The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Palli4222
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Palli4222 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Hi all,

I am a recent member of the vale and wanted to introduce myself! Current 3L at T25, T25% class, LR... etc. Recently got no-offered by my mid law summer firm which has a history of no-offering. I knew this was a possibility before my summer, but getting no-offered freaking hurts. Pretty down right now. Getting no-offered combined with my failure at OCI (~25 Screeners, 3CBs, 1o) has me really doubting myself. I start to doubt every little thing i'm doing, but then realize I'll drive myself crazy doing this, but its hard not to have those thoughts pop up. Been working on my interviewing skills doing mock interviews, getting feedback, but still keep getting rejected the past few weeks. Not sure what it is, I've been working on my interviewing and getting some good feedback, I'm pretty convinced I just have a hateable/punchable face- although my gf might say otherwise, but she's paid to say that.
But shit is really depressing seeing everyone else, esp. close friends with great jobs after school. I've just been drinking and feeling bad for myself. I would appreciate any guidance on what to do from here. Any help would be appreciated! I'm willing to do what it takes and put a shit ton of effort in to get a good job, I just need some guidance on how to go about this. Do I mass mail? Apply to postings on simplicity?

Thank you fellow vale members/those who have escaped from the vale.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:38 pm

In the vale. Got semi-cold offered by my summer firm (told they don't do soft offers but wink wink we have a neutral reference policy so you don't have to say you got no offered). Was feeling better because I had several interviews lined up, but then I got a rejection in the mail today from a callback I went on last week. Feeling pretty down on myself, and not sure if the screener I had this afternoon went so well. Mass mailed almost every firm in my small home market today.
I like the poster above, think I may just have some quality about me that turns off lawyers. I did pretty abysmally in OCI as a 2L despite decent stats (lots of screeners, low callback conversion rate, low callback to offer rate), and the no offer really rocked my social confidence . I'm told that I'm attractive and I seem to have lots of friends and get along with strangers easily, so I'm trying to figure out what it is. I've seen interview coaches, read self help type books on how to interview better and always do my research. I asked my summer firm for legitimate feedback (my midsummer review was glowing and my end of summer review was good besides for one project that I made a mistake on. I corrected the mistake on a second draft), and they said it was the assignment. Given that I got glowing reviews from partners on everything else I find it kind of hard to believe, and am really starting to wonder if I come across as totally clueless.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:12 am

Palli4222 wrote:Getting no-offered combined with my failure at OCI (~25 Screeners, 3CBs, 1o) has me really doubting myself.


I think you may be surprised at how many people, even from T14s, and even with good grades at T14s, end up with only one or a few offers. I wouldn't take too much away from your OCI result, assuming you've done your homework with interviewing (i.e., videotape yourself doing a mock interview, get feedback from everyone you can who has interviewed you, etc.). If you're not getting negative feedback from interviewers, you may just be unlucky, you may be targeting practice area(s) that aren't that busy, or some other random factors may be fucking things up for you.

Definitely keep mass mailing and applying on Simplicity.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:52 am

Does anyone here have experience with criminal public interest hiring? I'm a 3L at a T10 focusing on criminal law - mostly DA offices and state AG offices. At this point, should I only be applying to places that explicitly state Fall 2018 start date? Is it safe to assume that most public interest employers that have a job posting (without a start date) are looking for someone to start ASAP? My career advisor is telling me that hiring for the work I'm interested in is more of a marathon and not a sprint - and that I should keep my eyes open but not just mass mail every DA/state AG/crim-NGO in the nation just yet.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:47 pm

Palli4222 wrote:Hi all,

I am a recent member of the vale and wanted to introduce myself! Current 3L at T25, T25% class, LR... etc. Recently got no-offered by my mid law summer firm which has a history of no-offering. I knew this was a possibility before my summer, but getting no-offered freaking hurts. Pretty down right now. Getting no-offered combined with my failure at OCI (~25 Screeners, 3CBs, 1o) has me really doubting myself. I start to doubt every little thing i'm doing, but then realize I'll drive myself crazy doing this, but its hard not to have those thoughts pop up. Been working on my interviewing skills doing mock interviews, getting feedback, but still keep getting rejected the past few weeks. Not sure what it is, I've been working on my interviewing and getting some good feedback, I'm pretty convinced I just have a hateable/punchable face- although my gf might say otherwise, but she's paid to say that.
But shit is really depressing seeing everyone else, esp. close friends with great jobs after school. I've just been drinking and feeling bad for myself. I would appreciate any guidance on what to do from here. Any help would be appreciated! I'm willing to do what it takes and put a shit ton of effort in to get a good job, I just need some guidance on how to go about this. Do I mass mail? Apply to postings on simplicity?

Thank you fellow vale members/those who have escaped from the vale.


