The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Congrats and thank you for much-needed encouragement. Mind saying what market? Would be interested to know if I still have hope in any big market...


A fairly large market. Not DC or NY, but next tier. Not a big law opportunity, but in private practice with a lot of flexibility in practice area and good (again not big law) compensation and benefits.

Keep networking. People may be unaware of needs and may think of you later.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:37 pm

I have to get this out there, but -screams into cyberspace-. The Vale of Tears is true to its name. I feel like I've spent the majority of this year in tears. I have been receiving interviews, but it is rejection after rejection. Obviously, my interviewing skills are terrible, and I practice and practice, yet nothing seems to help. Overall, this entire process has broken my confidence. It makes you look into the mirror and ask "Am I just not a likable person?"

Received another rejection today, so just sad and needed to vent. But like Dory says, Just Keep Swimming...

Sigh.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:13 pm

2019 grad. Secured a job at a biglaw (staff attorney position) in May, contingent upon passing the bar, recently passed. Wanted to share my experience; hopefully not repeating previous posts.

1. Networking - Didn't help me get an interview at all (though many said they would pass along my resume), but it was really helpful to learn about different practices and to practice asking attorneys not-so-awkward questions. At one interview my interviewer actually gave me a PE fund 101 and shared lots of great insights of the industry, which was incredibly fun and helpful; I used information obtained from this interview right away at a later one (and got that job).

2. Mock interviews - This helped boost my confidence. In my entire 3L year I only got three interviews, and that really damaged my self-esteem. I did mock interviews with a few practicing attorneys, an OCS counselor, and a law school professor who was previously a biglaw partner. All of them made me feel good, and also gave very different and helpful advice.

3. Reconsider your "filters" - If I were to do 3L job hunting again, I would spend less time reaching out to firms out of state (I'm in CA but applied for a lot of firms in NYC) or applying for positions less relevant to my prior internship experiences (mostly corporate). I did mass mailing, and the only three interviews I got were positions with corporate groups at CA firms. Earlier in my 3L year a friend told me to stop being "picky," and that I should try any market/firm of any size/position at any practice group. I agree that I shouldn't be picky, but when you target positions that really suit you, the firm is a lot more likely to feel the same about you. One thing I did become less picky about is the title. So I'm a second-class citizen, paid a lot less, but it actually worked well for me. You get to learn from the best, interact with high-profile clients, and the hours are a lot better. Why not.

If you feel like job hunting isn't getting you anywhere, talk to someone, adjust your approach, don't just repeat what you've been doing.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck!!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:41 pm

Getting a job is not the hard part, keeping it is. Firms are ruthless with associates and there are always fresh new graduates mass-mailing and itching to take your place.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby objctnyrhnr » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Getting a job is not the hard part, keeping it is. Firms are ruthless with associates and there are always fresh new graduates mass-mailing and itching to take your place.


Eh pretty sure getting it is harder To get a gig from unemployment and, from my experience in biglaw and anecdotally, I wouldn’t say firms are anything near “ruthless.” There are definitely times where solid associates are let go as a firm implodes or collapses or downsizes and that sucks. However, aside from those few instances, it’s really like any job: you need to do decently at it to keep it. But again, that’s pretty standard stuff at most non govt employers (and, I would like to think, a number of govt employers as well).

But all things considered, landing a legitimate gig as an unemployed person is much harder than not getting fired at a gig one already has.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:I have to get this out there, but -screams into cyberspace-. The Vale of Tears is true to its name. I feel like I've spent the majority of this year in tears. I have been receiving interviews, but it is rejection after rejection. Obviously, my interviewing skills are terrible, and I practice and practice, yet nothing seems to help. Overall, this entire process has broken my confidence. It makes you look into the mirror and ask "Am I just not a likable person?"

Received another rejection today, so just sad and needed to vent. But like Dory says, Just Keep Swimming...

Sigh.


