The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:(Excuse the negativity. Bad day and I just really need to vent)

3L without a job a month before graduation... I'm trying sooo hard to stay motivated but to be honest, my mood mostly just swings between depressed and numb. Really what do I do at this point? I was doing so well before law school, went to a T6, and everybody around me was talking about how great their lives are going to be after graduation like they are just going to coast for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile, I can't help but feel like all this money, time and hard work I invested was all for nothing. The prospect of not having a job after the bar terrifies but also paralyzes me. I feel like I've tried everything - MMing, networking (debatable if I've done enough of that), and talking to career services, etc and nothing is working. I know I have to but I seem to be at a point where I just don't have it in me to care anymore. And then I feel guilty about not caring enough. It's this toxic cycle that I can't seem to get out of. How did people get through this? Is there any chance that I can still get a job in the private sector before taking the bar?

I'm sorry to hear that. The Vale can be a frustrating and terrifying place.

Why do you need to find work in the private sector? I secured a job with a cool government agency two weeks after I took the bar. Maybe that's not much consolation now, but it's something to keep in mind.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:16 pm

Guys, now it's not time to lose steam. Tanking your grades won't help you in the long run. Keep pushing through. Even if this struggle continues through the bar, stay motivated. Think of this as a marathon; it'll suck all the way until the end, but you gotta finish and once you do, it'll all be worth it.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If it makes you feel any better, I'm in the same boat (on the public interest side though). My anxiety has gotten really bad the past week; yesterday I was close to having a panic-attack in the library. I took today off to reset and take care of myself, which helped a lot (if you're able to, I recommend this). Back to the grind tomorrow.


OP here - that really helps. The anxiety issue is a problem for me too. Sometimes just being in law school makes me uneasy and tense. Maybe I should just take a day off once in a while.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:(Excuse the negativity. Bad day and I just really need to vent)

3L without a job a month before graduation... I'm trying sooo hard to stay motivated but to be honest, my mood mostly just swings between depressed and numb. Really what do I do at this point? I was doing so well before law school, went to a T6, and everybody around me was talking about how great their lives are going to be after graduation like they are just going to coast for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile, I can't help but feel like all this money, time and hard work I invested was all for nothing. The prospect of not having a job after the bar terrifies but also paralyzes me. I feel like I've tried everything - MMing, networking (debatable if I've done enough of that), and talking to career services, etc and nothing is working. I know I have to but I seem to be at a point where I just don't have it in me to care anymore. And then I feel guilty about not caring enough. It's this toxic cycle that I can't seem to get out of. How did people get through this? Is there any chance that I can still get a job in the private sector before taking the bar?

I'm sorry to hear that. The Vale can be a frustrating and terrifying place.

Why do you need to find work in the private sector? I secured a job with a cool government agency two weeks after I took the bar. Maybe that's not much consolation now, but it's something to keep in mind.


I'm not a citizen so sadly the government route is not an option for me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby zot1 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:36 pm

I should add I did not get a job until the week before finals, and I know many people who got jobs while studying for the bar and shortly after taking it. Just keep pushing!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:23 am

zot1 wrote:I should add I did not get a job until the week before finals, and I know many people who got jobs while studying for the bar and shortly after taking it. Just keep pushing!


I didn't get my small firm job until a few weeks before I sat for the bar. It sucks, it's stressful as hell, but it's not hopeless. Grinding through bar study and doing a job search at the same time blows donkey balls, but it can definitely pay off.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:45 am

Anyone have the new byu job bank user and pass? Lawlawland jobfind isn't working anymore for me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:09 pm

Hey guys. Completely forgot about TLS til recently, but have to say I'm glad I found this forum. I can totally empathize with the above poster. I'm at a T6, but grades are almost at the bottom of my class (I've had family drama that's been going on for a while now that first hit like a complete shitstorm 3 months before I started law school). Luckily, was able to work at law firms both my 1L and 2L summer. I even originally got an offer from my summer job. But then in October, they suddenly did a 180 and said they would not be sponsoring my visa and de facto rescinded my offer. I have been mass mailing and networking like CRAZY since then, but I have gotten close to zero response. I've been trying to keep a positive/optimistic mind about approaching job search, but April is really sucking the life out of me. I try to not think about it because I seriously feel like breaking down and crying if I even start thinking about graduation. My friends try to be supportive and say that I'll find something, but then the conversation would move on to something like bar trip or searching for an apartment near their office, and I'd naturally just shut down. I feel seriously lost and confused and frustrated and angry and depressed all the time, and it's interfering with my day to day life. Now that it's getting close to finals, I'm not even sure if I should continue with the search or just put it on hold for a little while til finals end. Anyone have advice/thoughts? (I'm also sorry for the negativity. I've been holding this in for months now...)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby lxhyss » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:43 pm

