The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Genius]

I got out of the vale 2 weeks ago when I accepted an offer. In my first week, I got 3 interview calls, 2 from biglaw and 1 midsize local. This brings my yield to about 13 bites from about 100 MMs.

Accidental anon.

One of the biglaw calls came from a < v20 firm. I think I applied like back in July and they either just got to my file or something opened up and one of the partners remembered my resume. More likely the former as im really not a unique snowflake.

[Anonymous User]

What are you recommendations?

[Anonymous User]

I got out of the vale 2 weeks ago when I accepted an offer. In my first week, I got 3 interview calls, 2 from biglaw and 1 midsize local. This brings my yield to about 13 bites from about 100 MMs.

Accidental anon.

One of the biglaw calls came from a < v20 firm. I think I applied like back in July and they either just got to my file or something opened up and one of the partners remembered my resume. More likely the former as im really not a unique snowflake.

Can you give us your stats? 2L SA? School range? Class rank?

edit: just found

[iliketurtles123]

I got out of the vale 2 weeks ago when I accepted an offer. In my first week, I got 3 interview calls, 2 from biglaw and 1 midsize local. This brings my yield to about 13 bites from about 100 MMs.

Accidental anon.

One of the biglaw calls came from a < v20 firm. I think I applied like back in July and they either just got to my file or something opened up and one of the partners remembered my resume. More likely the former as im really not a unique snowflake.

I saw your previous post you said you have 1 year WE. I think that's what separates you from most of us (13 bites out of 100 MM is insanely good). I went to a T6, had a pretty good 2L summer experience, feel like my cover letter is strong, and got 0 bites out of 100+ applications and mailings.

Although you said the 1 year WE didn't help, I do think it probably got your foot in the door.
This is consistent with what I've heard from other lawyers. From what I hear, after you work 1 year, even though it's only a year, the job search will be much easier than a recent grad with no experience (especially since you have also passed the bar). It's still an uphill battle but it won't be as hopeless as we all feel right now. I felt like I should write this for any recent grads feeling discouraged right now.

But in any case, congrats on getting out of the vale!

[Genius]

I got out of the vale 2 weeks ago when I accepted an offer. In my first week, I got 3 interview calls, 2 from biglaw and 1 midsize local. This brings my yield to about 13 bites from about 100 MMs.

Accidental anon.

One of the biglaw calls came from a < v20 firm. I think I applied like back in July and they either just got to my file or something opened up and one of the partners remembered my resume. More likely the former as im really not a unique snowflake.

I saw your previous post you said you have 1 year WE. I think that's what separates you from most of us (13 bites out of 100 MM is insanely good). I went to a T6, had a pretty good 2L summer experience, feel like my cover letter is strong, and got 0 bites out of 100+ applications and mailings.

Although you said the 1 year WE didn't help, I do think it probably got your foot in the door.
This is consistent with what I've heard from other lawyers. From what I hear, after you work 1 year, even though it's only a year, the job search will be much easier than a recent grad with no experience (especially since you have also passed the bar). It's still an uphill battle but it won't be as hopeless as we all feel right now. I felt like I should write this for any recent grads feeling discouraged right now.

But in any case, congrats on getting out of the vale!

You might be right to an extent. Many of the firms I interviewed w did not know I had 1 yr of WE. They all thought I was a recent grad.

I think median at T6 w no WE will win out over over 1 yr of exp w T30 stat. Have faith and keep improving your cover and resume. That is where I got my bites.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Was your graduation date not on your resume?

[Genius]

Was your graduation date not on your resume?

It was, including my undergrad year.



For those still in the vale:

so I got an interview with V15-V18 firm like a day or two ago. I think I applied back in late June when I first started MMing indiscriminately down the V100 list. I don't even see this entry in my spreadsheet or my mailbox trashbin. So there you go. Some firms just hash through old resumes and call people. I have a feeling they totally got me mixed up with someone and called the wrong person. SO DONT LOSE HOPE!!!

[BellaSera1014]

I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed.

I have worked full time (along with 2+ other jobs) during my undergrad & law school years (graduating May 2017). I intend to work on my LL.M right after I finish my J.D. Should I bring this up during my interviews? While it is clear via my resume and cover letter that I have been juggling school & work for the last 7 years, I have also been told that employees might see me as not dedicated to the job I am applying for...

I should also mention that I am initially only trying to acquire a job with the federal government (so 80 hour work weeks do not interfere with 6pm classes).