You should do both. And go beyond simplicity and check LinkedIn, Monster, Etc. You'd be surprised how many jobs are on there. Also be smart marketwise. New York is very actively hiring 3Ls right now so i would focus most of my apps there if i was you. Same with Charlotte, NC. Im assuming you want a firm job

Also, its incredibly important that you get good references from your firm. It doesnt matter that they no offered you. Some jobs dont care for references but you want to be able to say that you have people who can attest to your work product

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:10 pm

Full round interviews at Goodwin Boston two weeks ago, got an offer the week after and accepted.

Stats: T25, middle of class, lots of leadership, significant/helpful work experience before law school

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Full round interviews at Goodwin Boston two weeks ago, got an offer the week after and accepted.

Stats: T25, middle of class, lots of leadership, significant/helpful work experience before law school


Did you have a 2L SA?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:08 pm

Proskauer Boston also had full round interviews. Mayer Brown and Loeb & Loeb are also actively interviewing in NY

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My intention wasn't to shit on people and I'm sorry if it came across that way. My intention was to assure the large population of lurkers out there that these stories are atypical and that they aren't hopeless. Reading this thread made me borderline syicidal when I was no-offered. And I don't think anyone in this thread has a problem that can't be fixed. It's just a matter of recognizing that one is not doomed to fail if they are dealt a certain set of circumstances. Having that mentality of being in a "vale" will subconsciously affect how you portray yourself to employers. I know it did for me until someone took a chance in me and I got that confidence back


how did you explain your no-offer in interviews?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:42 pm

Id rather explain that through a DM lol

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone here have experience with criminal public interest hiring? I'm a 3L at a T10 focusing on criminal law - mostly DA offices and state AG offices. At this point, should I only be applying to places that explicitly state Fall 2018 start date? Is it safe to assume that most public interest employers that have a job posting (without a start date) are looking for someone to start ASAP? My career advisor is telling me that hiring for the work I'm interested in is more of a marathon and not a sprint - and that I should keep my eyes open but not just mass mail every DA/state AG/crim-NGO in the nation just yet.

Would appreciate your thoughts.


I know two recent graduates who were hired as DAs (different offices) a month before graduation. One started in August and the other starts in October. FWIW.

forty-two
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby forty-two » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone here have experience with criminal public interest hiring? I'm a 3L at a T10 focusing on criminal law - mostly DA offices and state AG offices. At this point, should I only be applying to places that explicitly state Fall 2018 start date? Is it safe to assume that most public interest employers that have a job posting (without a start date) are looking for someone to start ASAP? My career advisor is telling me that hiring for the work I'm interested in is more of a marathon and not a sprint - and that I should keep my eyes open but not just mass mail every DA/state AG/crim-NGO in the nation just yet.

Would appreciate your thoughts.


It depends on where you're applying. I've heard that some places hire well in advance, but I think that's pretty rare. In the jurisdictions near me, they hire when there's an immediate need, usually after bar results. I've only seen people hired before bar results when they were already an intern at the office.

I'm a PD now, and I was so stressed during and after 3L about not having anything lined up, but I ended up getting a job the week after I passed the bar. Hiring practices just tend to be really different for criminal law, so try not to compare yourself to people applying to firms.

letoile
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby letoile » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:19 pm

Would you mind sending me a PM? Thanks

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys,

I just got out of the vale a week ago and I wanted to post this for those who are reading through this thread and felt the same mixture of depression and hopelessness that I felt when I read through this thread. I know I'm going to offend some people but I think it's important that it gets out.

I was in the worst possible place at the start of my 3L yearS I was no offered from my summer firm and my grades were in the bottom 25th percentile of my class. Poor with no family connections. and I'm K-JD. I ended up with four offers from V50 law firms, two offers from inhouse positions paying over 150k, and an offer from McKinsey which I ended up accepting. And the offers/interviews keep coming in. All of these offers were in my target market or NYC. What I learned in the past month is that this thread is incredibly inaccurate and is based on extremely extremely rare anomalies. There is no reason to think you will be like one of the few people here who graduate from a top law school and end up unemployed. I would go so far as to say that it is literally impossible to graduate from a top law school unemployed as long as you have three things:

1) a compelling way of selling yourself through interviews (#1 priority) and cover letters and resumes

2) the ability to change your practice area interest per firm and per location.

3) the motivation to mass mail literally every firm and apply to every job that comes across your computer screen.

There is no reason to think that the people in this thread will be you. They are anomalies for a reason. Work on your resume/CL/ and most importantly your interview skills and you will be fine before you graduate.

Don't take a DA job or clerkship or contract lawyer job because you think it's your only option. It's not. If you went to a T14 there is no reason you can't get a firm job and make all the money you thought you'd be making when you graduated. This goes for oci and 3L interviewing. I can't promise you it'll be in the market that you want but I can promise you that if you know how to sell yourself, 180k is well within reach.

