The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:52 pm

Bikeflip wrote:Question for the graduated valers: How are you holding up with bar prep? I honestly feel overwhelmed every so often. I just calm down and say "60-65% is passing, breh"


I've stopped focusing on jerb searches at the moment. I apply to Symplicity stuff, but if I don't have anything after the bar is over, I can always get a temp doc review job or something until results come out. But if I don't pass the bar, then that's way worse than not having a job lined up after the bar. And I can't focus on a jerb search and bar prep at the same time.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:32 pm

kalvano wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:Question for the graduated valers: How are you holding up with bar prep? I honestly feel overwhelmed every so often. I just calm down and say "60-65% is passing, breh"


I've stopped focusing on jerb searches at the moment. I apply to Symplicity stuff, but if I don't have anything after the bar is over, I can always get a temp doc review job or something until results come out. But if I don't pass the bar, then that's way worse than not having a job lined up after the bar. And I can't focus on a jerb search and bar prep at the same time.



I've mostly suspended my jerb search, for the reasons you stated. Still, I start thinking "OMG WHAT IF I FAIL?!" and panic for a few minutes.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:49 pm

Bikeflip wrote:
kalvano wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:Question for the graduated valers: How are you holding up with bar prep? I honestly feel overwhelmed every so often. I just calm down and say "60-65% is passing, breh"


I've stopped focusing on jerb searches at the moment. I apply to Symplicity stuff, but if I don't have anything after the bar is over, I can always get a temp doc review job or something until results come out. But if I don't pass the bar, then that's way worse than not having a job lined up after the bar. And I can't focus on a jerb search and bar prep at the same time.



I've mostly suspended my jerb search, for the reasons you stated. Still, I start thinking "OMG WHAT IF I FAIL?!" and panic for a few minutes.


I know this may not help you feel better but the bar exam is nothing like a law school exam. You honestly do not have to know everything and every nuance of every issue. You probably have to dumb down your approach to the essays and just try to get the basics down. Try not to panic if you don't remember each little bit of a subject. I know I had essays where I couldn't remember every element, I just wrote down what I could remember in very simple, clear sentences and then went on to the next one. You aren't aiming to get an A on the exam, you just need to pass. Passing is attainable.

Read the exam questions carefully and use your exam taking smarts to help you. You already are pros at long multiple choice exams and at exam time management. You will do fine.

(And remember, if you do fail, which you won't, you can take it again. Your career won't end if you have to take it again.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:45 am

Bikeflip wrote:Question for the graduated valers: How are you holding up with bar prep? I honestly feel overwhelmed every so often. I just calm down and say "60-65% is passing, breh"


Being in the Vale has made bar prep harder, I think. For one, no offer meant no help paying for bar prep and no stipend, so I had to work. Also, it's hard to get motivated for this dumb shit rite of passage when there's nothing waiting on the other side of it.

Just press on and try to make a little time every day to do something that makes you feel good. Going to the gym and playing with my dog help me immensely.



Also, just want to point out that I made a thread that made ATL and got stickied out of the lounge. This is my biggest professional accomplishment of 2013 so far.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:50 pm

This is a full-time position for a 1 to 2 year period. Judge Butler is a district court judge for the 5th Judicial District. Chambers is in Jerome, Idaho. This position is open to law students who will graduate before August 2014 or applicants who have a J.D.
Law clerks obtain experience writing and editing judicial opinions, conducting research on a variety of legal topics, and observing courtroom proceedings. Law clerks will have the opportunity observe jury trials and weekly hearings.
Judge Butler has law and motion days in Jerome, Gooding, and Lincoln Counties. Law and motion days are held on Mondays and Tuesdays.
The law clerk is responsible for preparing for law and motion days by drafting judgments and orders. This is a writing-intensive position, and the clerk can expect to draft and edit numerous decisions on motions to suppress, motions for summary judgment, and appeals. The law clerk is also responsible for drafting jury instructions and occasionally will assist with post-conviction relief cases.