This really spoke to me. It's just the fear that the end of law school, your three years amounted to no offers and that your experience hasn't been good enough to get you a job. I also have a partner that I want to be able to live with and support and it's been heart-wrenching not having anything secured while we're both planning our futures. I feel like any job would be fine now. I also took a huge confidence hit - even applying to jobs gives me a lot of stress knowing my experience doesn't feel like it's enough even though I've tried to do as much as I could in law school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:I have to get this out there, but -screams into cyberspace-. The Vale of Tears is true to its name. I feel like I've spent the majority of this year in tears. I have been receiving interviews, but it is rejection after rejection. Obviously, my interviewing skills are terrible, and I practice and practice, yet nothing seems to help. Overall, this entire process has broken my confidence. It makes you look into the mirror and ask "Am I just not a likable person?"

Received another rejection today, so just sad and needed to vent. But like Dory says, Just Keep Swimming...

Sigh.


My job search was short, but soul crushing.

Sometimes I think too much interview practice may not be as helpful as people think. When I graduated from UG, I had a tough time finding a job. I'd get interviews, but I'd be so nervous and I'd just say whatever I thought someone wanted to hear and I'd interview with all sorts of over the top fake enthusiasm.

A friend of mine told me that I was going about interviewing all wrong. She said it should be more of a conversation than anything else and that my personality should come through. Not the desperate, super saccharine version of myself I was putting out there.

This advice changed my mindset and it's generally worked very well. There were times when I was rejected after an interview, but in retrospect those likely weren't going to be a good fit anyways.

This goes back to interview practice. Maybe it works for some people, maybe a lot of people, but I can't think it's easy for who you are to shine through if you're giving canned responses that youve practiced a million times.

Maybe it's cliche, but at the end of the day, you're sort of interviewing a potential employer too. You both should want to make sure you're the best fit for the job. I realize that when you're looking, it's any port in a storm, but you don't want to end up in a miserable work environment or any unhappier than you have to be.

I think approaching interviews with the idea that it is, in some ways a two way street and that it can be conversational and not as reliant on canned, nervous answers can maybe help you find success.

You're obviously bright and talented if you're landing interviews, so you just need to bring this baby in for a smooth landing.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:36 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:Maybe it's cliche, but at the end of the day, you're sort of interviewing a potential employer too. You both should want to make sure you're the best fit for the job. I realize that when you're looking, it's any port in a storm, but you don't want to end up in a miserable work environment or any unhappier than you have to be.

I think approaching interviews with the idea that it is, in some ways a two way street and that it can be conversational and not as reliant on canned, nervous answers can maybe help you find success.

You're obviously bright and talented if you're landing interviews, so you just need to bring this baby in for a smooth landing.

As a fellow veteran of a soul-crushing job hunt in the past, I 100% cosign the above. I'd add that having the "it's a two way street" mindset also helped - at least in my case - by calming me down. Think of you and the employer as having a common goal - you both want to determine whether the job and you would be a good match. You are being evaluated, yes, but you are also there to evaluate the employer. I found that this mindset helped me greatly, as opposed to my initial mindset where I was desperately trying to make employers like me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Halp » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:15 pm

QContinuum wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:Maybe it's cliche, but at the end of the day, you're sort of interviewing a potential employer too. You both should want to make sure you're the best fit for the job. I realize that when you're looking, it's any port in a storm, but you don't want to end up in a miserable work environment or any unhappier than you have to be.

I think approaching interviews with the idea that it is, in some ways a two way street and that it can be conversational and not as reliant on canned, nervous answers can maybe help you find success.

You're obviously bright and talented if you're landing interviews, so you just need to bring this baby in for a smooth landing.

As a fellow veteran of a soul-crushing job hunt in the past, I 100% cosign the above. I'd add that having the "it's a two way street" mindset also helped - at least in my case - by calming me down. Think of you and the employer as having a common goal - you both want to determine whether the job and you would be a good match. You are being evaluated, yes, but you are also there to evaluate the employer. I found that this mindset helped me greatly, as opposed to my initial mindset where I was desperately trying to make employers like me.


