The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1. Assistant Property Assessment Specialist
a. Entry Level Attorney, Experienced
b. Los Angeles County, Office of the General Counsel, Office of the Assessor (Los Angeles, CA) - Los Angeles, California
c. Apply by Mar 15th



Anyone know where these postings are from?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1. Assistant Property Assessment Specialist
a. Entry Level Attorney, Experienced
b. Los Angeles County, Office of the General Counsel, Office of the Assessor (Los Angeles, CA) - Los Angeles, California
c. Apply by Mar 15th


Anyone know where these job postings are from?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Agent007 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:25 pm

Long time lurker. Those of you with depression and anxiety, what have you done that has helped?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:40 pm

Work out, go out with non-law school friends (or close law school friends who are more understanding), try to create a schedule. For me, it was the idea that I had control over my life, so staying active kept me a little bit sane (although I will admit to having days where I would just curl up in bed and do nothing cuz I was too depressed to go out...). You can do this!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:40 pm

Work out, go out with non-law school friends (or close law school friends who are more understanding), try to create a schedule. For me, it was the idea that I had control over my life, so staying active kept me a little bit sane (although I will admit to having days where I would just curl up in bed and do nothing cuz I was too depressed to go out...). You can do this!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby acr » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:47 pm

Agent007 wrote:Long time lurker. Those of you with depression and anxiety, what have you done that has helped?


What tremendously helped me was looking at everything in the big picture. Looking at it as a 'no lose' situation. Become a lawyer, great. If not, there are infinite possibilities of things to do with your life. Most people don't enjoy the practice of law anyway. Imagine yourself sitting at a desk looking at meaningless documents for the next ~40 years and ask yourself if this is really worth being depressed about.

These sort of mental exercises, in conjunction with taking my career trajectory in a different direction (i.e. learning coding while driving in my free time for Uber to save up some money), gave me a sense of purpose, direction, and enjoyment that law school never provided.

I understand this can't/won't work for everyone, but it really helped me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:35 pm

acr wrote:
Agent007 wrote:Long time lurker. Those of you with depression and anxiety, what have you done that has helped?


What tremendously helped me was looking at everything in the big picture. Looking at it as a 'no lose' situation. Become a lawyer, great. If not, there are infinite possibilities of things to do with your life. Most people don't enjoy the practice of law anyway. Imagine yourself sitting at a desk looking at meaningless documents for the next ~40 years and ask yourself if this is really worth being depressed about.

These sort of mental exercises, in conjunction with taking my career trajectory in a different direction (i.e. learning coding while driving in my free time for Uber to save up some money), gave me a sense of purpose, direction, and enjoyment that law school never provided.

I understand this can't/won't work for everyone, but it really helped me.



You mean you learned a programming language while driving? How did you do so? I have tons of time with nothing to do, so thought about learning how to code (I took AP Computer Science class way back in high school), but don't know how to get started.

More importantly, how do you get in the mindset of doing menial/low-skill jobs like driving for Uber, waitering/waitressing, being a cashier, delivering pizzas, etc?

I don't mind the actual aspect of working these part time jobs, hell it would give me something to do. It's just I get a huge feeling of depression when thinking about doing these. I went to top college, went to law school, did all these studies, spent so much money, time, and effort into my education, and now I'm an Uber driver/a cashier at Costco. I could have done this straight out of high school.
It makes me feel so pathetic that I can't help feeling like I'm the world's greatest loser.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Work out, go out with non-law school friends (or close law school friends who are more understanding), try to create a schedule. For me, it was the idea that I had control over my life, so staying active kept me a little bit sane (although I will admit to having days where I would just curl up in bed and do nothing cuz I was too depressed to go out...). You can do this!


This is good advice. I hated the feeling that I had no control over my life, that my resume was just doomed to be one in a pile of 500 even for the worst law jobs.

So while I was searching, I started playing guitar again (and really practicing and doing exercises to get better, not just fucking around when I felt depressed), joined a cover band, and joined a baseball league.

I hadn't played guitar regularly for 15 years, so when I put in the work to practice, I could really see myself getting better quickly. I took about a 5 year break from baseball, too.

I don't know why, but when you are in a helpless situation (aka one of wayyy too many excess law grads competing for a finite number of jobs), when you can find an outlet where your efforts actually do pay off, it's encouraging.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby andythefir » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
andythefir wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[



Just received an email from them, I've been dinged.