Compensation Details
Approximately $45,000 plus benefits
Documents Required
Cover Letter, Unofficial Transcript, Writing Sample, Other Documents
Additional Documents Notes
No Letters of Recommendation
List of 3 References with Email Addresses
Writing Sample No Greater than 10 Pages

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:03 pm

Description of Experience
The United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit is now accepting applications from smart, hardworking third-year law students or recent law school graduates to serve in two-year clerkships as staff attorneys in St. Louis, Missouri, beginning in August 2014. Staff attorneys work under the direction of the Senior Staff Attorney for the court as a whole, primarily preparing legal memoranda and proposed per curiam opinions for cases in which a party is proceeding without an attorney, and for counseled cases that are decided by the court on the briefs.
Candidates should excel in legal research and analysis, and should be superior writers who wish to become better writers. Candidates must be willing and able to work with an editor. A demonstrated commitment to justice is desirable. Multiple
positions may be filled from this job posting. Candidates are being sought on a nationwide basis; must be U.S. citizens or eligible to work in the United States; must agree to be paid by direct deposit; and are subject to a background check. The court is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Application through OSCAR is preferred. Although the application closing date is November 1, 2013, hiring decisions may be made and hiring completed before this date.

Minimum qualifications for a CL 27, Step 25 level are
graduation with a J.D. or LL.B. degree from an accredited law school, and one year of specialized experience, which may be satisfied by superior academic performance in law school. Candidates with experience may be placed at a higher level. Qualified candidates are eligible for future promotion.

Law Review/Journal Membership
Preferred?: Yes
Moot Court Participation Preferred?: No
Bar Membership Preferred?: No
Specialized Work Experience
Preferred?: No
Class Standing Preferred: 25%
.
Your Class Level
3L Full-time/4L Part-time, Graduate/Alumni, Reciprocity (Other School) JD
Compensation Details
$57,408 (for candidates with minimum qualifications)

Application through OSCAR is preferred.

https://oscar.symplicity.com/

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:50 pm

I think this has been touched on before, but what are the thoughts on taking a docreview job to generate some income between taking the bar and (hopefully) finding a permanent position? I know the job itself is mind numbing, but is it a "scarlet letter" that will prevent you from getting a more permanent job?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:44 pm

I'm the really depressed anon from several pages back. Thanks for all the support--I really appreciate it, coming from complete strangers no less!

In addition to counseling, do we have to disclose psych meds taken (i.e. for ADHD, depression, etc.) for C&F purposes?

Also, OP should edit thread title to reflect the many '12 and '13 grads still struggling to find FT work...

NYstate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the really depressed anon from several pages back. Thanks for all the support--I really appreciate it, coming from complete strangers no less!

In addition to counseling, do we have to disclose psych meds taken (i.e. for ADHD, depression, etc.) for C&F purposes?

Also, OP should edit thread title to reflect the many '12 and '13 grads still struggling to find FT work...


Everyone in New York is on some kind of medication it seems. If you need medicine to help you, just get it and see if it works. If you have to disclose it, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't know the actual answer to that question but I know so many people who are on some kind of psych med that it seems like not a big deal.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:I think this has been touched on before, but what are the thoughts on taking a docreview job to generate some income between taking the bar and (hopefully) finding a permanent position? I know the job itself is mind numbing, but is it a "scarlet letter" that will prevent you from getting a more permanent job?


You don't have to list it on your resume as you're applying for other things. Of course, if you have to keep doing it well after the bar and getting your license, you'll either have to list it or explain the gap in your resume. Maybe try to volunteer a few hours a week at this or that legal aid while you're doing the doc review to have a resume line for that time period?

(btw, I think it's utter shit to have to volunteer for resume filler after law school and hope you don't ultimately have to do it, but I'm just brainstorming here)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:28 am

How long is too long of a gap in a resume after bar results? With the way the job market is now, isn't it a reasonable explanation for a gap that you simply haven't been able to find a position yet?

I'm also curious as to how this might apply to taking some time off and travel - I'm interested in maybe taking 2 months off, to go home and to travel for a few weeks, will having a gap from the time of the bar (August) until, say, end of September be a red flag for employers?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:How long is too long of a gap in a resume after bar results? With the way the job market is now, isn't it a reasonable explanation for a gap that you simply haven't been able to find a position yet?

I'm also curious as to how this might apply to taking some time off and travel - I'm interested in maybe taking 2 months off, to go home and to travel for a few weeks, will having a gap from the time of the bar (August) until, say, end of September be a red flag for employers?