+1 I’ve found a little bit of conscious self-deception vastly improves my performance in interviews - personally, if I tell myself often enough that I don’t really care about the job and I’m on a fact finding mission, my reptile brain starts to believe me and settles down a bunch (even though I am intellectually aware that I am full of it :lol:).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have to get this out there, but -screams into cyberspace-. The Vale of Tears is true to its name. I feel like I've spent the majority of this year in tears. I have been receiving interviews, but it is rejection after rejection. Obviously, my interviewing skills are terrible, and I practice and practice, yet nothing seems to help. Overall, this entire process has broken my confidence. It makes you look into the mirror and ask "Am I just not a likable person?"

Received another rejection today, so just sad and needed to vent. But like Dory says, Just Keep Swimming...

Sigh.


OP here. On a positive note! Finally got a job! Thank you for all the advice and emotional support! The past two years have been the worse. Striking out at OCI and then striking out with Clerkship and then striking out with mass mailing firms in multiple legal markets, it really gets depressing and the entire process has been painfully humbling. I suspect I have applied for way over 200 jobs practically all over the United States. But it is true to the saying, "It only takes one!" For those curious, got a legal position in the government. Wishing everyone luck!

To those who are still looking -

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have to get this out there, but -screams into cyberspace-. The Vale of Tears is true to its name. I feel like I've spent the majority of this year in tears. I have been receiving interviews, but it is rejection after rejection. Obviously, my interviewing skills are terrible, and I practice and practice, yet nothing seems to help. Overall, this entire process has broken my confidence. It makes you look into the mirror and ask "Am I just not a likable person?"

Received another rejection today, so just sad and needed to vent. But like Dory says, Just Keep Swimming...

Sigh.


OP here. On a positive note! Finally got a job! Thank you for all the advice and emotional support! The past two years have been the worse. Striking out at OCI and then striking out with Clerkship and then striking out with mass mailing firms in multiple legal markets, it really gets depressing and the entire process has been painfully humbling. I suspect I have applied for way over 200 jobs practically all over the United States. But it is true to the saying, "It only takes one!" For those curious, got a legal position in the government. Wishing everyone luck!

To those who are still looking -

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill


Congratulations!!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby FND » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:12 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:A friend of mine told me that I was going about interviewing all wrong. She said it should be more of a conversation than anything else and that my personality should come through. Not the desperate, super saccharine version of myself I was putting out there.

As someone who sat on both sides of the interview table, I couldn't agree more. If you're faking it, or only saying what you think the interviewer wants to hear, the interviewer will realize this.
Be yourself, just be the best version of yourself. Don't make clever points just to score points.

While there is the occasional interview that tests hard skills, it's far more likely that if they're testing skills they're testing your soft skills, which can't really be faked.

More importantly, and more likely, quite often the interviewerer is looking to see if you're the kind of person they want as a colleague or team member, someone they'd want to spend several hours per day, every day, with.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:00 pm

A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby acr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?


I think you should seek professional mental health services.

I understand that the realities and challenges of the job search can be very difficult to handle, as I've been there before, but there's a difference between feeling down about your job prospects and full-on depressed. The bolded statements above indicate, to me, a harmful tendency to automatically view anything and everything negatively (e.g. the firm looking at your Linkedin, CSO not being willing/able to help you, etc). The statement about narcotics is particularly concerning.

So, I would place an emphasis on taking care of your mental health while concurrently looking for jobs. A healthier mindset and more optimistic outlook might just be the puzzle piece that's been missing for you.

Also, I obviously don't know about your living situation, student loans, etc., but why would you be homeless and "live in a box" after your clerkship? I'm assuming that your clerkship salaries pays the rent and bills now, but can't you just get a temporary job (doc review, Uber, etc.) to stay afloat until you land something? Law students'/lawyers' unwillingness to do "real" jobs that a large portion of the population works to make ends meet never ceases to amaze me.

Having said all that, I would prioritize your mental health above all else during this process. Your situation is not nearly as dire or dramatic as your language makes it seem, and I know firsthand that the negative mindset that you have can be what's preventing you from making the kind of connections that can lead to success.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby nixy » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mjb447 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:05 am

nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?