Saying this really hurts would be a massive understatement. I have nothing on the horizon, no more interviews, nothing in the pipeline. All my other applications have gone down a dark hole and disappeared.

I'm in a near full panic mode now. My money's almost run out, soon I won't be able to pay my apartment rent or pay my bills. I'm truly lost and don't know what to do at this point.


Apply to rural DA and PD jobs. I know of 4 offices that are hiring right now, and those are just the ones in my jurisdiction.


I'm waiting for a yay or ding from NM PD. This would be for an pre-bar position. Still waiting on a final decision of a tx firm.[/quote]

If you're in full panic mode and running out of money, why are you only applying to PDs, especially when there are multiple DA openings? 3rd, 6th, and 9th are all hiring.

https://www.nmbar.org/NmbarDocs/PubRes/ ... -03-21.pdf

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:11 pm

Seriously need a job after graduation, I am freaking out. Anyone know of firms in NYC/NJ area hiring for transactional work?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:22 pm

MADE IT OUT OF THE VALE!!!

Posted here a few months ago, was in a pretty dark place after getting no-offer'd at a mid size firm from the summer, wasnt getting much interviews -
was heavily drinking and feeling bad for myself and everything seemed dead. Just got an offer for my dream market- NYC- making much more than I made last summer- doing something really interesting to me. THERE IS HOPE!!!!!! LOVE YOU ALL

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Subban_Fan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:14 pm

You mean you learned a programming language while driving? How did you do so? I have tons of time with nothing to do, so thought about learning how to code (I took AP Computer Science class way back in high school), but don't know how to get started.


Not the person you're replying to, but programming lessons and tools are extremely accessible and usually free. Codeacademy is a good place to start. Free Code Camp (https://www.freecodecamp.org) is a popular one too.

If you get really good, you can compete for jobs online at HackerRank.

More importantly, how do you get in the mindset of doing menial/low-skill jobs like driving for Uber, waitering/waitressing, being a cashier, delivering pizzas, etc?

I don't mind the actual aspect of working these part time jobs, hell it would give me something to do. It's just I get a huge feeling of depression when thinking about doing these. I went to top college, went to law school, did all these studies, spent so much money, time, and effort into my education, and now I'm an Uber driver/a cashier at Costco. I could have done this straight out of high school.
It makes me feel so pathetic that I can't help feeling like I'm the world's greatest loser.


Welcome to the real world.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby acr » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:52 pm

Subban_Fan wrote:
You mean you learned a programming language while driving? How did you do so? I have tons of time with nothing to do, so thought about learning how to code (I took AP Computer Science class way back in high school), but don't know how to get started.


Not the person you're replying to, but programming lessons and tools are extremely accessible and usually free. Codeacademy is a good place to start. Free Code Camp (https://www.freecodecamp.org) is a popular one too.

If you get really good, you can compete for jobs online at HackerRank.

More importantly, how do you get in the mindset of doing menial/low-skill jobs like driving for Uber, waitering/waitressing, being a cashier, delivering pizzas, etc?

I don't mind the actual aspect of working these part time jobs, hell it would give me something to do. It's just I get a huge feeling of depression when thinking about doing these. I went to top college, went to law school, did all these studies, spent so much money, time, and effort into my education, and now I'm an Uber driver/a cashier at Costco. I could have done this straight out of high school.
It makes me feel so pathetic that I can't help feeling like I'm the world's greatest loser.


Welcome to the real world.


This is a good start. One of the things that bothered me about law school was the materialism of it all and the arrogance of my classmates/colleagues, and the constant struggle for "more success" (better firm, higher salary, law school honors, etc). I once had a corporate law class that was taught by an adjunct prof who was a big law partner at a "hot shot firm," with a wife, kids, big house in desirable school district, etc., but you could tell by listening to him/looking at him that he was dead on the inside. My pizza delivery guys seemed to be happier and enjoy life more.

You can look at menial jobs as an opportunity to humble yourself, and learn that success and happiness in life shouldn't be determined by some law firm. If you truly hate the menial job, so be it. But you can think of it as temporary, and use it as motivation to find out where you truly want to be in life and get there. Sometimes you just need a push. One of my best friends couldn't find a job for two years, was living at home with his parents, and when his parents suddenly sold the house and moved to Arizona, he had a job in a degree-related field within 2 weeks and an apartment downtown in the city.

