The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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beach_terror
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby beach_terror » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:49 pm

kalvano wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:The lesson is to look out for #1 at ALL TIMES because all the employers are doing the same. When I was a 1L I was extremely anti-reneging on an offer saying how its against "the code" and how you're screwing over an employer, etc. Now I am a HUGE proponent of reneging if you have a better offer, think about yourself and no one else. Screw the employers.


I've said this all along, business is business and nothing personal. Sorry you had to come around to this viewpoint the really hard way, man.

My pops instilled this in me from day 1 of my LS career. Companies used to care, which is where the idea of not reneging on an offer came from. Most don't anymore.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:03 pm

beach_terror wrote:
kalvano wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:The lesson is to look out for #1 at ALL TIMES because all the employers are doing the same. When I was a 1L I was extremely anti-reneging on an offer saying how its against "the code" and how you're screwing over an employer, etc. Now I am a HUGE proponent of reneging if you have a better offer, think about yourself and no one else. Screw the employers.


I've said this all along, business is business and nothing personal. Sorry you had to come around to this viewpoint the really hard way, man.

My pops instilled this in me from day 1 of my LS career. Companies used to care, which is where the idea of not reneging on an offer came from. Most don't anymore.

Those were the times bro

It's sorta sad

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:28 pm

I'm still in the Vale, but maybe some kernels of news or hope. I took on a mentor who is a former practice chair of V20 firm, who believes that the market is starting to pick up. It will still require hard work and firms can get away w/ treating us like trash, but hopefully hard work will count for something in the long run.

On the other hand, competition for unpaid positions has become extremely competitive to the detriment of many schools. I was the one who mentioned a Vegas interview earlier in the thread. During the interview, they were quite aware of the school fellowships (many partners are out of touch w/ the associate hiring market), and one issue is that local law graduates are being edged out from district atty offices even in out of the way places like Nevada and Vegas by out of state graduates from higher ranking schools. This means everyone really does need to compete for any sort of experience, so keep pushing. I know studying for the bar is time consuming and stressful (I took the Feb bar), but it is manageable to get some stuff out there and some work in (just reserve at least the last couple weeks for intense studying). Hopefully my Vegas interview goes well and I will be out of the Vale. Good luck.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:36 am

I have been an occasional poster here and appreciated the company of everyone in this thread over a brutal 3L year and start to bar study. Ok, 2L year and 2L summer were brutal for me too. I job hunted until spring break of 2L year and then drove a terrible commute to a sucky job where I had no chance of getting an offer all of 2L summer. Then I did a journal as a 3L to hopefully improve my chances of finding a job. That wasn't fun. My grades dropped 3L year from comfortably with honors to no honors, a mix of running out of motivation and stupidly taking hard classes in areas where I'm weak. Keep that in mind, rising 3Ls...

I have also gained a significant amount of weight and my attitude sucks. I went from being a personable go getter who was fit and trim (and was a good if not the best interviewer) to someone who doesn't make a great impression right now. And it's all about hustle now, but I don't have it, nor do I have the grades I used to (it was a small drop but still stings). I also find myself spending a a lot of time reading discussions on this forum about 2Ls going into OCI and just find myself burning with resentment. I feel jealous instead of relieved when people on this thread have gotten good news. I've also slacked way off of bar studying.

So I'm taking a hiatus from TLS and Above the Law. I'm checking Symplicity and a couple other job boards a couple times a week instead of trolling them constantly. I'll apply to jobs where I clearly fit the qualifications, but I'm not going to refresh Craigslist five times a day anymore or obsess about if I should be networking. I need to pass the bar and focus on that except for setting aside a couple hours every day to get myself in shape physically and mentally. Then after a badly needed (though probably financially unwise) bar trip in August I'll dig in, join every local bar association, and hustle my butt off with coffees and shit.