Genius wrote:im one of those ppl who graduated with no job prospect a couple of years ago. I had to MM like hell and I gotta say I got about 10/120 bites. I hear this is not too shabby for MM. If anyone needs advice on cover letter, let me know. I truly believe cover letter matters and that's probably what got me my interviews.

my quick advice is: be realistic about your chances at certain firms based on your GPA and school name.


Do you mind If I PM you? Thanks!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:21 pm

I have a question regarding mass mailing. What is the best way to approach multiple offices of the same firm. At this point, I am willing to move to wherever in the country if it means I get employed. Like, legitimately, I am willing to move to the middle of the wilderness in Alaska if a firm says they'd hire me. That being said, how do I express that I am interested in all available offices? Do I just approach the main US recruiting person? Or do I have to reach individual office separately (NY office, SF office, Chicago office, Dallas office, etc.)? I am worried about appearing to desperate (which, let's be honest, I think everyone, including the employers, know that I am, but I don't want to at least on its face look that way...). But at the same time, I don't think I'd have the time to reach EVERY single office in EVERY firm out there in the country :/ Advice?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby LibertyLady » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:12 pm

After mass mailing, attending dozens of networking events, and conducting 25 informational interviews, I finally received a job offer today as in house counsel for a company I applied to completely cold through a random hiring portal. I'm waiting to receive an email containing my formal offer and compensation details, as well as waiting to hear back from another firm, but I finally have an option!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have a question regarding mass mailing. What is the best way to approach multiple offices of the same firm. At this point, I am willing to move to wherever in the country if it means I get employed. Like, legitimately, I am willing to move to the middle of the wilderness in Alaska if a firm says they'd hire me. That being said, how do I express that I am interested in all available offices? Do I just approach the main US recruiting person? Or do I have to reach individual office separately (NY office, SF office, Chicago office, Dallas office, etc.)? I am worried about appearing to desperate (which, let's be honest, I think everyone, including the employers, know that I am, but I don't want to at least on its face look that way...). But at the same time, I don't think I'd have the time to reach EVERY single office in EVERY firm out there in the country :/ Advice?


I would email the individual offices in all the major markets (think NY, Chicago, West Coast, Boston, etc.) and for the satellite offices, just include a note to the contact person of the headquarters office that you are flexible with location and willing to relocate to other offices if there's need.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ejs2017 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys. Completely forgot about TLS til recently, but have to say I'm glad I found this forum. I can totally empathize with the above poster. I'm at a T6, but grades are almost at the bottom of my class (I've had family drama that's been going on for a while now that first hit like a complete shitstorm 3 months before I started law school). Luckily, was able to work at law firms both my 1L and 2L summer. I even originally got an offer from my summer job. But then in October, they suddenly did a 180 and said they would not be sponsoring my visa and de facto rescinded my offer. I have been mass mailing and networking like CRAZY since then, but I have gotten close to zero response. I've been trying to keep a positive/optimistic mind about approaching job search, but April is really sucking the life out of me. I try to not think about it because I seriously feel like breaking down and crying if I even start thinking about graduation. My friends try to be supportive and say that I'll find something, but then the conversation would move on to something like bar trip or searching for an apartment near their office, and I'd naturally just shut down. I feel seriously lost and confused and frustrated and angry and depressed all the time, and it's interfering with my day to day life. Now that it's getting close to finals, I'm not even sure if I should continue with the search or just put it on hold for a little while til finals end. Anyone have advice/thoughts? (I'm also sorry for the negativity. I've been holding this in for months now...)

Baby steps, my friend. You can't change the past but you can you look to the future.

First, as someone who was in your shoes you may want to back off on the job search for now. The rejections and non-responses are just going to beat your self-confidence into the ground.