Regarding coding, I had to change my habits and stick to a strict schedule. Come up with a plan if you're interested in doing it. But don't do programming just because it sounds like a nice alternative, you have to make sure that it gets you up in the morning and that you're truly into it or else it will turn out just like law school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ladybug1989 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:MADE IT OUT OF THE VALE!!!

Posted here a few months ago, was in a pretty dark place after getting no-offer'd at a mid size firm from the summer, wasnt getting much interviews -
was heavily drinking and feeling bad for myself and everything seemed dead. Just got an offer for my dream market- NYC- making much more than I made last summer- doing something really interesting to me. THERE IS HOPE!!!!!! LOVE YOU ALL


Congrats!! Could you PM me so I can ask about your strategies, etc?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby ladybug1989 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:MADE IT OUT OF THE VALE!!!

Posted here a few months ago, was in a pretty dark place after getting no-offer'd at a mid size firm from the summer, wasnt getting much interviews -
was heavily drinking and feeling bad for myself and everything seemed dead. Just got an offer for my dream market- NYC- making much more than I made last summer- doing something really interesting to me. THERE IS HOPE!!!!!! LOVE YOU ALL


Congrats!! Could you PM me so I can ask about your strategies, etc?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:41 pm

acr wrote:
Subban_Fan wrote:
You mean you learned a programming language while driving? How did you do so? I have tons of time with nothing to do, so thought about learning how to code (I took AP Computer Science class way back in high school), but don't know how to get started.


Not the person you're replying to, but programming lessons and tools are extremely accessible and usually free. Codeacademy is a good place to start. Free Code Camp (https://www.freecodecamp.org) is a popular one too.

If you get really good, you can compete for jobs online at HackerRank.

More importantly, how do you get in the mindset of doing menial/low-skill jobs like driving for Uber, waitering/waitressing, being a cashier, delivering pizzas, etc?

I don't mind the actual aspect of working these part time jobs, hell it would give me something to do. It's just I get a huge feeling of depression when thinking about doing these. I went to top college, went to law school, did all these studies, spent so much money, time, and effort into my education, and now I'm an Uber driver/a cashier at Costco. I could have done this straight out of high school.
It makes me feel so pathetic that I can't help feeling like I'm the world's greatest loser.


Welcome to the real world.


This is a good start. One of the things that bothered me about law school was the materialism of it all and the arrogance of my classmates/colleagues, and the constant struggle for "more success" (better firm, higher salary, law school honors, etc). I once had a corporate law class that was taught by an adjunct prof who was a big law partner at a "hot shot firm," with a wife, kids, big house in desirable school district, etc., but you could tell by listening to him/looking at him that he was dead on the inside. My pizza delivery guys seemed to be happier and enjoy life more.

You can look at menial jobs as an opportunity to humble yourself, and learn that success and happiness in life shouldn't be determined by some law firm. If you truly hate the menial job, so be it. But you can think of it as temporary, and use it as motivation to find out where you truly want to be in life and get there. Sometimes you just need a push. One of my best friends couldn't find a job for two years, was living at home with his parents, and when his parents suddenly sold the house and moved to Arizona, he had a job in a degree-related field within 2 weeks and an apartment downtown in the city.

Regarding coding, I had to change my habits and stick to a strict schedule. Come up with a plan if you're interested in doing it. But don't do programming just because it sounds like a nice alternative, you have to make sure that it gets you up in the morning and that you're truly into it or else it will turn out just like law school.


acr wrote:
Subban_Fan wrote:
You mean you learned a programming language while driving? How did you do so? I have tons of time with nothing to do, so thought about learning how to code (I took AP Computer Science class way back in high school), but don't know how to get started.


Not the person you're replying to, but programming lessons and tools are extremely accessible and usually free. Codeacademy is a good place to start. Free Code Camp (https://www.freecodecamp.org) is a popular one too.

If you get really good, you can compete for jobs online at HackerRank.

More importantly, how do you get in the mindset of doing menial/low-skill jobs like driving for Uber, waitering/waitressing, being a cashier, delivering pizzas, etc?

