very easily to begin with. The reason people can actually get these jobs (although rarely) out of law school is because the JD still has lay prestige. I use the whole "But you have a JD, thats really impressive and you're gonna make a lot of money" nonsense to my advantage. If employers knew that was fake I think they would treat JDs just like shitlaw does.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Going to have to ask my dad to send more money to his miserable, pathetic, loser son. I. suck.



Screw it. Boomers created this mess. While I'm sure you feel bad to have to ask your dad for money, if he'd convinced more of his friends to fix this problem, you wouldn't be here now.

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spleenworship
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:15 pm

Gorki wrote:Anyone know PERSONALLY of any 3L or recent grad who just said screw it, went for a lower tier STEM/CS BS, and just rode out on debt hoping for a living wage and not 60 hour/week for life?

My cuz graduated c/o 2013 from cheap state u, is working at $35/hr doing pretty basic debugging and software dev stuff 9-5/7.

Is this a legit possibility, or am I being dumb and "grass is not greener on other side"?



If I don't get a job by December 2015 I'm signing up for my pre-reqs for podiatry school. I don't know if it'll work, but it's worth a try.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby J. D. » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:00 am

Is this the place to go if I am no-offered?

Cyne
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Cyne » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:12 am

J. D. wrote:Is this the place to go if I am no-offered?


You can come here and the no offer support thread:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=212272&start=150

If you got no offered, condolences to you dude.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:36 am

As an unemployed, post-bar, median student from a T-14 school, I gotta say, you guys are way too negative on here. This is the first time in 3 fucking years when I can wake up when I want, work out when I want, do WHATEVER I want. And when I am not doing whatever I want, I send out apps and meet people to find a job that is either better pay or better hours than big law. Enjoy it while it lasts people.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:As an unemployed, post-bar, median student from a T-14 school, I gotta say, you guys are way too negative on here. This is the first time in 3 fucking years when I can wake up when I want, work out when I want, do WHATEVER I want. And when I am not doing whatever I want, I send out apps and meet people to find a job that is either better pay or better hours than big law. Enjoy it while it lasts people.


So how are you living right now? At your parents or with an SO?
My feeling is that the negativity matches the need for money and a career.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby aliens » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:09 am

I am going to be officially leaving the Vale. I have an offer, will be discussing the terms tomorrow morning, but fully anticipate to accept the offer extended.

I want to share my story to give everyone in the Vale hope that they will succeed and that it may be in the unlikeliest of ways.

My background: I graduated in 2010 from a TT in the Northeast. I was an evening student and worked full time before and during law school in my desired practice area. I participated in OCI but struck out. I think this was a few factors. I got lots of screeners but I was not the best interview and was very overweight (I’ve since lost the weight). Those factors coupled with the economy and I was screwed. After graduation, my firm would not promote me from a paralegal due to the economy and the firm’s needs.

I ended up getting a two year term federal clerkship in a flyover state that started in 2011. I remained at the firm as a paralegal until I left for the clerkship. The clerkship was amazing but I was not able to get any interest for employment afterwards in the flyover state. My clerkship ends this month, so I was sweating it obviously. I was feeling down because I moved my spouse here with me and he's underemployed (though thankfully employed). We would struggle financially if I became unemployed after the clerkship. I've been job searching for over a year and just kept getting dinged. Until I didn't get dinged...

Here's how I got the job: Last summer I saw a posting for an opening at a mid-size firm in my home state, but in a smaller area. I e-mailed my materials to them and got an interview. It was my first interview for a post-clerkship position. I interviewed last September and they strung me along until April. They weren't sure of needs, etc. But they were very nice to me and always responded to my inquiries quickly. When they finally dinged me, I asked for job search advice. Here's where it gets interesting.

- Firm recommended that I contact the local bar association for job openings (April)
- Bar association recommended that I place an ad for employment in their reporter (April)
- I placed ad (it was free!) figuring it couldn't hurt and may lead to networking contacts (April)
- Several networking contacts get in touch with me (April to June)
- New firm contacts me in June to about opening in their firm based upon my ad in reporter (June)
- Interview with new firm (July)
- Get offer from undesired employer. It was for a non-legal position that I didn’t really want and I didn’t really like the people there. (Late July)
- Follow up with new firm and tell them I had another offer. I was able to use that offer to tell them they were my first choice (this was genuine, not fake) and that I would decline the other offer if they anticipated making me an offer. Their response indicated to me that an offer was forthcoming and so I declined the other offer. (Early August)
- Finally get an offer from favorite firm (Yesterday)

This was a process that took over a year. I networked the whole time, informational interviews, responded to postings, attending events, etc. I have HUGE base of contacts in both the fly over state and in my home state. In the end, it was the one thing that I didn’t think likely to be rewarding, the ad. I figured the ad would help me network, but I never thought a firm would contact me based on the ad and hire me from it. It’s a small firm and I believe that I was the only candidate considered. To be sure, no ad was ever posted as I’ve been checking postings daily.

