The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

sd5289 · Post by **sd5289** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:25 pm

Dropping in to say one of my friends just got out of the vale earlier this morning! Call came in for her when she least expected it (and had given up on it), so GL to everyone in this thread!

Re. 2-page resume: I worked professionally for a number of years prior to attending law school (in the legal profession), and I had a 1-page resume while applying/interviewing last semester. It just meant that I dropped a bunch of shit and heavily formatted my resume to make sure it fit on one page (didn't sacrifice the "Interests" section either because one of my interests always seems to generate conversation wherever I go). I was able to include my professional life before law school, my summer jobs during law school, my clinic, and my RA positions on one page. You can probably do the same.

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:45 pm

Welcome to TLS

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:49 pm

I use a 2 pager for fellowships and the standard 1 pager for regular attorney positions. My sense is that public interest employers are looking for a longstanding, demonstrated commitment to public service, so for them a 2 pager makes sense to show your dedication to a cause/issue.

CaptainLeela · Post by **CaptainLeela** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:52 pm

Welcome to TLS

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:19 pm

I always used 2 pages because I'd had a career before law school, and I prefer a decent amount of white space on a resume to squeezing the same amount of text on one page. Ironically I would probably drop to 1 p now because now that I've been out for a few years, I'm more willing to condense law school stuff drastically - when I had no real legal experience it made more sense to include everything I did in law school, now it doesn't matter that much.

I get that 2 pps can be a bit like sending a thank you note after an interview - it gives you more rope to hang yourself. I'm sure there are 2 pagers that hurt a candidate. But it doesn't have to.

jess · Post by **jess** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:48 pm

shredderrrrrr · Post by **shredderrrrrr** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:23 pm

Jessuf wrote:I think if you have 2 pages worth of stuff, then 2 pages are fine. My resume is 1.5 pages, and I played with the margins and font size. I didn't include any pre-LS jobs. No interests section. Each job I've held is only given 3 lines, e.g.:

Law Clerk for the Honorable Muffin Dog, August 2014 - August 2015
U.S. Court of Appeals, Federal Circuit, Washington, DC
Conducted research, drafted legal memoranda, and managed calendar preparation

I just happened to be really busy in LS, and as someone who used to be in the Vale, I saw it as more helpful to include every legal job and internship than to axe some in the name of resume brevity. However, I don't recommend listing every possible task you ever did if you only did 2 internships if that puts you over one page.

I can look at your resume, Leela.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you do that filled up so much space if you were only using three lines total for each job and didn't put any pre-LS jobs or an interests section? Did you just have a lot of jobs? I mean, I have five LS jobs listed (with 4-5 lines each) and all of my UG and LS information (including honors, activities, publications, notable grades, etc.) and I'm still well within one page.

I only ask because I see a lot resumes where people are wasting space, say, by failing to utilize horizontal space. I tend to see it most when people want to bullet everything instead of putting stuff onto the same line.

jess · Post by **jess** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:11 pm

shredderrrrrr · Post by **shredderrrrrr** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:13 pm

Jessuf wrote:I did 10 jobs or internships in LS

Damn, you really were busy!

BVest · Post by **BVest** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:00 pm

sd5289 wrote: I worked professionally for a number of years prior to attending law school (in the legal profession), and I had a 1-page resume while applying/interviewing last semester. It just meant that I dropped a bunch of shit and heavily formatted my resume to make sure it fit on one page (didn't sacrifice the "Interests" section either because one of my interests always seems to generate conversation wherever I go). I was able to include my professional life before law school, my summer jobs during law school, my clinic, and my RA positions on one page. You can probably do the same.

This is literally what I was coming here to post. I too have my professional life before LS, summer jobs during LS, clinic, and RA positions. I also have four schools (UG, Grad, 1L LS, 2-3L LS), and my interest section (which is admittedly one line listing several interests). I even include an internship I did straight out of UG because it is of the sort that starts a conversation in about half to two-thirds of my interviews. All on one page and without being too busy or small.

Prior to LS, I was of the "I have to have two pages because of what I've done" opinion, but no longer. And it's not because I'm ridiculously accomplished -- I'm not; it's because I'm old.

BarbellDreams · Post by **BarbellDreams** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:50 am

You get 2+ pages if you A.) Have 5+ years WE or B.) were published. Thats it, don't try to recreate the wheel here.

I did a ton of stuff in LS and I ended up putting clinics down under activities instead of a full time job. I still got asked about them in interviews and could explain the skills I developed. Seriously, the 2 pages may do more harm than good unless you meet one of the two requirements above. The hiring partners at my old firm said they didn't ding anyone for it, it was just annoying. You don't wanna start your first impression off with "This guy/girl is annoying."

Other25BeforeYou · Post by **Other25BeforeYou** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:45 am

Tanicius wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I would, at minimum, ask to be called an "associate" even at the reduced pay just so you can get attorney experience on a resume and then flip asap when something better comes up.
Does it honestly matter for job-seeking purposes what your boss calls you as opposed to what you really do? "Associate" is a term of art that means specific status and job duties at a firm. An associate is a licensed attorney who handles legal work for a law firm without having an equity interest in the firm or managerial authority. If you are a licensed attorney and you handle legal work, I don't think it's dishonest to put down on your resume that you are an associate of that firm. It is actually the law firm that is being dishonest. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too by asking you to do associate-type work but paying you at the rate of a law clerk. It's a predatory employment practice meant to keep you at a disadvantage so you won't leave for better pastures. What actually makes your job that of a law clerk though? If Google said it was going to stop calling its programmers "programmers" and instead call them "coffee interns," do you think its employees would give a shit? If they're coding programs all day, they're putting on their resumes that they are programmers, not coffee bussers.