What sucks but is pathetically hopeful is that despite everything I think I would still like to be an attorney. I hated being in law school but I like doing legal work and working with clients. I have a lot of debt but because of family situation will be able to service it on a small salary. My partner and I don't want to own a big house or have kids, so even on a small law or state government salary I should be able to eat good food and take some cool trips, which is all I really need to be happy. So if I get over the ego and resentment the last few years have built up, and actually FIND that godd*** small firm or state government job, I think I could be pretty happy. But it feels so far away right now. I'm also looking at not making much more money than I did before going to law school, which adds to the sting. I'm going to do some damage control on my mind and body, pass the bar, and then maybe I'll be back here. But for now a source of commiseration has turned into a source of obsession and other bad feelings, so I'm stepping away for now. Best of luck to you all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:I have been an occasional poster here and appreciated the company of everyone in this thread over a brutal 3L year and start to bar study. Ok, 2L year and 2L summer were brutal for me too. I job hunted until spring break of 2L year and then drove a terrible commute to a sucky job where I had no chance of getting an offer all of 2L summer. Then I did a journal as a 3L to hopefully improve my chances of finding a job. That wasn't fun. My grades dropped 3L year from comfortably with honors to no honors, a mix of running out of motivation and stupidly taking hard classes in areas where I'm weak. Keep that in mind, rising 3Ls...

I have also gained a significant amount of weight and my attitude sucks. I went from being a personable go getter who was fit and trim (and was a good if not the best interviewer) to someone who doesn't make a great impression right now. And it's all about hustle now, but I don't have it, nor do I have the grades I used to (it was a small drop but still stings). I also find myself spending a a lot of time reading discussions on this forum about 2Ls going into OCI and just find myself burning with resentment. I feel jealous instead of relieved when people on this thread have gotten good news. I've also slacked way off of bar studying.

So I'm taking a hiatus from TLS and Above the Law. I'm checking Symplicity and a couple other job boards a couple times a week instead of trolling them constantly. I'll apply to jobs where I clearly fit the qualifications, but I'm not going to refresh Craigslist five times a day anymore or obsess about if I should be networking. I need to pass the bar and focus on that except for setting aside a couple hours every day to get myself in shape physically and mentally. Then after a badly needed (though probably financially unwise) bar trip in August I'll dig in, join every local bar association, and hustle my butt off with coffees and shit.

What sucks but is pathetically hopeful is that despite everything I think I would still like to be an attorney. I hated being in law school but I like doing legal work and working with clients. I have a lot of debt but because of family situation will be able to service it on a small salary. My partner and I don't want to own a big house or have kids, so even on a small law or state government salary I should be able to eat good food and take some cool trips, which is all I really need to be happy. So if I get over the ego and resentment the last few years have built up, and actually FIND that godd*** small firm or state government job, I think I could be pretty happy. But it feels so far away right now. I'm also looking at not making much more money than I did before going to law school, which adds to the sting. I'm going to do some damage control on my mind and body, pass the bar, and then maybe I'll be back here. But for now a source of commiseration has turned into a source of obsession and other bad feelings, so I'm stepping away for now. Best of luck to you all.

Godspeed oh my brother

Thanks for sharing

Please come back and let us know how it worked out, if you feel up to it

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:11 pm

Just got an interview for a one-year fellowship at a bank. Bank is in a different city, and I think if I got it, I'd wind up just renting a room there and coming home on weekends.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have been an occasional poster here and appreciated the company of everyone in this thread over a brutal 3L year and start to bar study. Ok, 2L year and 2L summer were brutal for me too. I job hunted until spring break of 2L year and then drove a terrible commute to a sucky job where I had no chance of getting an offer all of 2L summer. Then I did a journal as a 3L to hopefully improve my chances of finding a job. That wasn't fun. My grades dropped 3L year from comfortably with honors to no honors, a mix of running out of motivation and stupidly taking hard classes in areas where I'm weak. Keep that in mind, rising 3Ls...

