The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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sirpartner82
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sirpartner82 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:10 pm

Not something I want to do (assuming I get one of these types of jobs) but I need to eat in September so I will do anything legal related or anything that pays. Seriously thought of working at Home Depot to make ends meet for the time being, assuming they would hire me
.

I really don't understand why so many young people LOL at working retail. I have a client who works at Micheal's Crafts as a manager and makes $21 an hour and gets health bennies for her kids. It's ultra-low stress, she pretty much just hangs around, chats with customers, etc. She only has a high-school diploma and is 26 years old. She's in much better shape than the average non-Biglaw/non T14 law grad, who has to beg/grovel for that same salary to grind bale after bale of makework, cut n' paste shitpaper and usually no health bennies and no real future whatsoever.

Home Depot is an easy gig but they don't give an employee discount which sucks, although if you make pals with some of the contractors they might take you on as a laborer. If you can learn a decent amount of "handyman" type skills, you'll be much richer & more marketable and have much better quality of life than being a shitlaw schumck. In my area of NJ most handyman-type guys charge 35 to 40 an hour, often getting paid in cash. And their workday is much lower stress and more interesting than gutter-sucking shitlaw.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:24 pm

sirpartner82 wrote:
Not something I want to do (assuming I get one of these types of jobs) but I need to eat in September so I will do anything legal related or anything that pays. Seriously thought of working at Home Depot to make ends meet for the time being, assuming they would hire me
.

I really don't understand why so many young people LOL at working retail. I have a client who works at Micheal's Crafts as a manager and makes $21 an hour and gets health bennies for her kids. It's ultra-low stress, she pretty much just hangs around, chats with customers, etc. She only has a high-school diploma and is 26 years old. She's in much better shape than the average non-Biglaw/non T14 law grad, who has to beg/grovel for that same salary to grind bale after bale of makework, cut n' paste shitpaper and usually no health bennies and no real future whatsoever.

Home Depot is an easy gig but they don't give an employee discount which sucks, although if you make pals with some of the contractors they might take you on as a laborer. If you can learn a decent amount of "handyman" type skills, you'll be much richer & more marketable and have much better quality of life than being a shitlaw schumck. In my area of NJ most handyman-type guys charge 35 to 40 an hour, often getting paid in cash. And their workday is much lower stress and more interesting than gutter-sucking shitlaw.


Person you quoted above here. I wasn't LOLing at Home Depot. I live right beside one and am seriously considering trying to work there to make ends meet in this interim period between the bar and until I find a job. I am not above it by no means.

Also, you can rag on me if you want. If I have to take a "shitlaw schumck" job in the meantime, I will do it. I want to be a lawyer and it seems hard to get a decent job if you don't have any experience. Doing shitlaw will at least put food on the table and give me some marketable experience.

P.S... TX>>>>>>>>>>>>> NJ

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bk1
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby bk1 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:23 am

Sirpartner: this is not the shitlawsucksgodoBIGRETAILinstead thread. Final and only warning.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:29 am

bk1 wrote:Sirpartner: this is not the shitlawsucksgodoBIGRETAILinstead thread. Final and only warning.


Gotta lol @ BIGRETAIL. Well played.

sirpartner82
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sirpartner82 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:55 pm

Also, you can rag on me if you want. If I have to take a "shitlaw schumck" job in the meantime, I will do it. I want to be a lawyer and it seems hard to get a decent job if you don't have any experience. Doing shitlaw will at least put food on the table and give me some marketable experience.


Er, no. Doing "shitlaw" doesn't lead to "marketable experience," it just leads to more low-paying shitlaw. One does not rise from bickering over traffic tickets and fender-benders to international M&A work/partnership at prestigious firm.

But I guess you'll just have to find this out the hard way. Godspeed.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:22 pm

sirpartner82 wrote:
Also, you can rag on me if you want. If I have to take a "shitlaw schumck" job in the meantime, I will do it. I want to be a lawyer and it seems hard to get a decent job if you don't have any experience. Doing shitlaw will at least put food on the table and give me some marketable experience.


Er, no. Doing "shitlaw" doesn't lead to "marketable experience," it just leads to more low-paying shitlaw. One does not rise from bickering over traffic tickets and fender-benders to international M&A work/partnership at prestigious firm.

But I guess you'll just have to find this out the hard way. Godspeed.


