The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[dresden doll]

Well, lol at me, then. Don't tell rinkdad.

FYI: most PI places that are semi-respectable have a salary scale for legal staff. And before they hire, budgetary decisions are made about the trade off between the value of saving money (by hiring someone lower on the scale) and the value of experience.

If a post says 4 years of experience are wanted, the place may be willing to ease that req for the right person. But people with 5-6 yrs of experience simply won't get hired for entry level job. So if you are applying for some entry level job, I seriously would not worry about that .

In addition to this, sometimes having a skill that that organization really needs will really make up for your lack of lawyering experience.

Would this include Spanish fluency?

Yes, if it's really important for the position and the organization is not getting a sufficient number of qualified candidates.

At the minimum, Title VI requires meaningful access to assistance provided by any DOJ/HHS grantee. Having someone who can just speak the language and thereby save you the cost of scrambling for a translator/interpreter to comply with Title VI is pretty important.

[rinkrat19]

The University of Oregon and Willamette University job lists in the BYU job bank were both last updated at the beginning of March and almost all of the job openings are expired.

(Not to mention that they're nearly all for experienced lawyers, but what else is new. I've actually seen two openings for OCS directors. wtf.)



ETA: Thought this was funny (from a job posting by Vestas Wind Technology). Could it be any vaguer? It sounds like generic language that they were supposed to replace with something relevant to their company.

KNOWLEDGE
Mastery of a specific professional discipline combining deep knowledge of theory and organizational
practice or expertise across several different disciplines within a function or several different job areas.
This role provides legal counsel to a variety of internal organizations and is involved in litigation for both
US and Canada.
COMMUNICATION
Manage communications of great importance having short-term operational, medium term tactical and
longer term strategic implications. Regularly interacts with personnel throughout the company, external
counsel, counterparties and customers.

[Anonymous User]

Hi Guys:

I am a longtime lurker who is in need of some advice. I am a 2014 graduate from a T3 law school. I was top 14% with a full-tuition scholarship (attended my T3 entirely for financial reasons, actually ended up really enjoying all of my coursework), relatively prestigious undergrad, and corporate legal experience as a law clerk at a botique corporate firm. I applied for a biglaw position in a major market as a junior corporate associate (lateral hiring). I have now been on 3 rounds of interviews and met with over 10 attorneys. I have really liked all of the attorneys I have met with. The entire process is now nearing five months. It has been 6 weeks since my last round, in which I met with 7 lawyers. All of the hiring folks I have dealt with are extremely pleasant and continue to apologize for the delay in response to my follow-ups-assuring me a response is coming soon. I am in real need of closure. Should I completely rule this position out, or continue to maintain some sliver of hope? Does a biglaw lateral hiring process typically take this long? Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

[shredderrrrrr]

Today I find out whether the firm I interviewed with 3 weeks ago will hire me. It cost me over $1,000 for a trip to another state's CLE to get this potential job information while networking. I currently have no other options. This decision will determine if I stay in the this region of the country, move to another region for my wife to take a job in a small city with nothing to do and terrible weather, or if my wife will decide to go home to her parents and essentially leave me until I find an adequate job. The pressure behind today's decision is so intense that I've been on the verge of throwing up all morning. I've always been on the fence about whether or not there is a god, but I sure am praying to him today.

This has been my exact situation for the past two months (interspersed with an interview and then a lunch meeting). I either get my dream job or am completely fucked. I wish I knew what day I would hear--they never gave me a definite timeline. I can't take checking my phone constantly all day every day waiting to hear.

Congrats on getting the job!

[rinkrat19]

Rink, aren't you an engineer or have a tech background? I would play that up a bit on your resume. Most PI places are absolute trainwrecks in terms of having people competent with technology and are operating in the stone ages. Just as an example, if you're applying to do direct services work and would also be qualified to develop a free data management system to better keep track of client records, they might take you over a more experienced attorney.

Just saw this.