Agreed, both (1) with the possibility that you’re early for many employers if you’re on anything close to the normal schedule (or if the firms think you’re on that schedule) and (2) you’re not yet in as much trouble as you think. I had a COA clerkship ending in mid-August and I didn’t get my next job until late June. There’s still plenty of time.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:02 pm

acr wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?


I think you should seek professional mental health services.

I understand that the realities and challenges of the job search can be very difficult to handle, as I've been there before, but there's a difference between feeling down about your job prospects and full-on depressed. The bolded statements above indicate, to me, a harmful tendency to automatically view anything and everything negatively (e.g. the firm looking at your Linkedin, CSO not being willing/able to help you, etc). The statement about narcotics is particularly concerning.

So, I would place an emphasis on taking care of your mental health while concurrently looking for jobs. A healthier mindset and more optimistic outlook might just be the puzzle piece that's been missing for you.

Also, I obviously don't know about your living situation, student loans, etc., but why would you be homeless and "live in a box" after your clerkship? I'm assuming that your clerkship salaries pays the rent and bills now, but can't you just get a temporary job (doc review, Uber, etc.) to stay afloat until you land something? Law students'/lawyers' unwillingness to do "real" jobs that a large portion of the population works to make ends meet never ceases to amaze me.

Having said all that, I would prioritize your mental health above all else during this process. Your situation is not nearly as dire or dramatic as your language makes it seem, and I know firsthand that the negative mindset that you have can be what's preventing you from making the kind of connections that can lead to success.


Bold of you to assume I have the money or time to seek mental health services. That's not me being flippant, I'm not against it and have considered this extensively-- I don't accrue any kind of time off (and most providers are only available during work hours), I haven't met my insurance deductible for this year, and my salary BARELY covers my rent, student loans, and other bills like insurance. I am not able to accrue any real amount of savings, as much as I would like to, so when I stop getting paid, I will no longer be able to pay my rent.

It's also pretty mean of you to assume I wouldn't try to get a "real" job-- I was mostly hyperbolizing about the specter of homelessness, but unemployment is a real concern. I haven't even seen opportunities for document review or contract positions where I currently live. I've worked as a legal secretary, but I don't know that any firm would hire me now since I have a JD (I've been turned down with "you'll leave as soon as a firm hires you as a lawyer," which is true). I can't drive Uber or similar because I am an extremely nervous driver, and can barely manage to get around when it's just me in the car (I take public transit as often as possible). I have worked fast food and retail before, but I can't pay my bills on that salary-- trust me, I have considered it. The real alternative to homelessness is selling most everything I own and moving back 1800 miles away to live with my parents, in a state where I'm not bar eligible. That's the last resort, as moving will ALSO be pretty expensive.

I don't know that my outlook is the issue when all these firms have seen is my resume. I'd buy it if I were interviewing and getting turned down, but that isn't the case. I appreciate the concern for my mental health, but as I said, I don't have the time or money to handle that right now. I wish I did. What I need is a job.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:09 pm

nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?


Yes, my clerkship does end before August. I feel as though I've run out of firms to apply to already, and I'm not sure how to find more. I'm not getting responses that tell me to check back in a few months, I'm getting flat no's. As an aside, there seems to be no consensus on when one should start applying, because I was told to start applying in January by multiple sources.

I have talked to the judge, but they have not had any suggestions that I already wasn't pursuing. I have had multiple people review my cover letter and resume, and have adjusted them both more than once. I am applying both in the area of the clerkship and in other areas where I'd be interested in living (and where I'm bar eligible).

It's hard not to view this situation in light of my previous employment difficulties. I expected SOME difference in how my applications would be received, but thus far, nothing has changed. I don't see how my situation is objectively any different than it was.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:20 pm

mjb447 wrote:
nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?

Agreed, both (1) with the possibility that you’re early for many employers if you’re on anything close to the normal schedule (or if the firms think you’re on that schedule) and (2) you’re not yet in as much trouble as you think. I had a COA clerkship ending in mid-August and I didn’t get my next job until late June. There’s still plenty of time.