I know what you're thinking and it's probably that your school has some people who report being unemployed and that this person could be you but those people don't follow the three points I outlined above. They are either terrible at interviewing and refuse to improve or don't have the documents or story that would lead to an interview.

Also when it comes to some other things I've read on this thread. This is how I approached it and it helped me keep a small portion of my sanity:

1) when people ask where you're headed to, just lie. Say that you're still thinking about it but that you have offers at (insert firm you did an interview with) that you're debating. It'll make your conversation less awkward.

2) you definitely should make your career advisors your best friends and get them to sell you to firms.

3) don't apply to random Midwestern da offices unless you actually want to do it.

4) stop reading this thread. It's poisonous and incredibly useless. Instead, mass mail.

Dm me for questions or if you want some help. I'd be more than happy to share

andythefir
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby andythefir » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone here have experience with criminal public interest hiring? I'm a 3L at a T10 focusing on criminal law - mostly DA offices and state AG offices. At this point, should I only be applying to places that explicitly state Fall 2018 start date? Is it safe to assume that most public interest employers that have a job posting (without a start date) are looking for someone to start ASAP? My career advisor is telling me that hiring for the work I'm interested in is more of a marathon and not a sprint - and that I should keep my eyes open but not just mass mail every DA/state AG/crim-NGO in the nation just yet.

Would appreciate your thoughts.


I know two recent graduates who were hired as DAs (different offices) a month before graduation. One started in August and the other starts in October. FWIW.


This is also my experience. The only places that can hire this far out and can handle the risk of you failing the bar are either going to be 1 enormous offices that can handle losing an attorney here and there, and they know there will be a need because constant turnover means there will be someone coming or going at all times and 2 the really, truly, desperate offices.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:40 am

As an FYI, someone shot me a PM asking for a BYU job bank password update, and the place I go to get the login info hasn't updated yet. If I remember, I'll check back in a week and see if they've got a new one.

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TTH
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby TTH » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:52 pm

TTH wrote:As an FYI, someone shot me a PM asking for a BYU job bank password update, and the place I go to get the login info hasn't updated yet. If I remember, I'll check back in a week and see if they've got a new one.


Thanks to a timely contribution from a friend of the thread, login info on OP is updated and current.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:55 am

I got an offer, but it's complicated and still needs to work on timing.

(Not GoodLaw but fits my goals, I was contacted after leaving a request for mentorship on a state association ListServ. I will fly out after exams to hammer out.)

Didn't mean to anon this- rcsob657

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:16 pm

I graduated back in dec 16, passed the bar and am currently working as associate at small law tat pays 40k a year. Recently got an offer from a Japanese Fintech company for assistant legal counsel role that pays around 55k-65k. Any tho guys? I like what I am doing now, although the pay is shit, I am learning a lot ,and eventually I might consider having my own practice. Should I go to Japan for a year or two for a diff exp or just stay in ny?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby champ33 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:I graduated back in dec 16, passed the bar and am currently working as associate at small law tat pays 40k a year. Recently got an offer from a Japanese Fintech company for assistant legal counsel role that pays around 55k-65k. Any tho guys? I like what I am doing now, although the pay is shit, I am learning a lot ,and eventually I might consider having my own practice. Should I go to Japan for a year or two for a diff exp or just stay in ny?


Since you have a job don't think you're in the right thread. With that said, if you enjoy what you're doing, that's worth a lot - more than a 25k raise and a move to Japan, unless that's where you want to be. If you're in the city you want to be in and gaining good experience, I'd say stay. You should be able to leverage your experience to go to a firm with higher pay after a while.

souljazz
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby souljazz » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys,

I just got out of the vale a week ago and I wanted to post this for those who are reading through this thread and felt the same mixture of depression and hopelessness that I felt when I read through this thread. I know I'm going to offend some people but I think it's important that it gets out.

I was in the worst possible place at the start of my 3L yearS I was no offered from my summer firm and my grades were in the bottom 25th percentile of my class. Poor with no family connections. and I'm K-JD. I ended up with four offers from V50 law firms, two offers from inhouse positions paying over 150k, and an offer from McKinsey which I ended up accepting. And the offers/interviews keep coming in. All of these offers were in my target market or NYC. What I learned in the past month is that this thread is incredibly inaccurate and is based on extremely extremely rare anomalies. There is no reason to think you will be like one of the few people here who graduate from a top law school and end up unemployed. I would go so far as to say that it is literally impossible to graduate from a top law school unemployed as long as you have three things:

1) a compelling way of selling yourself through interviews (#1 priority) and cover letters and resumes

2) the ability to change your practice area interest per firm and per location.

3) the motivation to mass mail literally every firm and apply to every job that comes across your computer screen.

There is no reason to think that the people in this thread will be you. They are anomalies for a reason. Work on your resume/CL/ and most importantly your interview skills and you will be fine before you graduate.