I have also gained a significant amount of weight and my attitude sucks. I went from being a personable go getter who was fit and trim (and was a good if not the best interviewer) to someone who doesn't make a great impression right now. And it's all about hustle now, but I don't have it, nor do I have the grades I used to (it was a small drop but still stings). I also find myself spending a a lot of time reading discussions on this forum about 2Ls going into OCI and just find myself burning with resentment. I feel jealous instead of relieved when people on this thread have gotten good news. I've also slacked way off of bar studying.

So I'm taking a hiatus from TLS and Above the Law. I'm checking Symplicity and a couple other job boards a couple times a week instead of trolling them constantly. I'll apply to jobs where I clearly fit the qualifications, but I'm not going to refresh Craigslist five times a day anymore or obsess about if I should be networking. I need to pass the bar and focus on that except for setting aside a couple hours every day to get myself in shape physically and mentally. Then after a badly needed (though probably financially unwise) bar trip in August I'll dig in, join every local bar association, and hustle my butt off with coffees and shit.

What sucks but is pathetically hopeful is that despite everything I think I would still like to be an attorney. I hated being in law school but I like doing legal work and working with clients. I have a lot of debt but because of family situation will be able to service it on a small salary. My partner and I don't want to own a big house or have kids, so even on a small law or state government salary I should be able to eat good food and take some cool trips, which is all I really need to be happy. So if I get over the ego and resentment the last few years have built up, and actually FIND that godd*** small firm or state government job, I think I could be pretty happy. But it feels so far away right now. I'm also looking at not making much more money than I did before going to law school, which adds to the sting. I'm going to do some damage control on my mind and body, pass the bar, and then maybe I'll be back here. But for now a source of commiseration has turned into a source of obsession and other bad feelings, so I'm stepping away for now. Best of luck to you all.


This speaks to me. I haven't gained weight, but my attitude sucks too. I've been gunning for jobs so much these past three years that I don't have much left in me to apply for anything anymore. I'd probably be fine if I stayed in the area where I attended law school, but instead I moved to California to be with my S/O, who's driving me crazy now. Cutting yourself off from these forums, ATL, etc. sure made me a happy person during 3L year (or willfully ignorant), but it also lead me to miss a ton of deadlines for jobs b/c I refused to think about the state of this profession.

Now, instead of listening to another bar lecture, I feel like I should keep applying for something, but that requires significant time, effort, and motivation, which I'm largely lacking. I keep failing my bar prep essays, and now I'm wondering, why am I sitting for the hardest bar exam in the country if I can't even find a job here?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:04 pm

I have a job offer for $13 an hour at a solo practice, but no parking pass (so I will either have to pay $10 to park per day or take a bus to work). I expect that I would learn a lot at this position.

I also have a strong potential for a job with an nonprofit organization I volunteered at for almost a year. This job would pay around 45k a year. While I expect that I have an 80% chance of a job there, but decision making takes forever with them.

I do not want to anger either either party by bailing after less than 4 months since I am in a fairly small legal community. Should I just hold out for the nonprofit job or bird-in-the-hand?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Ludo! » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:05 pm

I have to try really hard to avoid reading ontopic threads because I get literally sick reading them and thinking about how shitty everything is. I try to just stick to the vale and the lounge. I wish they'd move that fucking bar study thread out of the lounge though. I hate being reminded that I'm tudying for a test that will let me practice law when its starting to look like that's something I won't ever do

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have a job offer for $13 an hour at a solo practice, but no parking pass (so I will either have to pay $10 to park per day or take a bus to work). I expect that I would learn a lot at this position.

I also have a strong potential for a job with an nonprofit organization I volunteered at for almost a year. This job would pay around 45k a year. While I expect that I have an 80% chance of a job there, but decision making takes forever with them.

I do not want to anger either either party by bailing after less than 4 months since I am in a fairly small legal community. Should I just hold out for the nonprofit job or bird-in-the-hand?