Not really sure as to the first. As to the second, I kind of doubt it's a problem. After all, you won't even find out if you passed until October.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:41 am

NYstate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the really depressed anon from several pages back. Thanks for all the support--I really appreciate it, coming from complete strangers no less!

In addition to counseling, do we have to disclose psych meds taken (i.e. for ADHD, depression, etc.) for C&F purposes?

Also, OP should edit thread title to reflect the many '12 and '13 grads still struggling to find FT work...


Everyone in New York is on some kind of medication it seems. If you need medicine to help you, just get it and see if it works. If you have to disclose it, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't know the actual answer to that question but I know so many people who are on some kind of psych med that it seems like not a big deal.


Pending admission to NY Feb graduate. I haven't had to disclose anything about my medical history w/ depression, even though I did go part time for a period to go into a day treatment program at a hospital and am on several medication. I've probably convinced my therapist to open up shop right next to a law school at this point. If you took time off, then maybe would have to discuss it, but they can't hold it against you or no one could be a lawyer in NY (I met plenty of lawyers in the hospital from a range of employers).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:02 pm

Even though I'm trying to focus on the bar, I can't help but apply for a few jobs a day (I probably shouldn't be wasting my time, but I am). Then I keep checking my e-mail praying one of the employers will get back to me. Since I'm doing policy/public interest, most of the openings are actually for the near future, so I feel like they would not wait months to get back to me if I had a chance.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bjsesq » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:39 pm

I've opted out of taking for the bar for now after getting rejection 500-something. Good luck to those still taking.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think this has been touched on before, but what are the thoughts on taking a docreview job to generate some income between taking the bar and (hopefully) finding a permanent position? I know the job itself is mind numbing, but is it a "scarlet letter" that will prevent you from getting a more permanent job?


My understanding is that doc review isn't a scarlet letter in and of itself. For most places you can just leave it off your resume when you apply.

The problem is that the longer you are out of law the school, the greater the skill-set that employers expect you to have. For example, I heard of an attorney who was interviewing for entry level public defender jobs two years out of law school and the interviewers almost always want to know how many felony trials the attorney has done. Is this fair when a 3L wouldn't have to have the same experience? No, its not.

My point is not avoid doc review; instead, it is that you should try to get out ASAP. I would say that a part-time gig with a solo or small firm without health benefits is better than doc review since, depending on the firm, you can work on developing transferable skills.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the really depressed anon from several pages back. Thanks for all the support--I really appreciate it, coming from complete strangers no less!

In addition to counseling, do we have to disclose psych meds taken (i.e. for ADHD, depression, etc.) for C&F purposes?

Also, OP should edit thread title to reflect the many '12 and '13 grads still struggling to find FT work...



Look at your state's application. For example, here's Colorado's.

The following questions address recent mental health and chemical or psychological dependency matters. The purpose of these questions is to determine the current fitness of an applicant to practice law. Each applicant is considered on an individualized basis. The mere fact of treatment for mental health problems or chemical or psychological dependency is not, in itself, a basis on which an applicant is ordinarily denied admission to the Colorado bar. The Board of Law Examiners regularly recommends licensing of individuals who have demonstrated personal responsibility and maturity in dealing with mental health and chemical or psychological dependency issues. The Board encourages applicants who may benefit from treatment to seek it. As indicated in the Rules Governing Admission to the Bar, all proceedings conducted pursuant to the Rules are confidential, with certain limited and enumerated exceptions; further, no information is disclosed without giving the applicant advance notice and an opportunity to object. See Rule 201.11.

On occasion a license may be denied when an applicant’s ability to function is impaired in a manner relevant to the practice of law at the time that the licensing decision is made, or when an applicant demonstrates a lack of candor by his or her responses. Protection of the public that will receive legal services underlies the licensing responsibilities assigned to the Board of Law Examiners. Furthermore, each applicant is responsible for demonstrating that he or she possesses the qualifications necessary to practice law. Your response may include information as to why, in your opinion or that of your treatment provider, your condition will not affect your ability to practice law in a competent and professional manner.