As tough as it may be to be patient and to live in the present that's all you can do. Focus on finishing 3L in the most positive state of mind that you can. Then, focus on studying for, taking, and passing the bar exam in the state where you intend to practice.

Once you've taken the bar you can start focusing then on your job search. You'll probably have a hard time as employers are reluctant to take a chance on someone waiting for the bar results. Bite the bullet and move forward. Accept the rejections as simply being part of the process and keep your head up. The economy sucks for pretty much everybody. Take your friends' stories about their struggles finding an apartment near their jobs with a grain of salt. That has nothing to do with you and is no reflection on you. It WILL happen for you. Be patient.

Good luck.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:29 pm

Yeah I can definitely relate to having those uncomfortable conversations with friends, "So where are you going to be after graduation?" It's a T14 school, so many of my friends have biglaw jobs lined up. I'm shooting for public interest, and haven't applied for the bar yet since I have so many applications in different states. I'm also trying to figure out if I should move to my home state after the bar exam or if I should just stay in the state my school is located (where I want to work).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:51 pm

What kind of jobs are you all working or looking at while searching for full-time legal work?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby andythefir » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yeah I can definitely relate to having those uncomfortable conversations with friends, "So where are you going to be after graduation?" It's a T14 school, so many of my friends have biglaw jobs lined up. I'm shooting for public interest, and haven't applied for the bar yet since I have so many applications in different states. I'm also trying to figure out if I should move to my home state after the bar exam or if I should just stay in the state my school is located (where I want to work).


I'd take the UBE in the state with lowest LSAT takers. Lots of places you can get your foot in the door with bar passage anywhere, and true UBE should buy you time.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:30 pm

Two full-time term law clerk positions available in US District Court, District of New Mexico, Las Cruces. See www.nmd.uscourts.gov. I've never been to Las Cruces so I'm not sure if it's a nice place to be in, but just an opportunity to consider.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby andythefir » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Two full-time term law clerk positions available in US District Court, District of New Mexico, Las Cruces. See http://www.nmd.uscourts.gov. I've never been to Las Cruces so I'm not sure if it's a nice place to be in, but just an opportunity to consider.


Cruces is a nice town. 300k people, all the chain stores, 45 minutes away from the El Paso airport.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:27 pm

Chapman and Cutler (SF) is hiring entry-level associate attorney if anyone is interested.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:50 pm

I have a question regarding hiring "seasons". I know that for 3L job hunting, the general rule is that there is no rule; there are no time tables or schedules, and hiring happens randomly and sporadically. That being said, even within this randomness, are there some cyclical "seasons" in a sense? The reason I ask is because a friend of mine (who is also in the vale :( ) told me today that if we don't have a job by now, firms are most likely going to hold-off to hire people because they would rather wait until candidates our year pass the bar. Is this true? Are we heading into dead months? Or alternatively, does anyone know about any hiring cycles/seasons during 3L? Thank you!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:Chapman and Cutler (SF) is hiring entry-level associate attorney if anyone is interested.

Is there a posting somewhere? I don't see it on their site.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:46 am

andythefir wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Two full-time term law clerk positions available in US District Court, District of New Mexico, Las Cruces. See http://www.nmd.uscourts.gov. I've never been to Las Cruces so I'm not sure if it's a nice place to be in, but just an opportunity to consider.


Cruces is a nice town. 300k people, all the chain stores, 45 minutes away from the El Paso airport.

More like 100K people. It's not a bad town, especially for just a year or two.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby andythefir » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:I have a question regarding hiring "seasons". I know that for 3L job hunting, the general rule is that there is no rule; there are no time tables or schedules, and hiring happens randomly and sporadically. That being said, even within this randomness, are there some cyclical "seasons" in a sense? The reason I ask is because a friend of mine (who is also in the vale :( ) told me today that if we don't have a job by now, firms are most likely going to hold-off to hire people because they would rather wait until candidates our year pass the bar. Is this true? Are we heading into dead months? Or alternatively, does anyone know about any hiring cycles/seasons during 3L? Thank you!


Think about it like this: there are basically 2 kinds of employers for the purpose of hiring any kind of law student. 1 is large, with predictable turnover and financial security enough to float inefficiencies in order to acquire top talent. 2 is small, with erratic turnover, and close enough to the margins they can't let someone float without bringing in any money.