I don't think I'm on the normal schedule-- my clerkship ends in about three months. My resume used to reflect when my term ended, but I was told by someone I had reviewing it to take that out. Now I'm thinking that was a stupid idea.

It's very hard to believe that I'm not in trouble yet, just because the choice for me is between "find a job that allows me to keep paying my bills, whether in this area or elsewhere" and "move back in with mom and dad, who can't really afford to have me there." I have to start making those plans if it looks like employment is not on the horizon. I don't want to be a burden on my parents again, and I'm overall just really scared.

I have so many questions and no one to ask at this point. Do I bother applying to associate jobs that want two years of experience? How, outside of linkedin, the BYU job board postings, Googling, and asking my CSO, do I find firms or jobs to apply to? How long do I wait until I send a resume again to a firm that turned me down? Do they ACTUALLY keep your materials on file? As an aside, I've also looked into clerking again, but no bites. It's incredibly difficult for me to have any kind of hope when there's been absolutely no interest from approximately 70+ applications at this point (where some of those have been punching above my weight class, but not anywhere near all of them).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby historyminor » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?

Agreed, both (1) with the possibility that you’re early for many employers if you’re on anything close to the normal schedule (or if the firms think you’re on that schedule) and (2) you’re not yet in as much trouble as you think. I had a COA clerkship ending in mid-August and I didn’t get my next job until late June. There’s still plenty of time.


I don't think I'm on the normal schedule-- my clerkship ends in about three months. My resume used to reflect when my term ended, but I was told by someone I had reviewing it to take that out. Now I'm thinking that was a stupid idea.

It's very hard to believe that I'm not in trouble yet, just because the choice for me is between "find a job that allows me to keep paying my bills, whether in this area or elsewhere" and "move back in with mom and dad, who can't really afford to have me there." I have to start making those plans if it looks like employment is not on the horizon. I don't want to be a burden on my parents again, and I'm overall just really scared.

I have so many questions and no one to ask at this point. Do I bother applying to associate jobs that want two years of experience? How, outside of linkedin, the BYU job board postings, Googling, and asking my CSO, do I find firms or jobs to apply to? How long do I wait until I send a resume again to a firm that turned me down? Do they ACTUALLY keep your materials on file? As an aside, I've also looked into clerking again, but no bites. It's incredibly difficult for me to have any kind of hope when there's been absolutely no interest from approximately 70+ applications at this point (where some of those have been punching above my weight class, but not anywhere near all of them).


Have you tried applying to any of the Department of Homeland Security agency job openings posted on usajobs? I'd think your clerkship could be a real selling point there...
Last edited by QContinuum on Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Outed for anon abuse.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 2013 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?

Agreed, both (1) with the possibility that you’re early for many employers if you’re on anything close to the normal schedule (or if the firms think you’re on that schedule) and (2) you’re not yet in as much trouble as you think. I had a COA clerkship ending in mid-August and I didn’t get my next job until late June. There’s still plenty of time.


I don't think I'm on the normal schedule-- my clerkship ends in about three months. My resume used to reflect when my term ended, but I was told by someone I had reviewing it to take that out. Now I'm thinking that was a stupid idea.

It's very hard to believe that I'm not in trouble yet, just because the choice for me is between "find a job that allows me to keep paying my bills, whether in this area or elsewhere" and "move back in with mom and dad, who can't really afford to have me there." I have to start making those plans if it looks like employment is not on the horizon. I don't want to be a burden on my parents again, and I'm overall just really scared.

I have so many questions and no one to ask at this point. Do I bother applying to associate jobs that want two years of experience? How, outside of linkedin, the BYU job board postings, Googling, and asking my CSO, do I find firms or jobs to apply to? How long do I wait until I send a resume again to a firm that turned me down? Do they ACTUALLY keep your materials on file? As an aside, I've also looked into clerking again, but no bites. It's incredibly difficult for me to have any kind of hope when there's been absolutely no interest from approximately 70+ applications at this point (where some of those have been punching above my weight class, but not anywhere near all of them).