I have, but all that has gotten me is "didn't you want to try to go for IP?" from PI and regular law firms, and "we actually hire mostly CS and EE majors, not [my engineering major]" from IP firms. It's been pretty much a loser all around.

[zot1]

Rink, aren't you an engineer or have a tech background? I would play that up a bit on your resume. Most PI places are absolute trainwrecks in terms of having people competent with technology and are operating in the stone ages. Just as an example, if you're applying to do direct services work and would also be qualified to develop a free data management system to better keep track of client records, they might take you over a more experienced attorney.

Just saw this.

I have, but all that has gotten me is "didn't you want to try to go for IP?" from PI and regular law firms, and "we actually hire mostly CS and EE majors, not [my engineering major]" from IP firms. It's been pretty much a loser all around.

Rink, what market are you in?

[rinkrat19]

Rink, what market are you in?

Portland. lol at me again, right?

I actually did OCI for Chicago and SF (I'm at Northwestern), and covered Portland and Seattle via mass mail. I did IP and PI fairs. I did both summers in the Portland area at state/regional government agencies. When I thought I had a fellowship all but lined up, I finally committed to taking the Oregon bar. Now I'm heading home to Oregon with nothing lined up, but my dad is there to fall back on for a while.

I found Portland firms far more concerned than I expected with WHY ON EARTH anyone who had lived in Portland for 30+ years would leave to go to law school in Chicago. Like I was some kind of traitor, and insane for going to law school anywhere besides Lewis & Clark. Maybe they'd understand such deviant behavior for Harvard/Yale, but definitely not for Northwestern. Seattle ignored me entirely (I was born there), as did Denver (lived there as a young kid). And I haven't actually gotten to the interview stage with any government employers, so I don't know if they're as snotty about me leaving for three years.

In the past few days, I've sent out apps for one state job and 4 rural county DA offices. All except one of the counties is truly in the boonies, but at least they're in the right state. Those are all the counties hiring at the moment.

[zot1]

Rink, what market are you in?

Portland. lol at me again, right?

I actually did OCI for Chicago and SF (I'm at Northwestern), and covered Portland and Seattle via mass mail. I did IP and PI fairs. I did both summers in the Portland area at state/regional government agencies. When I thought I had a fellowship all but lined up, I finally committed to taking the Oregon bar. Now I'm heading home to Oregon with nothing lined up, but my dad is there to fall back on for a while.

I found Portland firms far more concerned than I expected with WHY ON EARTH anyone who had lived in Portland for 30+ years would leave to go to law school in Chicago. Like I was some kind of traitor, and insane for going to law school anywhere besides Lewis & Clark. Maybe they'd understand such deviant behavior for Harvard/Yale, but definitely not for Northwestern. Seattle ignored me entirely (I was born there), as did Denver (lived there as a young kid). And I haven't actually gotten to the interview stage with any government employers, so I don't know if they're as snotty about me leaving for three years.

In the past few days, I've sent out apps for one state job and 4 rural county DA offices. All except one of the counties is truly in the boonies, but at least they're in the right state. Those are all the counties hiring at the moment.

If you're willing to move, I get the impression that a lot of IP boutiques in Orange County are having trouble getting people. If you're up for that work and a lame place, might be worth looking into.

[zot1]

Rink, what market are you in?

Portland. lol at me again, right?

I actually did OCI for Chicago and SF (I'm at Northwestern), and covered Portland and Seattle via mass mail. I did IP and PI fairs. I did both summers in the Portland area at state/regional government agencies. When I thought I had a fellowship all but lined up, I finally committed to taking the Oregon bar. Now I'm heading home to Oregon with nothing lined up, but my dad is there to fall back on for a while.

I found Portland firms far more concerned than I expected with WHY ON EARTH anyone who had lived in Portland for 30+ years would leave to go to law school in Chicago. Like I was some kind of traitor, and insane for going to law school anywhere besides Lewis & Clark. Maybe they'd understand such deviant behavior for Harvard/Yale, but definitely not for Northwestern. Seattle ignored me entirely (I was born there), as did Denver (lived there as a young kid). And I haven't actually gotten to the interview stage with any government employers, so I don't know if they're as snotty about me leaving for three years.