It's all relative brother. If my goal was to do international M&A work or be a partner at a billion attorney firm, then you're right -- I couldn't make that jump. But, if I wanted to get litigation experience at a 4 attorney PI firm (your "shitlaw") for a year or two and then lateral to a mid-size firm of like 30-50 attorneys, I believe that is possible my man.

Thanks everyone for your imput. Very helpful. Let's just keep fighting the good fight and keep the faith. We got this.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:54 pm

Friend of mine who just graduated with me from a TT with slightly above median grades picked up and moved to a state 2000 miles away with zero connections, met with a few attorneys for coffee for a month and just landed an entry-level in house position with a international pharmaceutical company (offices in at least 20 countries) before even passing the bar. I have absolutely no idea how he managed this, as I am not even getting a response to applying for posted small firm 35K gigs and I have the better grades and better resume, but it goes to show that a lot of this is luck and positions are available. Luck truly is an insane factor.

sirpartner82
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby sirpartner82 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:51 pm

It's all relative brother. If my goal was to do international M&A work or be a partner at a billion attorney firm, then you're right -- I couldn't make that jump. But, if I wanted to get litigation experience at a 4 attorney PI firm (your "shitlaw") for a year or two and then lateral to a mid-size firm of like 30-50 attorneys, I believe that is possible my man.


Actually, it isn't. Most PI firms are very small (one to five attorneys) and nearly all the "ordinary" cases (trip/fall, fender bender, etc) settle shortly after the complaint is filed (or at longest after depositions) for small amounts, like 5 to 25 K. No one is going to waste time & effort on a trial for the typical PI case- it isn't worth the time, and board-certified orthopedic surgeons get from 5 to 7 K for an hour's testimony, which the firm has to shell out upfront (it's not like PI clients ever have two nickels to rub together). And the insurance company is ALWAYS bringing an MD, so you can't go to trial with your sister-law in-law the bedpan dumper as your medical "expert."

Every small PI firm has a few whopper cases in the pipeline from time to time, but those cases will only be worked on by the partners. Your role is to copy/paste the boilerplate pleadings together for the routine cases, maybe take some depositions (which are a complete joke BTW), and answer the 10,000 phone calls a day where the ranting basket cases who are most PI clients ask for "case status" and "when is my money comin' boss?"

You are correct that it is possible to leave small PI firms for mid-sized ID firms, but these places pay crap and are basically where attorneys without the "juice" to get their own PI cases/solo end up. Expect to "top out" at a low salary- 65-70 K is the ceiling after 5 or 10 years. Expect biglaw-style hours too for that peanut pay. Just check out JD Underground to hear about what a blast ID work is.

As to going solo as a PI attorney, about the only way to do it w/out a huge advertising budget is to have a family member who's a chiro or physical therapist to steer you cases, or else "affiliate" with a place like that that send you cases and in return you funnel them back illegal cash kickbacks on the settled cases. That's how the game works, son. TX has also had some major-league tort reform and is very anti-plaintiff, so you should probably avoid PI law anyway, those trailer-trash redneck juries aren't giving Paco who tripped/fell at the bodega whilst cashing his food-stamp checks and has a torn meniscus a million buck verdict.

Welcome to reality.

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Postby Myself » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:09 pm

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:56 pm

sirpartner82 wrote:
It's all relative brother. If my goal was to do international M&A work or be a partner at a billion attorney firm, then you're right -- I couldn't make that jump. But, if I wanted to get litigation experience at a 4 attorney PI firm (your "shitlaw") for a year or two and then lateral to a mid-size firm of like 30-50 attorneys, I believe that is possible my man.


Actually, it isn't. Most PI firms are very small (one to five attorneys) and nearly all the "ordinary" cases (trip/fall, fender bender, etc) settle shortly after the complaint is filed (or at longest after depositions) for small amounts, like 5 to 25 K. No one is going to waste time & effort on a trial for the typical PI case- it isn't worth the time, and board-certified orthopedic surgeons get from 5 to 7 K for an hour's testimony, which the firm has to shell out upfront (it's not like PI clients ever have two nickels to rub together). And the insurance company is ALWAYS bringing an MD, so you can't go to trial with your sister-law in-law the bedpan dumper as your medical "expert."

Every small PI firm has a few whopper cases in the pipeline from time to time, but those cases will only be worked on by the partners. Your role is to copy/paste the boilerplate pleadings together for the routine cases, maybe take some depositions (which are a complete joke BTW), and answer the 10,000 phone calls a day where the ranting basket cases who are most PI clients ask for "case status" and "when is my money comin' boss?"