I don't mind the actual aspect of working these part time jobs, hell it would give me something to do. It's just I get a huge feeling of depression when thinking about doing these. I went to top college, went to law school, did all these studies, spent so much money, time, and effort into my education, and now I'm an Uber driver/a cashier at Costco. I could have done this straight out of high school.
It makes me feel so pathetic that I can't help feeling like I'm the world's greatest loser.


Welcome to the real world.


This is a good start. One of the things that bothered me about law school was the materialism of it all and the arrogance of my classmates/colleagues, and the constant struggle for "more success" (better firm, higher salary, law school honors, etc). I once had a corporate law class that was taught by an adjunct prof who was a big law partner at a "hot shot firm," with a wife, kids, big house in desirable school district, etc., but you could tell by listening to him/looking at him that he was dead on the inside. My pizza delivery guys seemed to be happier and enjoy life more.

You can look at menial jobs as an opportunity to humble yourself, and learn that success and happiness in life shouldn't be determined by some law firm. If you truly hate the menial job, so be it. But you can think of it as temporary, and use it as motivation to find out where you truly want to be in life and get there. Sometimes you just need a push. One of my best friends couldn't find a job for two years, was living at home with his parents, and when his parents suddenly sold the house and moved to Arizona, he had a job in a degree-related field within 2 weeks and an apartment downtown in the city.

Regarding coding, I had to change my habits and stick to a strict schedule. Come up with a plan if you're interested in doing it. But don't do programming just because it sounds like a nice alternative, you have to make sure that it gets you up in the morning and that you're truly into it or else it will turn out just like law school.


From my experience, many people who go to law school or grad school believe that because they have a graduate degree, they deserve a higher paying job. Even though their actual marketable skills in the work world is not near as valuable as they want to believe. The self-entitlement becomes harmful to their own job prospects.

The poster thinks he's too good to be a waiter or Uber driver because he went to college and has a JD. Hate to break it to him/her, there are plenty of waiters, Baristas, Uber drivers and Costco cashiers with graduate degrees. He/she isn't "special" because they went went to college then got their JD. I can already imagine them just being an annoying ahole telling coworkers how to do their jobs better because they have a degree. Further harming their job prospects.

I live in a rich area known for its billionaires/multi-millionaires. The richest people I know don't tend to have graduate degrees - some are even college dropouts. They just tend to have very entrepreneurial mindsets that run opposite to most people here (they relish taking risks most people here would never take). They definitely don't think a $180,000, 60-70 hour a week job is the end all, be all.

As for programming, there's a growing amount of law students who seem to suddenly have interest in it when they have trouble finding employment, when they had 0 interest in it before. I can see computer science classes/coding bootcamps becoming the new law school in the next decade. They see the free cafeterias, cafes, table tennis lounges, video game rooms, on-site laundry and bike co-ops and they think it's their chance at $$$$$ like law school was.

Also, if you did well in your liberal arts classes in college and did well in law school, doesn't mean you'll do well in programming. You'll probably be in a for a surprise.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:18 pm

More importantly, how do you get in the mindset of doing menial/low-skill jobs like driving for Uber, waitering/waitressing, being a cashier, delivering pizzas, etc?

I don't mind the actual aspect of working these part time jobs, hell it would give me something to do. It's just I get a huge feeling of depression when thinking about doing these. I went to top college, went to law school, did all these studies, spent so much money, time, and effort into my education, and now I'm an Uber driver/a cashier at Costco. I could have done this straight out of high school.
It makes me feel so pathetic that I can't help feeling like I'm the world's greatest loser.


From my experience, many people who go to law school or grad school believe that because they have a graduate degree, they deserve a higher paying job. Even though their actual marketable skills in the work world is not near as valuable as they want to believe. The self-entitlement becomes harmful to their own job prospects.

The poster thinks he's too good to be a waiter or Uber driver because he went to college and has a JD. Hate to break it to him/her, there are plenty of waiters, Baristas, Uber drivers and Costco cashiers with graduate degrees. He/she isn't "special" because they went went to college then got their JD. I can already imagine them just being an annoying ahole telling coworkers how to do their jobs better because they have a degree. Further harming their job prospects.

I live in a rich area known for its billionaires/multi-millionaires. The richest people I know don't tend to have graduate degrees - some are even college dropouts. They just tend to have very entrepreneurial mindsets that run opposite to most people here (they relish taking risks most people here would never take). They definitely don't think a $180,000, 60-70 hour a week job is the end all, be all.