In the past few days, I've sent out apps for one state job and 4 rural county DA offices. All except one of the counties is truly in the boonies, but at least they're in the right state. Those are all the counties hiring at the moment.

If you're willing to move, I get the impression that a lot of IP boutiques in Orange County are having trouble getting people. If you're up for that work and a lame place, might be worth looking into.

Oregon is weird that way. I tried to apply to some jobs there and didn't get even an interview. Employers were candid enough: "we only hire people from Oregon."

[Anonymous User]

If a job says "you must be a member of _____ bar to apply" and you just passed the bar exam but haven't been sworn in yet, would you apply?

[horriblegb]

If a job says "you must be a member of _____ bar to apply" and you just passed the bar exam but haven't been sworn in yet, would you apply?

Absolutely

[Anonymous User]

The thought of having to move back home from Law School without a job is just killing me. I just don't know how I am going to be able to put up with it. My dad is an attorney, but from a different era. They just do not understand.

I can already tell I am going to be on a strong path towards alcoholism when living there.

[Holly Golightly]

If a job says "you must be a member of _____ bar to apply" and you just passed the bar exam but haven't been sworn in yet, would you apply?

Absolutely

Apparently (and to my surprise) some state government positions really mean it when they say wait to apply until you're a member of the bar. If you can, call and ask.

[horriblegb]

If a job says "you must be a member of _____ bar to apply" and you just passed the bar exam but haven't been sworn in yet, would you apply?

Absolutely

Apparently (and to my surprise) some state government positions really mean it when they say wait to apply until you're a member of the bar. If you can, call and ask.

this comes as a surprise to me too! I have never heard of anything like that, but I wouldnt call if it was a firm, I would just mention in my cover letter and resume I passed and was waiting for admission.

[Anonymous User]

3L in the midst of finals. Managed to score an interview at my dream firm (think small-mid-sized boutique type firm) thanks in part to the recommendation of a judge I externed for. Interview went well and they called me back to "meet the rest of the partners" the following week, at 4pm on a Friday.

I also talked to one of the partners on the phone right after the first interview and he had positive things to say, told me there were actually two openings and asked which I would be more interested in.

What should I expect out of this? I have no idea if they're treating this as a "callback" style interview or what; the first one was already with 5 of the firm's partners.

I NEED to get this job.

Anonymous because I'm giving out a lot of details in this post.

[shredderrrrrr]

3L in the midst of finals. Managed to score an interview at my dream firm (think small-mid-sized boutique type firm) thanks in part to the recommendation of a judge I externed for. Interview went well and they called me back to "meet the rest of the partners" the following week, at 4pm on a Friday.

I also talked to one of the partners on the phone right after the first interview and he had positive things to say, told me there were actually two openings and asked which I would be more interested in.

What should I expect out of this? I have no idea if they're treating this as a "callback" style interview or what; the first one was already with 5 of the firm's partners.

I NEED to get this job.

Anonymous because I'm giving out a lot of details in this post.

Every time I read a post like this, I get irrationally worried the poster is in the running for the same job as me.

Though as an aside, it sounds like you’re likely to be getting a job offer. Fingers crossed!

[BVest]

If a job says "you must be a member of _____ bar to apply" and you just passed the bar exam but haven't been sworn in yet, would you apply?

Absolutely

Apparently (and to my surprise) some state government positions really mean it when they say wait to apply until you're a member of the bar. If you can, call and ask.

this comes as a surprise to me too! I have never heard of anything like that, but I wouldnt call if it was a firm, I would just mention in my cover letter and resume I passed and was waiting for admission.

Some states allow you to get sworn in (by a judge or other permissible administrator of oaths) prior to the general swearing in, though it might also be limited to specific needs (such as entering an appearance).