You are correct that it is possible to leave small PI firms for mid-sized ID firms, but these places pay crap and are basically where attorneys without the "juice" to get their own PI cases/solo end up. Expect to "top out" at a low salary- 65-70 K is the ceiling after 5 or 10 years. Expect biglaw-style hours too for that peanut pay. Just check out JD Underground to hear about what a blast ID work is.

As to going solo as a PI attorney, about the only way to do it w/out a huge advertising budget is to have a family member who's a chiro or physical therapist to steer you cases, or else "affiliate" with a place like that that send you cases and in return you funnel them back illegal cash kickbacks on the settled cases. That's how the game works, son. TX has also had some major-league tort reform and is very anti-plaintiff, so you should probably avoid PI law anyway, those trailer-trash redneck juries aren't giving Paco who tripped/fell at the bodega whilst cashing his food-stamp checks and has a torn meniscus a million buck verdict.

Welcome to reality.


Person A: "You need to get a job with biglaw, thats where the money is."
Person B: "The economy is really bad and I struck out at OCI and have tried to find some partners to speak with but at this point its already 3L so I'm freaking out. I'm excited though cause a have this boutique firm I am talking to that seems promising so hopefully I wont be unemployed."
Person A: "No, are you kidding me? You need biglaw. If you take some small firm you're gonna be screwed for life. Good luck with your 50K salary, what a waste of a law degree."
Person B: "Ok, I'm not sure what part of "The economy sucks and biglaw hires very rarely outside of SAs". I need a job of some sort, and I thought small firms could still give me some solid experience."
Person A: *Ignoring everything said and the economy numbers* "No, you need big law. This is reality pal, face it, you'll never make anything without biglaw. I'm gonna give you a really long speech on why you really should only shoot for biglaw."
Person B: "Ok, well now I'm shooting for biglaw, so are you getting me this job tomorrow or should I just wait for Skadden to come knocking on my door?"

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kalvano
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby kalvano » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
kalvano wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:In need of help from the Vale. 2 things. What is the going per hour rate for a "part-time attorney?" Small Plaintiff's firm. Seemingly well respected. Most of the partners have awesome credentials and are big-law allums. Located in Texas. (Houston/Dallas/Austin). Also, what is the normal rate per hour for a purely 100% doc review gig. Same location.

I was thinking $30-$40 for the Plaintiffs firm and slightly less for doc review?



Houston, Dallas, and Austin all have very different "rates" for things like that.


It's in Dallas.

sirpartner82 wrote:
In need of help from the Vale. 2 things. What is the going per hour rate for a "part-time attorney?" Small Plaintiff's firm. Seemingly well respected. Most of the partners have awesome credentials and are big-law allums. Located in Texas. (Houston/Dallas/Austin). Also, what is the normal rate per hour for a purely 100% doc review gig. Same location.

I was thinking $30-$40 for the Plaintiffs firm and slightly less for doc review?


Looks like doc review in Austin, TX is $21 an hour for licensed attorneys:

--LinkRemoved--

As to actually practicing substantive law as a temp, looks like a couple years after licensure you could be at $26 an hour:

--LinkRemoved--

Of course, the $26 an hour job will likely have plenty of applicants with 10 or more years experience, since lawyers are dime a dozen and a JD/bar passage a basically worthless credential in terms of earning power. In the new America, a law degree virtually assures a lower or "working class" living, akin to a retail store manager or landscape crew laborer, etc. Basically similar in earning power to a G.E.D. Even worse if loans are subtracted from salary.

HTH


Thanks for the info. I would think it should be similar in Dallas. Not sure though. Not something I want to do (assuming I get one of these types of jobs) but I need to eat in September so I will do anything legal related or anything that pays. Seriously thought of working at Home Depot to make ends meet for the time being, assuming they would hire me.



I got paid $25/hour as a 3L to assist solos with pleadings and research. If you're a grad waiting on bar results, $30/hour shouldn't be unreasonable.

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20160810
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 20160810 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:51 pm

sirpartner82 wrote:
Not something I want to do (assuming I get one of these types of jobs) but I need to eat in September so I will do anything legal related or anything that pays. Seriously thought of working at Home Depot to make ends meet for the time being, assuming they would hire me
.