[A. Nony Mouse]

I wouldn't mention it unless it's something very likely to make you more attractive to an employer. If you're applying for a cybersecurity job and want to get a cybersecurity LLM (I am making this up, not sure if one exists), and, like, 75% of the people who work there have one so the employer clearly values it, or the hiring official has one, or some other really direct evidence that such a a degree is valued, I could see bringing it up. I think this is going to be fairly uncommon, though, and I would probably not raise it in the cover letter and only bring it up in the interview if the conversation made it seem really pertinent. Otherwise I'd worry that it will make it look like you're going to be distracted from work/taking on too much/going to flee for another field of law as soon as you can.

[BellaSera1014]

I wouldn't mention it unless it's something very likely to make you more attractive to an employer. If you're applying for a cybersecurity job and want to get a cybersecurity LLM (I am making this up, not sure if one exists), and, like, 75% of the people who work there have one so the employer clearly values it, or the hiring official has one, or some other really direct evidence that such a a degree is valued, I could see bringing it up. I think this is going to be fairly uncommon, though, and I would probably not raise it in the cover letter and only bring it up in the interview if the conversation made it seem really pertinent. Otherwise I'd worry that it will make it look like you're going to be distracted from work/taking on too much/going to flee for another field of law as soon as you can.

Mind reader. National Security LL.M. but I actually want to focus on illicit finance & cyber. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Currently panicking. I networked my way into an interview with a firm about a month ago. I thought the interview went really well, but afterward they posted the job on the careers section of their site. As far as I could tell, it wasn't posted to linkedin/glassdoor/etc. so I don't know how serious they were about finding other candidates (and they seem to use those sites-- all their openings are posted there except the one I interviewed for). I noticed earlier this week that the posting on the site was taken down. I don't know what that means for me, but if I still haven't heard from them I can't imagine its good. I'm frustrated they have taken so long as I have been putting signing a lease on hold. My experience also makes me a uniquely good fit for them, so I really don't know what their reservations could be.

I guess I don't know what my point is in posting other than to vent. I saw another apartment this morning that I am in love with, but I would like to hear from the firm before I commit.

[Easy-E]

If you're looking for a job in NJ (Union County), PM me. I'll give more details but small firm, if you have a massive student loan payment, this isn't gonna cut it unfortunately (at least not at first). Figured I would post though.

[Anonymous User]

A 3L at tier 2 school who finally got an interview at a mid law, defense litigation firm with a solid rep. The interview should be 20-30 minutes.

I'm desperate to do well in this interview so I can get the job, since I'm a 3L with mediocre grades and no other interviews or offers lined up.

I'm clueless about how to prepare for these sorts of interviews (please don't make fun of me, I don't have time for it... just give me advice so I can get this job). I don't know what to do. How do I go about preparing myself for an interview like this?

The expertise the firm has (what the firm is known for) is an area that I don't have a background in. How do I spin it so I can sound like a viable, strong candidate?

Please help.

[bulaw2017student]

What is your advice to 3L students looking for jobs?

[Sprout]

A 3L at tier 2 school who finally got an interview at a mid law, defense litigation firm with a solid rep. The interview should be 20-30 minutes.

I'm desperate to do well in this interview so I can get the job, since I'm a 3L with mediocre grades and no other interviews or offers lined up.

I'm clueless about how to prepare for these sorts of interviews (please don't make fun of me, I don't have time for it... just give me advice so I can get this job). I don't know what to do. How do I go about preparing myself for an interview like this?

The expertise the firm has (what the firm is known for) is an area that I don't have a background in. How do I spin it so I can sound like a viable, strong candidate?

Please help.

Get info on the firm. Be prepared to answer "why this firm" and say something interesting. Also, if you know who you are interviewing with, get targeted questions for them based on a little research on what they are involved in, etc. Have several of these talking points and questions in your back pocket. There is nothing worse than "Do you have any Qs for me?"-interviewer "Ah, no not really."-you (/me last summer)

That being said, be relaxed to the extent you can, don't forget to smile and laugh (as much as isn't weird), and try to aim for a conversation. Lawyers love to talk about themselves. Ask them things. If there's a commonality, run with it. It'll help them remember you and also make you not look like a weirdo. Gl.

edit: the "expertise" of the firm isn't necessarily the area where they're hiring, so don't panic too much for lack of a background in a very specific field. If I were you, I would just say you'd love to learn about XYZ and are eager to be exposed to new things, etc etc, and that you're confident in your ability to think on your feet/be a fast learner/etc. Ime, most firms don't expect law students to know anything, but it is that "I don't know but I can find out" attitude they want to see.