Huh? People with the titles of senior counsel, of counsel, and staff attorney are all also licensed attorneys that handle legal work for a law firm without having an equity interest in the firm or managerial authority. That doesn't mean you get to pick any one of those titles to put on your resume. If your job title is "law clerk" and you've been specifically told you're not considered an "associate," you'd best not put "associate" on your resume. Misrepresenting your job title is a terrible idea.

rinkrat19 · Post by **rinkrat19** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:53 am

I worked for 10 years before law school and still have a 1-page resume. I list 3 pre-law school jobs, 2 law school summer jobs, and clinic all with proper descriptions of duties, 4 volunteer gigs listed as single lines, and plenty of school activities/honors listed under both LS and UG. Plus a line for interests. It's a full page, no doubt, but with some careful formatting, it's entirely readable and doesn't look uncomfortably crowded.

El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:04 pm

I was going to say that people with 2 page resumes probably have personality disorders before I saw blue lotus' post, but that really sealed the deal.

BlueLotus · Post by **BlueLotus** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:07 pm

El Pollito wrote:I was going to say that people with 2 page resumes probably have personality disorders before I saw blue lotus' post, but that really sealed the deal.

What's wrong with me using the 2 pager for fellowships and the 1 pager for firms/staff attorney positions?

El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:18 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
El Pollito wrote:I was going to say that people with 2 page resumes probably have personality disorders before I saw blue lotus' post, but that really sealed the deal.
What's wrong with me using the 2 pager for fellowships and the 1 pager for firms/staff attorney positions?

If you can't prioritize your accomplishments sufficiently to fit everything on one page while far more accomplished people can, you are delusional.

BVest · Post by **BVest** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:09 pm

Here's my compact one-pager:

Headings are Education, Legal Experience, Other Experience, and Personal Interests

Name (cambria) and address (calibri) are 11 point; section headings (all caps) and schools/employers (small caps) are 10 point Calibri; everything else is 9 point, which is quite readable with Calibri. Cities are the right justified words you see.

El Pollito · Post by **El Pollito** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:13 pm

I can't imagine a two pager actually helps people. I'm sure a lot of employers think you're idiots for not being able to get everything on one page.

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:15 pm

BVest wrote:Here's my compact one-pager:

Headings are Education, Legal Experience, Other Experience, and Personal Interests

Name (cambria) and address (calibri) are 11 point; section headings (all caps) and schools/employers (small caps) are 10 point Calibri; everything else is 9 point, which is quite readable with Calibri. Cities are the right justified words you see.

That's great and everything, but 9-11 point can be hard for older people or people who wear glasses. You might be able to read that, but others might not.

All in all, this is a stupid conversation. I have a 2 point resume and will continue to have a 2 point resume. People aren't worried about my 2 page resume.

worldtraveler · Post by **worldtraveler** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:19 pm

El Pollito wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
El Pollito wrote:I was going to say that people with 2 page resumes probably have personality disorders before I saw blue lotus' post, but that really sealed the deal.
What's wrong with me using the 2 pager for fellowships and the 1 pager for firms/staff attorney positions?
If you can't prioritize your accomplishments sufficiently to fit everything on one page while far more accomplished people can, you are delusional.

Rules are kind of different in public interest though.

BVest · Post by **BVest** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:26 pm

sparty99 wrote: That's great and everything, but 9-11 point can be hard for older people or people who wear glasses. You might be able to read that, but others might not.

As an old person who wears bifocals, I assure you it's readable. In addition, much of this occurs electronically these days, and folks can make my pdf resume as large as the like.

shredderrrrrr · Post by **shredderrrrrr** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:24 pm

BVest wrote: everything else is 9 point

I was always told to never go below 11.

shredderrrrrr · Post by **shredderrrrrr** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:28 pm

El Pollito wrote:I can't imagine a two pager actually helps people. I'm sure a lot of employers think you're idiots for not being able to get everything on one page.

I agree with you in the sense I feel like a lot of this conversation is missing the point. Are some people accomplished enough to have information going beyond one page? Sure. But I'm not convinced that means they should. If someone holds 10 law-related jobs, they are all certainly justified in being featured on a resume, but I can't help but think an employer would rather just read about the 5 most relevant positions.

shredderrrrrr · Post by **shredderrrrrr** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:30 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:You get 2+ pages if you A.) Have 5+ years WE or B.) were published. Thats it, don't try to recreate the wheel here.

I did a ton of stuff in LS and I ended up putting clinics down under activities instead of a full time job. I still got asked about them in interviews and could explain the skills I developed. Seriously, the 2 pages may do more harm than good unless you meet one of the two requirements above. The hiring partners at my old firm said they didn't ding anyone for it, it was just annoying. You don't wanna start your first impression off with "This guy/girl is annoying."

Care to elaborate on B? Does "published" include something like a Note? Because I had two articles published while in LS and just have: "Publications: Cite 1; Cite 2."

Holly Golightly · Post by **Holly Golightly** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:32 pm

I used a 2 page resume when I applied for PI jobs because I really wanted to highlight my relevant clinic experience and list them as jobs rather than just under my school. I also had several externships during law school and relevant pre-law school experience. Even just putting 1 or 2 lines under each position made it impossible to keep it on 1 page without using a small font and screwing with the margins.