Don't take a DA job or clerkship or contract lawyer job because you think it's your only option. It's not. If you went to a T14 there is no reason you can't get a firm job and make all the money you thought you'd be making when you graduated. This goes for oci and 3L interviewing. I can't promise you it'll be in the market that you want but I can promise you that if you know how to sell yourself, 180k is well within reach.

I know what you're thinking and it's probably that your school has some people who report being unemployed and that this person could be you but those people don't follow the three points I outlined above. They are either terrible at interviewing and refuse to improve or don't have the documents or story that would lead to an interview.

Also when it comes to some other things I've read on this thread. This is how I approached it and it helped me keep a small portion of my sanity:

1) when people ask where you're headed to, just lie. Say that you're still thinking about it but that you have offers at (insert firm you did an interview with) that you're debating. It'll make your conversation less awkward.

2) you definitely should make your career advisors your best friends and get them to sell you to firms.

3) don't apply to random Midwestern da offices unless you actually want to do it.

4) stop reading this thread. It's poisonous and incredibly useless. Instead, mass mail.

Dm me for questions or if you want some help. I'd be more than happy to share


Could you ping me? Would love to DM.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:52 pm

champ33 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I graduated back in dec 16, passed the bar and am currently working as associate at small law tat pays 40k a year. Recently got an offer from a Japanese Fintech company for assistant legal counsel role that pays around 55k-65k. Any tho guys? I like what I am doing now, although the pay is shit, I am learning a lot ,and eventually I might consider having my own practice. Should I go to Japan for a year or two for a diff exp or just stay in ny?


Since you have a job don't think you're in the right thread. With that said, if you enjoy what you're doing, that's worth a lot - more than a 25k raise and a move to Japan, unless that's where you want to be. If you're in the city you want to be in and gaining good experience, I'd say stay. You should be able to leverage your experience to go to a firm with higher pay after a while.



I forgot to mention there is also a 30k bonus, so roughly 90k. sigh. I have previously given up a big bank offer for small law. Am i being crazy here?

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BVest
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby BVest » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
champ33 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I graduated back in dec 16, passed the bar and am currently working as associate at small law tat pays 40k a year. Recently got an offer from a Japanese Fintech company for assistant legal counsel role that pays around 55k-65k. Any tho guys? I like what I am doing now, although the pay is shit, I am learning a lot ,and eventually I might consider having my own practice. Should I go to Japan for a year or two for a diff exp or just stay in ny?


Since you have a job don't think you're in the right thread. With that said, if you enjoy what you're doing, that's worth a lot - more than a 25k raise and a move to Japan, unless that's where you want to be. If you're in the city you want to be in and gaining good experience, I'd say stay. You should be able to leverage your experience to go to a firm with higher pay after a while.



I forgot to mention there is also a 30k bonus, so roughly 90k. sigh. I have previously given up a big bank offer for small law. Am i being crazy here?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Pleasye » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
champ33 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I graduated back in dec 16, passed the bar and am currently working as associate at small law tat pays 40k a year. Recently got an offer from a Japanese Fintech company for assistant legal counsel role that pays around 55k-65k. Any tho guys? I like what I am doing now, although the pay is shit, I am learning a lot ,and eventually I might consider having my own practice. Should I go to Japan for a year or two for a diff exp or just stay in ny?


Since you have a job don't think you're in the right thread. With that said, if you enjoy what you're doing, that's worth a lot - more than a 25k raise and a move to Japan, unless that's where you want to be. If you're in the city you want to be in and gaining good experience, I'd say stay. You should be able to leverage your experience to go to a firm with higher pay after a while.



I forgot to mention there is also a 30k bonus, so roughly 90k. sigh. I have previously given up a big bank offer for small law. Am i being crazy here?

This is not the thread for you. Seek career path advice in a different thread.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:43 am

Well I've been sending resumes to every firm in my state that practices my area of the law and I keep getting either nothing back or a form email stating they have no openings. I'm thinking of taking the bar in another state but I do not have anywhere near enough cash to do that. I'm having panic attacks at least once a day at this point. It's been almost a year since my "sure thing" offer magically turned into nothing after OCI was already over and this has been the worst year of my life by a mile. The amount of stress vomiting I'm doing can't be good for my body.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:15 pm

I'm applying to a job posting that I've applied to before (it's a symplicity posting with a year-end deadline that gets refreshed every year). I was dinged via e-mail (before having a screener or anything) the first time I applied, which was last year. At the time, I was underqualified for the position. I am now qualified for the position and wish to apply again. The posting asks for a resume and cover letter. At any point should I indicate that I've applied before, or do I just treat the second application as an entirely new application? I assume the latter, but the idea of informing them "hey you have a file on me already and i'm now significantly more qualified" to save them time, etc. seems reasonable as well.




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