Take the job and leave if you get the PI job

Give appropriate notice

As an hourly employee I don't think you owe the other dude much

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:24 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:I have to try really hard to avoid reading ontopic threads because I get literally sick reading them and thinking about how shitty everything is. I try to just stick to the vale and the lounge. I wish they'd move that fucking bar study thread out of the lounge though. I hate being reminded that I'm tudying for a test that will let me practice law when its starting to look like that's something I won't ever do

Yeah they need to make a grads forum or some shit

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:35 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a job offer for $13 an hour at a solo practice, but no parking pass (so I will either have to pay $10 to park per day or take a bus to work). I expect that I would learn a lot at this position.

I also have a strong potential for a job with an nonprofit organization I volunteered at for almost a year. This job would pay around 45k a year. While I expect that I have an 80% chance of a job there, but decision making takes forever with them.

I do not want to anger either either party by bailing after less than 4 months since I am in a fairly small legal community. Should I just hold out for the nonprofit job or bird-in-the-hand?

Take the job and leave if you get the PI job

Give appropriate notice

As an hourly employee I don't think you owe the other dude much



That's what I'm doin too bro...at least I'm getting $15 though! Hopefully we can both find something more permanent/higher paying sooner rather than later...especially before Nov. when I have to start paying loans back!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
That's what I'm doin too bro...at least I'm getting $15 though! Hopefully we can both find something more permanent/higher paying sooner rather than later...especially before Nov. when I have to start paying loans back!


$13/hour guy here. It makes me feel sick because I made $8 and change in highschool working as a tutor. In undergrad I worked for a professor grading exams for $17/hour. I almost feel like I'd rather be mowing lawns than this BS.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:36 pm

I'm not sure if this should get it's own thread, but my experience is definitely topical in the Vale.

wrt a no-offer, I was no-offered my 2L summer from a midlaw firm and ended up with a firm position. I was expecting the no-offer to be a serious black mark on my record. I did not find this to be the case - in fact, the firm I received an offer from did not even ask about my 2L summer

My experience went against the conventional TLS wisdom, but I think it makes sense. An attorney who is hiring lawyers should be up-to-date on the dismal state of current legal hiring. Most attorneys I spoke to during my job search expressed sympathy for my situation because they understood that it's not like it used to be. Try to find things about your summer experience that were positive or helped you understand what you actually want to practice. Discuss those aspects if asked about a no-offer. No one I spoke w/ over the course of my job search ever wanted to know a detailed explanation for why I thought I was no-offered. At this point, outside of the Vault firms, employers understand that a no-offer often reflects a firm's financial situation rather than your abilities as a summer associate.

For those who are expecting or know that you will be no-offered, I think you are in a better situation for having law firm experience than working for a judge or in the government. This is assuming you will be seeking employment as a 3L with a firm. I wanted to give a personal point of view that diverged from what I had expected and was actually an aspect of the 3L job search that was refreshing and not terrible.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm not sure if this should get it's own thread, but my experience is definitely topical in the Vale.

wrt a no-offer, I was no-offered my 2L summer from a midlaw firm and ended up with a firm position. I was expecting the no-offer to be a serious black mark on my record. I did not find this to be the case - in fact, the firm I received an offer from did not even ask about my 2L summer

My experience went against the conventional TLS wisdom, but I think it makes sense. An attorney who is hiring lawyers should be up-to-date on the dismal state of current legal hiring. Most attorneys I spoke to during my job search expressed sympathy for my situation because they understood that it's not like it used to be. Try to find things about your summer experience that were positive or helped you understand what you actually want to practice. Discuss those aspects if asked about a no-offer. No one I spoke w/ over the course of my job search ever wanted to know a detailed explanation for why I thought I was no-offered. At this point, outside of the Vault firms, employers understand that a no-offer often reflects a firm's financial situation rather than your abilities as a summer associate.