I really don't understand why so many young people LOL at working retail. I have a client who works at Micheal's Crafts as a manager and makes $21 an hour and gets health bennies for her kids. It's ultra-low stress, she pretty much just hangs around, chats with customers, etc. She only has a high-school diploma and is 26 years old. She's in much better shape than the average non-Biglaw/non T14 law grad, who has to beg/grovel for that same salary to grind bale after bale of makework, cut n' paste shitpaper and usually no health bennies and no real future whatsoever.

Home Depot is an easy gig but they don't give an employee discount which sucks, although if you make pals with some of the contractors they might take you on as a laborer. If you can learn a decent amount of "handyman" type skills, you'll be much richer & more marketable and have much better quality of life than being a shitlaw schumck. In my area of NJ most handyman-type guys charge 35 to 40 an hour, often getting paid in cash. And their workday is much lower stress and more interesting than gutter-sucking shitlaw.

Your clients are individuals who make $21 an hour? And you're giving people advice about how to be successful in the legal profession? OK.

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ndirish2010
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:51 pm

areyouinsane is back...he might have toned down a bit but the posts are obviously him.

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Mick Haller
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Mick Haller » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:56 pm

I am working at a mid sized insurance defense firm @75k. I love it, coworkers are great, full health benefits, go to court 1-2 times per month. Not a single complaint from me. 75k is my starting salary. I figure modest bumps of 1-2k per year, plus yearly bonuses of roughly $2k.

ITE it's an amazing legal job.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:09 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:areyouinsane is back...he might have toned down a bit but the posts are obviously him.

Yeah, evidently Turkey Mutombo'd his attempt to flee soul crushing debt.

Anonymous User
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:24 pm

I have my first interview since January next week. I sent my materials in to a posting for a small firm associate position on my school's job board late one night just before the July 4th and the named partner called me the next afternoon to schedule an interview for immediately after the holiday. I hope that is a good sign. The phone call lasted all of two seconds so I have no idea what to expect as far as the format of the interview and level of interest. This is a small firm but in a practice area I would enjoy. Probably low base pay but with the chance of significant bonuses because they win/settle very profitably.

The speed with which the partner scheduled the interview also gave me an insight that is both reassuring and troubling. My resume matches up perfectly with this partner and this firm. Not only that I worked at a similar firm and have a resume that fits the firm's focus, but that my interests/extracurriculars/other law school experiences match what this partner does outside of practicing law to a T. Right down to where I grew up; I think some of my close family members even cross paths with the partner in social/political/volunteer activities. The partner would know all the people that I worked with at different law school jobs and internships who are all part of the same circle in a fairly small community. I didn't network my way into the interview but the names on my resume make it like networking. I don't know if I will get the job but my resume's particular combination of basic qualifications and common ground is what got me the interview so quickly, I think. It's kind of the luck element. And every time I apply for a job for which I'm imminently qualified and DON'T even get a screener, and freak out about it, I'm kind of realizing that this is what's happening. There's someone with similar qualifications and that "something extra." They don't need to interview 20 people with good qualifications when 5 of those people have the something extra that clicks. It's very precise and very random at the same time. It makes me feel better - I'm not necessarily doing something terribly wrong. But it also scares me - when will that "click" happen again? If I go another six months without an interview I'll cry myself to sleep every night...

I could also use some advice about that mysterious "negotiable" salary. Let's say this goes as well as I hope it does and I'm close to getting an offer and am asked about my salary expectations. Going rate for small firms in my area is probably 35-50k but this firm has some characteristics that make me think it could go higher than that. I don't want to sell myself short but also want the job. I have some good substantive prelaw work experience with a salary history close to the 50k upper range of small firm salaries around here. Is there a way to ask for more than 50k without losing the offer by asking for what I think I'm worth but making clear I will gladly trade a good deal of salary expectation for the right job and experience, which I think this firm offers?

I have less than 48 hours to chill the F out and make sure I don't reek of desperation... Wish me luck...

rad lulz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have my first interview since January next week. I sent my materials in to a posting for a small firm associate position on my school's job board late one night just before the July 4th and the named partner called me the next afternoon to schedule an interview for immediately after the holiday. I hope that is a good sign. The phone call lasted all of two seconds so I have no idea what to expect as far as the format of the interview and level of interest. This is a small firm but in a practice area I would enjoy. Probably low base pay but with the chance of significant bonuses because they win/settle very profitably.