[BlueLotus]

For SSA Attorney Advisor positions, do you need to be barred in the state the position is located in? Or can you be barred in any state because you're dealing exclusively with federal law?

[Holly Golightly]

If a job says "you must be a member of _____ bar to apply" and you just passed the bar exam but haven't been sworn in yet, would you apply?

Absolutely

Apparently (and to my surprise) some state government positions really mean it when they say wait to apply until you're a member of the bar. If you can, call and ask.

this comes as a surprise to me too! I have never heard of anything like that, but I wouldnt call if it was a firm, I would just mention in my cover letter and resume I passed and was waiting for admission.

Agreed, for firms I wouldn't call. The only time I have ever heard of this mattering is for certain state (not federal) government positions.

[Anonymous User]

For SSA Attorney Advisor positions, do you need to be barred in the state the position is located in? Or can you be barred in any state because you're dealing exclusively with federal law?

I believe it can be any state.

I am at a different agency and a few of the attorneys I work with are barred in different states. Though, there was a clear preference for people who are barred in the state that I am in during the hiring process.

If I remember correctly usually the USA jobs posting will saying some like "An applicant must be a member in good standing of the bar of a state"

[Omerta]

For SSA Attorney Advisor positions, do you need to be barred in the state the position is located in? Or can you be barred in any state because you're dealing exclusively with federal law?

Not initially. Most courts allow an attorney representing the US or a government agency to appear PHV if the attorney is the member of any USDC bar. The caveat is that the attorney must join the local federal bar no later than 18 months from the date of their appointment if the attorney resides in the district.

That's why the job posting requires bar membership in some state's bar and not the state where the position is located.

BlueLotus, the easiest way to figure out whether you'd need to take another bar exam is to check the USDC's local rules in the district where the position is located.

[bjohnsobf]

you're never going to be in court at SSA dude, you just have to be a member of any bar to qualify for a series 905 attorney job with the federal government.

[rinkrat19]

Maybe this would be useful for more than just me. Wise people, TEACH ME HOW TO CONTACT AN ALUM.

I was given a list of Oregon alums (to my surprise, there are more than 2) by the CSO. How should I use this? I suck at cold-contacting someone to schmooze them. Do I ask if I can buy them a coffee when I get to town (in 6 weeks or so) and humbly ask for any advice they might have for a fledgling grad? Do I more bluntly ask whether they know anyone who's hiring?
How do I target alums? The retired ones I assume are mostly pointless unless I know they're a retired partner or judge, right? Too recent of a grad won't have any contacts or hiring pull.

[zot1]

Maybe this would be useful for more than just me. Wise people, TEACH ME HOW TO CONTACT AN ALUM.

I was given a list of Oregon alums (to my surprise, there are more than 2) by the CSO. How should I use this? I suck at cold-contacting someone to schmooze them. Do I ask if I can buy them a coffee when I get to town (in 6 weeks or so) and humbly ask for any advice they might have for a fledgling grad? Do I more bluntly ask whether they know anyone who's hiring?
How do I target alums? The retired ones I assume are mostly pointless unless I know they're a retired partner or judge, right? Too recent of a grad won't have any contacts or hiring pull.

The advice I've gotten regarding approaching alumni is to ask for a coffee or an informational interview over the phone. Then ask about their path and how they got there. Ideally, they would at some point during the conversation bring up if they know anybody hiring or if they can forward your résumé somewhere. But if the conversation is almost over and they haven't, then you bring it up.

I only tried this once myself. The person asked me if I had a clerkship lined up and when I said I didnt, she politely informed me that she only knew people who hired former clerks.

[Anonymous User]

Just snagged a local judicial clerkship!

Believe me, I'm beyond excited about this and I'm going to do something to celebrate tonight, but guys, maybe it's lingering Vale effects and months upon months of stress or something, but at the same time, I cannot stop worrying about what happens when the clerkship is over. Someone please tell me the worrying eventually stops...