[gerrod11]

I was wondering if others had recommendations on where recent grads can look for jobs. I go on gobiglaw.com, attorneyjobsusa.com, and check my school’s symplicity cite daily, but no luck. I graduated from Gtown this past May and have a very crappy GPA (3.22). Right now I am just at a lost as to where else I should be looking for jobs. Thanks in advance for the advice.

[MKC]

I was wondering if others had recommendations on where recent grads can look for jobs. I go on gobiglaw.com, attorneyjobsusa.com, and check my school’s symplicity cite daily, but no luck. I graduated from Gtown this past May and have a very crappy GPA (3.22). Right now I am just at a lost as to where else I should be looking for jobs. Thanks in advance for the advice.

This is waaaaaaaay too narrow. You need to be applying to any and all firms or positions you would remotely consider accepting an offer at. It doesn't matter if they are advertising a position or not. Start sending cover letters and resume everywhere.

Think of yourself as a Viagra email. Spam every inbox in town. Smaller employers may not even realize that your GPA sucks. Believe it or not, a lot of them don't know that grade inflation is a thing.

ETA: Just to be clear, one email per firm. Don't go spamming every partner at the firm or you'll get written off as annoying.

[EvelynS]

Hi! I had a job interview at the firm about 3 weeks ago. The partner who interviewed me mentioned that they would be making decisions within a few weeks. I haven't heard anything since the interview. Do you think I should email HR about the status of my application or don't even bother since it most likely means a rejection (they just don't care enough to send a rejection email)?

[Genius]

Hi! I had a job interview at the firm about 3 weeks ago. The partner who interviewed me mentioned that they would be making decisions within a few weeks. I haven't heard anything since the interview. Do you think I should email HR about the status of my application or don't even bother since it most likely means a rejection (they just don't care enough to send a rejection email)?

Someone said this before but no partner/firm forgot about the applicant they planned to hire. Just wait it out. You can send an email to the recruiter to ask if the position has already been filled, and if not that you are still interested. Not gonna increase your chances of an offer tho for sure but might get you an answer faster. Some firms dont even give a shit about letting anxious interviewees know about the ding.

[Anonymous User]

I was wondering if others had recommendations on where recent grads can look for jobs. I go on gobiglaw.com, attorneyjobsusa.com, and check my school’s symplicity cite daily, but no luck. I graduated from Gtown this past May and have a very crappy GPA (3.22). Right now I am just at a lost as to where else I should be looking for jobs. Thanks in advance for the advice.

This is waaaaaaaay too narrow. You need to be applying to any and all firms or positions you would remotely consider accepting an offer at. It doesn't matter if they are advertising a position or not. Start sending cover letters and resume everywhere.

Think of yourself as a Viagra email. Spam every inbox in town. Smaller employers may not even realize that your GPA sucks. Believe it or not, a lot of them don't know that grade inflation is a thing.

ETA: Just to be clear, one email per firm. Don't go spamming every partner at the firm or you'll get written off as annoying.

Not OP, but curious about your last line. Is it okay to send emails to the same firm but different offices? I've noticed sometimes they reply "we see you've expressed interest in multiple offices..." Is that also a big no-no?

[MKC]

I was wondering if others had recommendations on where recent grads can look for jobs. I go on gobiglaw.com, attorneyjobsusa.com, and check my school’s symplicity cite daily, but no luck. I graduated from Gtown this past May and have a very crappy GPA (3.22). Right now I am just at a lost as to where else I should be looking for jobs. Thanks in advance for the advice.

This is waaaaaaaay too narrow. You need to be applying to any and all firms or positions you would remotely consider accepting an offer at. It doesn't matter if they are advertising a position or not. Start sending cover letters and resume everywhere.

Think of yourself as a Viagra email. Spam every inbox in town. Smaller employers may not even realize that your GPA sucks. Believe it or not, a lot of them don't know that grade inflation is a thing.

ETA: Just to be clear, one email per firm. Don't go spamming every partner at the firm or you'll get written off as annoying.

Not OP, but curious about your last line. Is it okay to send emails to the same firm but different offices? I've noticed sometimes they reply "we see you've expressed interest in multiple offices..." Is that also a big no-no?

You should probably pick just one office. Anywhere outside of New York is going to want to know you want to live there, and that's going to be a tougher sell if they know you're applying in multiple locations.