The speed with which the partner scheduled the interview also gave me an insight that is both reassuring and troubling. My resume matches up perfectly with this partner and this firm. Not only that I worked at a similar firm and have a resume that fits the firm's focus, but that my interests/extracurriculars/other law school experiences match what this partner does outside of practicing law to a T. Right down to where I grew up; I think some of my close family members even cross paths with the partner in social/political/volunteer activities. The partner would know all the people that I worked with at different law school jobs and internships who are all part of the same circle in a fairly small community. I didn't network my way into the interview but the names on my resume make it like networking. I don't know if I will get the job but my resume's particular combination of basic qualifications and common ground is what got me the interview so quickly, I think. It's kind of the luck element. And every time I apply for a job for which I'm imminently qualified and DON'T even get a screener, and freak out about it, I'm kind of realizing that this is what's happening. There's someone with similar qualifications and that "something extra." They don't need to interview 20 people with good qualifications when 5 of those people have the something extra that clicks. It's very precise and very random at the same time. It makes me feel better - I'm not necessarily doing something terribly wrong. But it also scares me - when will that "click" happen again? If I go another six months without an interview I'll cry myself to sleep every night...

I could also use some advice about that mysterious "negotiable" salary. Let's say this goes as well as I hope it does and I'm close to getting an offer and am asked about my salary expectations. Going rate for small firms in my area is probably 35-50k but this firm has some characteristics that make me think it could go higher than that. I don't want to sell myself short but also want the job. I have some good substantive prelaw work experience with a salary history close to the 50k upper range of small firm salaries around here. Is there a way to ask for more than 50k without losing the offer by asking for what I think I'm worth but making clear I will gladly trade a good deal of salary expectation for the right job and experience, which I think this firm offers?

I have less than 48 hours to chill the F out and make sure I don't reek of desperation... Wish me luck...

gl hf my dood

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby NYstate » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:35 pm

Good luck. This sounds promising. The conversation was probably short because its a weekend. Be cool and excited about the job. You can be relaxed because they know you already.

I don't have any concrete advise about salary. If you can ask to discuss after the offer? Or give them a range.

I know there are some good books on salary negotiation. Maybe you can find some advice online.

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Postby Myself » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:29 am

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Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:49 am

Question for all of you that are recently graduated - when reaching out to firms/specific attorneys, is requesting informational interviews a good idea, or is it better to be more direct and inquire about potential positions? Because I'm also looking for post-bar law clerk positions, should any e-mails be directed at inquiring as to whether the firm takes on post-bar law clerks?

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Postby Myself » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:15 am

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aliens
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby aliens » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:59 am

ajax adonis wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Question for all of you that are recently graduated - when reaching out to firms/specific attorneys, is requesting informational interviews a good idea, or is it better to be more direct and inquire about potential positions? Because I'm also looking for post-bar law clerk positions, should any e-mails be directed at inquiring as to whether the firm takes on post-bar law clerks?


If you know that the firm has taken post-bar clerks before, I would ask them if they're still doing it.

In general, I've found that it's more productive to ask for information interviews than to directly ask if they have a job for you. Most attorneys will be turned off by the latter move. However, if you ask for an informational interview, and ask if they know any places that might be interviewing or hiring, that could be a more fruitful, productive way to get a job. other people can chime in.



This. It's absolutely more productive to ask for advice, information, and referrals, than for a job.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:08 pm

A reference recommended me to a job. It is govt. Spoke to the head of the OGC that is going to be doing the hiring already.

Problem is he told me to send me an email and "he would let me know" when the job is posted up. This was a month ago. I called two weeks ago to follow up and his secretary said "keep on checking USA jobs." Would it be bad if I called on Monday to figure out? or I should wait?

lukertin
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lukertin » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A reference recommended me to a job. It is govt. Spoke to the head of the OGC that is going to be doing the hiring already.

Problem is he told me to send me an email and "he would let me know" when the job is posted up. This was a month ago. I called two weeks ago to follow up and his secretary said "keep on checking USA jobs." Would it be bad if I called on Monday to figure out? or I should wait?

The most you can do (and should have done) is ask when they think it'll be posted on USAjobs. Sign up for the automatic alerts, you can set up a search agent that emails you when jobs matching your search criteria are posted.

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chrisbru
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby chrisbru » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:07 pm

sirpartner82 wrote:


blahblahblah

Welcome to reality.


I mean, in my hometown of Des Moines, the midsize (10-25) ID firms pay first year associates $60-$70k, and those associates work <50 hours a week unless a big case is coming up. So... Your bullshit isn't true everywhere.




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