I also worked on my interviewing and networking skills. I used the book “Guerilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams” by Kimm Walton. This book is GOLD. It gives so much advice and is worth reading every last page (it’s very long, but very worth it). At every interview I was confident and put nerves aside. I tried to be genuine and honest at interviews. So when I really was a good fit, I knew it and the firm knew it too. I wasn’t worried about getting dinged by telling my favorite firm they were my favorite. I wanted them to feel my excitement work for them. I didn’t pussy foot around and just told them this. I told them I’d commit to the firm for the long-term and contribute to the growth and development of the firm. All these things were honest and genuine- I wasn’t bullshitting them. I think this is key- my genuine excitement came through in my communications.

I am not trying to brag in this post. Rather I am trying to provide hope to everyone searching or who will be searching soon. I had a very rough year with ups and downs. I was certain I wouldn’t find anything or would settle for something really crappy. I struggled immensely with depression and was full of regrets. I moved my family to another state and still couldn’t succeed as an attorney. We were going to be away from family and friends and be unemployed. I also wasn’t thrilled with the idea of taking a new bar exam in the fly over state. But I was facing that and paying lots of money to sign up for it.

This position is EXACTLY what I wanted and I am thrilled. I clicked with the people and the practice area. I knew it was right for me at the interview. I spent the long car drive home fantasizing about working with them. It was a long month waiting to get the offer, but it was totally worth it now. It moves my spouse and I back to our home state and to our families. It’s in a great area with a low cost of living but accessibility to larger city amenities.

Do everything you can while job searching. NOTHING is a waste of time. You will get a series of no’s and it will feel like a waste of time UNTIL you get your yes. And we’ll all eventually get a yes. The more you pound the pavement, network, make connections, and get your name out there, the more likely it will happen. It doesn’t guarantee success but just applying to postings is not enough.

Good luck to everyone out there searching. If anyone wants to chat with me, I am happy to talk. PM me. I am always open to making connections to other attorneys and professionals. So many people helped me while networking and I will absolutely repay that favor to anyone I can.

Editing only to add: I spoke with the firm this morning and received the official offer. The salary is lower than what I make in the clerkship. It is not an unreasonable or shitlaw salary, so I am accepting the offer. I also think the future opportunity of joining this firm outweighs a temporary salary setback. I only add this because I think it's important that we not limit ourselves by some pre-established parameter that may or may not be possible in this job market. I know most of us would take any offer extended, no matter the salary. But for anyone setting a minimun salary, reconsider and look at the entire opportunity. One step back, two steps forward.
Last edited by aliens on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:35 am

That's a pretty good story dude. Congratulations bro

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:02 am

Thanks for the story :)

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iceman219
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby iceman219 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:17 pm

Great story. A lot of people will read your story and think "I don't have a prayer at a federal clerkship opportunity" or "I don't have a SO as a support mechanism if I'm unemployed" or whatever. The moral of the story, however, is this:

Do everything you can while job searching. NOTHING is a waste of time. You will get a series of no’s and it will feel like a waste of time UNTIL you get your yes. And we’ll all eventually get a yes. The more you pound the pavement, network, make connections, and get your name out there, the more likely it will happen. It doesn’t guarantee success but just applying to postings is not enough.


I am still plugging away at the jerb search; it's a little discouraging at the moment, but I think it partially has to do with being in a lull, after so much focus on studying, post-Bar exam.

Remember, it only takes ONE firm or ONE application to whisk you out of the Vale

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby adonai » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:55 pm

iceman219 wrote:Great story. A lot of people will read your story and think "I don't have a prayer at a federal clerkship opportunity" or "I don't have a SO as a support mechanism if I'm unemployed" or whatever.

This. I sincerely congratulate you, but if you had a federal clerkship and couldn't get any bites, I don't know how that makes me feel. No federal judge would touch me with a 100 ft. pole based on my stats, not even in flyover country.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Stanford4Me » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:44 pm

If you don't have the Guerilla Tactics book, I highly recommend it. It helped me secure my 1L gig and I've been using it for interviews/follow ups that I believe will be an offer in the middle of next week.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:22 pm

adonai wrote:
iceman219 wrote:Great story. A lot of people will read your story and think "I don't have a prayer at a federal clerkship opportunity" or "I don't have a SO as a support mechanism if I'm unemployed" or whatever.

This. I sincerely congratulate you, but if you had a federal clerkship and couldn't get any bites, I don't know how that makes me feel. No federal judge would touch me with a 100 ft. pole based on my stats, not even in flyover country.

I have nowhere near AIII clerkship stats

I had a couple offers

Most 3L hiring is not highly dependent on credentials

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:42 pm

3L simplicity related question. If you no longer have the option to opt out from being waitlisted with a firm, yet you have that option for other firms, what exactly does it mean? I certainly did not press the opt out button... was the firm like f*ck this guy, kick him out of the waitlist :lol: ??

Oh, I figured the answer I think. As you get closer to that particular firm's interview date, simplicity kicks you out... I think... this is depressing...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:16 pm

Hey all. Applying for a job with a gov't department. They want all jobs for ten years. Earlier this summer I had a firm ask me to stay on in the Fall. I turned them down because they were absolutely AWFUL. So they asked me to leave.

How do I phrase that under "Reason For Leaving"?




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