Enter 2L summer hiring. Big firms know they need talented bodies to staff the pyramid structure, and they at least get a summer's worth of contact and indoctrination to see if the prospect is worth developing. No other kind of job can have any idea what their recruiting needs will be like 2 years after when the interviews go down. In order for a firm like this to hire a 3L, they must have under-recruited for their summer program and have a screaming need. Not impossible, but why hire a 3L in April to start in October when a desperate licensed attorney can start right now? 3Ls are the worst kinds of hires because they can't help right now, you have no experience with them, and you have to train them from scratch as if they were a summer. 2Ls are dumb to hire, but top talent has leverage to insist on that kind of commitment.

Contrast with October, when a small firm that has a need can plug you right in. No dead time when you're even more worthless than a baby attorney with a bar card, no awkward employed-but-studying-for-the-bar-so-can't-really-help. If you ran a law office, why the heck would you hire a 3L? You could get them on payroll then fail the bar, which is possible with a 2L, but big firms can find uses for law grads who haven't passed the bar. 4 person divorce shop needs you right this second to get into court and sign entries of appearance.

There are some exceptions. I was myself hired in March of my 3L year to an 8ish person office that was down 3 attorneys in a perennially under-staffed part of the world. The other 2 spots didn't get filled for another 6 months because literally no resumes came in. So not impossible, but it makes sense for very few jobs.

I'm sorry you're in this predicament. It sucks. But if you're flexible, you'll find something.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:06 pm

andythefir wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a question regarding hiring "seasons". I know that for 3L job hunting, the general rule is that there is no rule; there are no time tables or schedules, and hiring happens randomly and sporadically. That being said, even within this randomness, are there some cyclical "seasons" in a sense? The reason I ask is because a friend of mine (who is also in the vale :( ) told me today that if we don't have a job by now, firms are most likely going to hold-off to hire people because they would rather wait until candidates our year pass the bar. Is this true? Are we heading into dead months? Or alternatively, does anyone know about any hiring cycles/seasons during 3L? Thank you!


Think about it like this: there are basically 2 kinds of employers for the purpose of hiring any kind of law student. 1 is large, with predictable turnover and financial security enough to float inefficiencies in order to acquire top talent. 2 is small, with erratic turnover, and close enough to the margins they can't let someone float without bringing in any money.

Enter 2L summer hiring. Big firms know they need talented bodies to staff the pyramid structure, and they at least get a summer's worth of contact and indoctrination to see if the prospect is worth developing. No other kind of job can have any idea what their recruiting needs will be like 2 years after when the interviews go down. In order for a firm like this to hire a 3L, they must have under-recruited for their summer program and have a screaming need. Not impossible, but why hire a 3L in April to start in October when a desperate licensed attorney can start right now? 3Ls are the worst kinds of hires because they can't help right now, you have no experience with them, and you have to train them from scratch as if they were a summer. 2Ls are dumb to hire, but top talent has leverage to insist on that kind of commitment.

Contrast with October, when a small firm that has a need can plug you right in. No dead time when you're even more worthless than a baby attorney with a bar card, no awkward employed-but-studying-for-the-bar-so-can't-really-help. If you ran a law office, why the heck would you hire a 3L? You could get them on payroll then fail the bar, which is possible with a 2L, but big firms can find uses for law grads who haven't passed the bar. 4 person divorce shop needs you right this second to get into court and sign entries of appearance.

There are some exceptions. I was myself hired in March of my 3L year to an 8ish person office that was down 3 attorneys in a perennially under-staffed part of the world. The other 2 spots didn't get filled for another 6 months because literally no resumes came in. So not impossible, but it makes sense for very few jobs.

I'm sorry you're in this predicament. It sucks. But if you're flexible, you'll find something.

Hi OP, here. Thank you for the summary. This unfortunately leaves me in a bit of predicament tho, because I am international and I would need to secure a job by September, or else I'd get deported. Am I out of luck? :cry:

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby andythefir » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm sorry you're in this predicament. It sucks. But if you're flexible, you'll find something.

Hi OP, here. Thank you for the summary. This unfortunately leaves me in a bit of predicament tho, because I am international and I would need to secure a job by September, or else I'd get deported. Am I out of luck? :cry:[/quote]

I'd look for the most desperate offices in desperate places. Rural mountain west DAs and PDs.




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