[neveragain224]

I was wondering if others had recommendations on where recent grads can look for jobs. I go on gobiglaw.com, attorneyjobsusa.com, and check my school’s symplicity cite daily, but no luck. I graduated from Gtown this past May and have a very crappy GPA (3.22). Right now I am just at a lost as to where else I should be looking for jobs. Thanks in advance for the advice.

Hey there, fellow recent GULC grad who just finished the job search (this summer). PM me if you'd like to discuss job hunt strategy.

[Anonymous User]

I was wondering if others had recommendations on where recent grads can look for jobs. I go on gobiglaw.com, attorneyjobsusa.com, and check my school’s symplicity cite daily, but no luck. I graduated from Gtown this past May and have a very crappy GPA (3.22). Right now I am just at a lost as to where else I should be looking for jobs. Thanks in advance for the advice.

If you're not massmailing, you should be. In addition, use ziprecruiter and visit the sites of legal headhunters who operate in your area looking for firms seeking jr associate laterals. There are also a bunch of sites that will start spamming the shit out of you if you start using them (hireable, jobungo, careeralerter). They're annoying, but they do occasionally have something of interest.

Also look around on linkedin's job listings. Without you putting in what you're looking for, their algorithm is shit (suggested I might be interested in an open executive chef job), but with just a little info, the results are pretty good. I got some bites from jobs I found there.

Not OP, but curious about your last line. Is it okay to send emails to the same firm but different offices? I've noticed sometimes they reply "we see you've expressed interest in multiple offices..." Is that also a big no-no?

I think it depends on the firm. If it looks like the offices operate independently for recruiting (have separate recruiters or other hiring personnel), then maybe you can do this, but if they appear to be more cohesive, then maybe sending to multiple offices, but expressing interest in the firm itself and not a particular office and expressing your desire to work where the firm most needs you is the way to go.

Personally, I got my gig through mass-mail after striking out in 2L and 3L OCI (despite being just outside top 5% at a T20). I was only targeting one city my firm has an office in, but it's a small enough firm (< 100 attorneys) that I ended up mass-mailing to the managing partner in a different city after I couldn't decide who best to send to in my target city. That turned out to be a good decision because he knew who was looking for a new associate and I was called that afternoon, interviewed the next day, and got an offer a couple days later.

My point is, at midlaw firms, the partners, even in different cities, all know each other and know what the firm's needs are, so if you send letters to partners in 3 different cities all expressing a desire to work at that particular office, those guys might all forward your app to the same partner, and all of a sudden he's reading letters that indicate you want to work in Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, AND East Lansing, and he doesn't trust anything you have to say. Alternately, one may just send an all-partner email to say "got this app today and it looks pretty good," only to have another partner reply all to say "I got that same letter but he said he really wanted to work here, not there."


Addendum: As for where to mass-mail, as Mark says, anywhere you could possibly imagine working. To start building your list, start with your school's 2L OCI list (maybe they didn't get all their first-year associate slots filled the way they wanted). Look in martindale and other directories for firms in your target markets that (a) do the particular stuff you want to do or (2) have 15 or 25+ attorneys, as they likely have wide a range of stuff they do. Also look for business journal lists (e.g. http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/subs ... -2016.html ). The business journals typically charge for you to buy these, but you can often find them in your OCS, law library or at the b-school, especially if you're targeting cities in your school's region. It often appears in an annual publication by the local business journal (for one common publisher, it's the ________ Book of Lists -- insert name of city there).

[MKC]

Addendum: As for where to mass-mail, as Mark says, anywhere you could possibly imagine working. To start building your list, start with your school's 2L OCI list (maybe they didn't get all their first-year associate slots filled the way they wanted). Look in martindale and other directories for firms in your target markets that (a) do the particular stuff you want to do or (2) have 15 or 25+ attorneys, as they likely have wide a range of stuff they do. Also look for business journal lists (e.g. http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/subs ... -2016.html ). The business journals typically charge for you to buy these, but you can often find them in your OCS, law library or at the b-school, especially if you're targeting cities in your school's region. It often appears in an annual publication by the local business journal (for one common publisher, it's the ________ Book of Lists -- insert name of city there).

With regard to lists like this that aren't publicly available: If you can't locate them, ask your school's librarian. I have found that ours is a great resource. These people find obscure shit for a living, and know how to use all of those databases you've heard of but have no idea how to navigate.

[rinkrat19]

Just finished my app for unemployment. Thank christ for my fellowship year, which means (I THINK) that I qualify.

Now the trick is finding enough jobs to apply for per week to stay on UI.