The Board does not, by its questions, seek information that is characterized as situational counseling, such as stress counseling, domestic counseling, and grief counseling. Generally, the Board does not view these types of counseling as germane to the issue of whether an applicant is qualified to practice law.

37. Within the past five years, have you undergone treatment for the use of drugs, narcotics, or alcohol; or have you been chemically or psychologically dependent upon their use? If YES, describe in detail, all circumstances, including the nature of the condition, the prescribed treatment, dates, names and addresses of all treatment providers.


38. Within the past five years, have you ever raised the issue of use or consumption of drugs, narcotics, or alcohol or the issue of a mental, emotional, nervous, or behavioral disorder or condition as a defense, mitigation, or explanation for your actions in the course of any administrative or judicial proceeding or investigation; any inquiry or other proceeding; or any proposed termination by an educational institution, employer, government agency, professional organization, or licensing authority? If yes, describe in detail all relevant circumstances including dates, names, and addresses of persons who have knowledge of these matters.


39. Within the past five years, have you been diagnosed with or have you been treated for any of the following: schizophrenia or any other psychotic disorder, delusional disorder, bipolar disorder or manic depressive mood disorder, major depression, antisocial personality disorder, or any other condition which significantly impaired your behavior, judgment, understanding, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to function in school, work, or other important life activities? If YES, describe in detail all circumstances, including the nature of the condition, the prescribed treatment, dates, names and addresses of all treatment providers. (If you are uncertain of a diagnosis, it is your responsibility to check with your treatment providers.)



So in CO, you probably shouldn't have to disclose minor depression, but look up your state's disclosure reqs. If you have any doubt, call the state bar if you have questions. If you still have doubt, contact a C&F attorney or disclose. CO's policy is overdisclosure isn't nearly as bad as underdisclosure, as the latter may involve lying. So when in doubt, disclose.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:08 pm

bjsesq wrote:I've opted out of taking for the bar for now after getting rejection 500-something. Good luck to those still taking.


If you haven't withdrawn already, why not go ahead and take it? You have nothing to lose. I think it is easier to pass the bar then you might think it is. And if you don't pass, you will have a great sense of what to expect next time.

I don't know you but I hate to see you giving up so close to the end.

If you don't take it, my unasked for and probably unwanted advice is to figure out where you want to live and find a way to move there. I know not having money seems insurmountable, but I mean people move to NyC with nothing. Yes it will be challenging , but you seem like a person who can overcome challenges.
I think you need to live somewhere that has a lot of jobs; a large city somewhere.

I know you have had amazingly bad luck but you need to make a plan to move forward. I think you can overcome the situation you are in and end up in a better place.

Like I said, I don't know you but I actually and honestly believe that you can get through this and figure your life out.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:47 pm

To the individual asking about psychiatric medication - if it will improve the quality of your life and prevent depression, take it without worry about the bar app. Some ask, others do not. But it should not prevent you from passing C/F. I couldn't tell you this for a fact because I don't know what state you're in, but mine was pretty lax about everything. Plus, if medication has been recommended, and you believe it will help you - it is worth it. That said, I hope that your outlook continues to get better. You have made it through law school, a lot of people haven't achieved that. It's a bad economy, you and I and everyone else here can't help that. But it's not hopeless. You've gotten far and will go farther.

To the person wanting to not take the bar - my vote is give it a chance! You have nothing to lose at this point :)

I have a Q for everyone here. I followed my SO to the city we are in now, it's a secondary market, I am from a totally different area of the US, and I have an upcoming interview where I know they'll ask about why I'm here. Any ideas as to what is a good, mature response when the truth is, I just went with my SO because they found a job first?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby snowpeach06 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:To the individual asking about psychiatric medication - if it will improve the quality of your life and prevent depression, take it without worry about the bar app. Some ask, others do not. But it should not prevent you from passing C/F. I couldn't tell you this for a fact because I don't know what state you're in, but mine was pretty lax about everything. Plus, if medication has been recommended, and you believe it will help you - it is worth it. That said, I hope that your outlook continues to get better. You have made it through law school, a lot of people haven't achieved that. It's a bad economy, you and I and everyone else here can't help that. But it's not hopeless. You've gotten far and will go farther.