OP, are you open to moving? Litigation hiring seems to be hot in DC right now and you can probably just transfer your UBE/MBE I to DC.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:32 pm

2013 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A little over a year ago, I wrote that I was out of the vale because I had acquired a clerkship. Well, that clerkship will be ending in a few months, and I feel like I'm careening back toward the vale once more. I've put out dozens of applications, and have heard back positively from only one (and that was just asking me to send a writing sample). No interviews, no interest, plenty of flat rejections-- there was one firm that actually looked at my LinkedIn before telling me they anticipated their needs would be filled, which I took as "we actually are hiring, you just didn't impress us." I've reached out to my law school, and got a vague promise that "if we see anything we'll let you know"-- not that I expected much better from them, as they were wholly unhelpful during law school.
I'm freaking the absolute hell out, I don't know who to ask for help or how to find more jobs I can apply to, and I really, really don't want to be homeless after this ends. I don't WANT to get stuck in a PI sweatshop the rest of my career, but if that's what I have to do to not live in a box on the street, I'll do it. Even those firms haven't gotten back to me.
I feel like I was sold a bill of goods as to the clerkship thing, and that this hiring experience will be EXACTLY the same as it was during 3L-- a whole hell of a lot of fear, followed by nothing but rejections, followed by a job offer that sucks but that I'll accept out of desperation. I am sucking down Tension Tamer tea like it's the water of life. If I knew where to acquire narcotics I'd be using them. What am I supposed to do now?

You keep applying. If your clerkship really does end in a few months (i.e. before August or September), it's a little off the standard schedule, but a lot of firms don't move on hiring clerks until February or March. It's not OCI hiring, they don't have a set number of people they know they're going to hire a year ahead of time, so hiring takes place on a much less predictable schedule as they decide that they have openings, and - as frustrating as it is - I know a number of clerks who didn't line up jobs till a month or so left in their clerkship.

And it's understandable, but it does sound like you're viewing your current situation in light of your previous struggles, and not objectively as it stands right now.

In any case, have you talked to your judge about whether they have any suggestions? Have you had people look at your cover letter and resume? Are you trying to stay local to your clerkship or are you trying to move somewhere else?

Agreed, both (1) with the possibility that you’re early for many employers if you’re on anything close to the normal schedule (or if the firms think you’re on that schedule) and (2) you’re not yet in as much trouble as you think. I had a COA clerkship ending in mid-August and I didn’t get my next job until late June. There’s still plenty of time.


I don't think I'm on the normal schedule-- my clerkship ends in about three months. My resume used to reflect when my term ended, but I was told by someone I had reviewing it to take that out. Now I'm thinking that was a stupid idea.

It's very hard to believe that I'm not in trouble yet, just because the choice for me is between "find a job that allows me to keep paying my bills, whether in this area or elsewhere" and "move back in with mom and dad, who can't really afford to have me there." I have to start making those plans if it looks like employment is not on the horizon. I don't want to be a burden on my parents again, and I'm overall just really scared.

I have so many questions and no one to ask at this point. Do I bother applying to associate jobs that want two years of experience? How, outside of linkedin, the BYU job board postings, Googling, and asking my CSO, do I find firms or jobs to apply to? How long do I wait until I send a resume again to a firm that turned me down? Do they ACTUALLY keep your materials on file? As an aside, I've also looked into clerking again, but no bites. It's incredibly difficult for me to have any kind of hope when there's been absolutely no interest from approximately 70+ applications at this point (where some of those have been punching above my weight class, but not anywhere near all of them).


OP, are you open to moving? Litigation hiring seems to be hot in DC right now and you can probably just transfer your UBE/MBE I to DC.


I am open to moving-- I'd prefer somewhere in the South as I'm already sick of snow, but DC isn't off the table. How can I find out which firms are hiring? I've had no bites from cold emails, but is that just how things work?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:19 pm

I've been to about 20 interviews and got a constant stream of rejections. It's just been a fountain of tears as a 3L. :shock: :oops:

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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