For those who are expecting or know that you will be no-offered, I think you are in a better situation for having law firm experience than working for a judge or in the government. This is assuming you will be seeking employment as a 3L with a firm. I wanted to give a personal point of view that diverged from what I had expected and was actually an aspect of the 3L job search that was refreshing and not terrible.

I was also no offered not from big name Vault firm and this is pretty similar to my experience. Firm experience was a plus, and I think I only had to talk about my no offer once. It did hurt me at one firm when it came down to the final 2 people - me vs. one other guy - but the firm I got an offer at didn't even ask. I had an offer at the PD as well and they didn't ask.

I don't think it hurt me at the firm due to similar reasons as above. I was applying back home and worked in a different market. No one in my home market knew about those other firms; no idea whether they usually give out 100% offers or what their deal was. It was better to have the firm experience in my situation. As for the PD, I had some relevant govt. experience on my resume and just hit that really hard and I guess they assumed I just didn't want to work at a firm any more.

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Postby Myself » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:54 am

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Postby Myself » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:59 am

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:32 am

Question bros.

I'm going to send a cold application to a new-ish local office of an out-of-state firm because I read in the local legal rag how they are growing like gangbusters. On the firm's website, there's no recruiting contact for the local office. Should I e-mail the out-of-state recruiter or be really ballsy and e-mail the managing partner of the local office?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Borhas » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:35 am

TTH wrote:Question bros.

I'm going to send a cold application to a new-ish local office of an out-of-state firm because I read in the local legal rag how they are growing like gangbusters. On the firm's website, there's no recruiting contact for the local office. Should I e-mail the out-of-state recruiter or be really ballsy and e-mail the managing partner of the local office?


Go big or go home

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Geist13 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:45 am

Borhas wrote:
TTH wrote:Question bros.

I'm going to send a cold application to a new-ish local office of an out-of-state firm because I read in the local legal rag how they are growing like gangbusters. On the firm's website, there's no recruiting contact for the local office. Should I e-mail the out-of-state recruiter or be really ballsy and e-mail the managing partner of the local office?


Go big or go home


agreed.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:56 am

Yep - partner

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lolwat » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:48 am

TTH wrote:Question bros.

I'm going to send a cold application to a new-ish local office of an out-of-state firm because I read in the local legal rag how they are growing like gangbusters. On the firm's website, there's no recruiting contact for the local office. Should I e-mail the out-of-state recruiter or be really ballsy and e-mail the managing partner of the local office?


I have had luck emailing hiring partners, managing partners, and named partners (smaller firms with no recruiting/HR contact) directly. You probably do need to make sure they've at least seen your application though so I would follow up with a phone call or something after some time if you haven't heard.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby YankeesFan » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:15 pm

When is the best time to start mass mailing small and mid sized firms? Should I wait until Fall or can i start in early August?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:24 pm

YankeesFan wrote:When is the best time to start mass mailing small and mid sized firms? Should I wait until Fall or can i start in early August?

I wouldn't. A lot of that stuff isn't gonna hire that far before graduation. Although if they have a recruiting coordinator, I'd definitely call or email to see if they are hiring and if so, what for, or when.

It's probably a better idea to try to do some networking type activities in areas you are interested than to send out a bunch of cold mailers to firms that don't really hire that often and when they do, tend to try to go with someone they know first.

May be a decent idea to mail some larger firms who just need some intelligent bodies, but I wouldn't expect too much (read: anything) from that.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby wormhole » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:34 pm

Kind of off-topic, but I recognize a lot of the names in this thread back during my LSAT-studying days. I'm a rising 3L, and it scares me that many of you who did well on the LSATs, from what I recall, are having such tough times now. (I'm having a tough time as well and expect to well after graduation. I did mediocre on the LSATs, and my LS grades reflected that score.) What happened between the time of taking the LSATs to now? Is it, at the end of the day, a truly impossible market?

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