To the person wanting to not take the bar - my vote is give it a chance! You have nothing to lose at this point :)

I have a Q for everyone here. I followed my SO to the city we are in now, it's a secondary market, I am from a totally different area of the US, and I have an upcoming interview where I know they'll ask about why I'm here. Any ideas as to what is a good, mature response when the truth is, I just went with my SO because they found a job first?

I mean, I would say you went because your SO is there - that is understandable. But I would not phrase it like "she got a job first." I would just say she is there, and you wanted to be with her. In other words, they don't have to know you two had an arrangement where you move to wherever one of you gets a job. For all they know your SO has her dream job and you would move with her even if you had to give up some other job because you love her.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:26 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:To the individual asking about psychiatric medication - if it will improve the quality of your life and prevent depression, take it without worry about the bar app. Some ask, others do not. But it should not prevent you from passing C/F. I couldn't tell you this for a fact because I don't know what state you're in, but mine was pretty lax about everything. Plus, if medication has been recommended, and you believe it will help you - it is worth it. That said, I hope that your outlook continues to get better. You have made it through law school, a lot of people haven't achieved that. It's a bad economy, you and I and everyone else here can't help that. But it's not hopeless. You've gotten far and will go farther.

To the person wanting to not take the bar - my vote is give it a chance! You have nothing to lose at this point :)

I have a Q for everyone here. I followed my SO to the city we are in now, it's a secondary market, I am from a totally different area of the US, and I have an upcoming interview where I know they'll ask about why I'm here. Any ideas as to what is a good, mature response when the truth is, I just went with my SO because they found a job first?

I mean, I would say you went because your SO is there - that is understandable. But I would not phrase it like "she got a job first." I would just say she is there, and you wanted to be with her. In other words, they don't have to know you two had an arrangement where you move to wherever one of you gets a job. For all they know your SO has her dream job and you would move with her even if you had to give up some other job because you love her.



Also they don't know your SO. So there's no reason you can't honestly say (assuming it is at least based on truth) that you moved there for your SO because of her ties/love of the city/desire to raise your family there. Then they know you came and want to stay.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:56 pm

Thanks all for advice re: SO. It just doesn't seem like "enough" to just say, yeah I am here with my SO. Won't I look weak in some way, or more dedicated to a relationship than my career?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks all for advice re: SO. It just doesn't seem like "enough" to just say, yeah I am here with my SO. Won't I look weak in some way, or more dedicated to a relationship than my career?


No.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks all for advice re: SO. It just doesn't seem like "enough" to just say, yeah I am here with my SO. Won't I look weak in some way, or more dedicated to a relationship than my career?

I think this is a more common concern if you're a girl (can't say it's never a concern for a guy, I only know about it from the girl's perspective). There's a fear that you won't look serious about your job if you follow your SO and not put your career first. But honestly, it's an explanation that makes sense to everyone. (I have used it and not had any blowback at all.) And if you're looking for the typical slightly-generic firm job, there's no real career reason why that market is worse than anywhere else to start your career. Sure, there are certain specific jobs that would require being a specific location (like, various federal jobs are only/most often available in DC, that kind of thing). But most of the time, that's not the case. So maybe think of it as, even if the SO is the only reason *to* be in the new market, there aren't any reasons *not* to be there, either.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Lwoods » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:12 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thanks all for advice re: SO. It just doesn't seem like "enough" to just say, yeah I am here with my SO. Won't I look weak in some way, or more dedicated to a relationship than my career?


No.


No. Employers just want to know you plan to stay in the city where they are for the foreseeable future. Having an s/o with a job in the city, in is a serious enough relationship to warrant moving for, demonstrates your intent to stay there. With the job prospects for lawyers what they are, many people are just applying to every job opening they can find. Employers don't want to waste their time interviewing you, though, if you're not serious about relocating to their city. Here you've already relocated, which is probably part of the reason you got the interview. On TLS we always talk about the importance of ties, particularly for secondary markets. Your s/o is your tie to that market...and one of the best kind there is (spouse is best because you're expected to live in the same city as your spouse..not so much with parents, undergrad friends, grown children, etc., though those can all be good ties, too). Wouldn't hurt to mention other aspects of the city you like, though, or to keep in mind why you don't want other cities they may ask you about.

Congrats on the interview!




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