As for programming, there's a growing amount of law students who seem to suddenly have interest in it when they have trouble finding employment, when they had 0 interest in it before. I can see computer science classes/coding bootcamps becoming the new law school in the next decade. They see the free cafeterias, cafes, table tennis lounges, video game rooms, on-site laundry and bike co-ops and they think it's their chance at $$$$$ like law school was.

Also, if you did well in your liberal arts classes in college and did well in law school, doesn't mean you'll do well in programming. You'll probably be in a for a surprise.



I was the original poster. Thanks for your insight, it was helpful. I don't think "Im too good" to be a Uber driver or a waiter or a cashier or whatever. I tend to be humble and I have never looked down on the people in these sectors.
My problem, I guess, is the sinking feeling of regret and heartache, and the subsequent depression when I think about doing these. I keep thinking I should have just done these jobs straight out of college or high school, and I would probably be way better off financially and emotionally at this point. That's when the awful feeling of regret creeps in.
After "wasting" a decade of my life in school (also went to different grad school in addition to law school), I feel like I have truly screwed myself in getting started in life, with my being 30 going on 31 years old.
Lot of my friends from high school and college have basically done this, and they seem to be living comfortably and are productive members of the society. I'm about a decade late into the game... day late and dollar short... as usual for me.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:47 pm

I keep thinking I should have just done these jobs straight out of college or high school, and I would probably be way better off financially and emotionally at this point. That's when the awful feeling of regret creeps in.
After "wasting" a decade of my life in school (also went to different grad school in addition to law school), I feel like I have truly screwed myself in getting started in life, with my being 30 going on 31 years old.

Lot of my friends from high school and college have basically done this, and they seem to be living comfortably and are productive members of the society. I'm about a decade late into the game... day late and dollar short... as usual for me.



You're in the same boat as thousands of other people who went to grad school to get their Master's or Doctorate in a field that's not heavily valued by the market. So you can separate yourself from these people by taking action with your life and not dwelling in regret.

One thing that's not often discussed on TLS is the value of your degree years after graduation in a non-related field. Say you do the logical thing and take a temp/contractor job at a Fortune 500 company. Say you work your ass off for a year and get offered full time. 2-3 years, when a better position opens up, your degree will help if it comes along with work experience. But that's not going to come just because you went to a good college or law school.

A lot of people who hire at these companies want to see work ethic, and school really doesn't show that, to a lot of people hiring it shows the exact opposite. If the degrees comes with a few years of work experience where you change that narrative, it helps a lot.

I've seen someone go from doc review, to paralegal, to in-house attorney at a Fortune 500 tech company. There are plenty of people with JDs, from meh to bad schools that have good jobs at large companies in project management, H.R., recruiting, compliance etc.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby mrsmeeseeks » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:47 pm

I made an account to reply to the original poster. I graduated from a T6 in 2014, probably slightly below median grades in a major market. I graduated without a job. I went to one of the best law schools in the country and I graduated from college summa cum laude. It was shocking to me. For the first time, I really felt failure. I felt like a failure. I was unemployed for 8 months. I went through the depression, drinking, agonizing over money and loans. It was dark.

I had that entitled law school mentality. I avoided a law school fellowship because I felt like it was below me. I didn't reach out to my network because I was both too ashamed and too proud. When it seemed like I'd have to move back home, as low as I felt it could get, I finally started asking everyone everywhere. I checked back in with career services, nagged all my contacts, and while I had been applying to jobs actively, started applying for the type of legal work and non-legal work I felt before was beneath me.

Two weeks later I had a legal fellowship. I understand that not all law schools can fund a fellowship, but if yours can, I highly recommend it. It was dirt money, but within 6 months, someone at the fellowship passed along my resume to someone at a state agency. I got a job with the state, at first making shit money, and then rapidly gained responsibility. I followed responsibility, and not money, and now I work an important and exciting legal job making six figures within the same state agency. I can say with confidence that I would do it all over again, the unemployment and the hit to my loan repayment and the shame and embarrassment, every minute of it, to be where I am.

Unemployment taught me a lot. I learned to be bold and advocate for myself. I had a taste of what it felt like to have nothing left to lose, and I think that made me less fearful and more grateful for what I did have. Within a year, I asked my boss for a promotion because I felt I earned one. I've become more comfortable with risk taking in order to advance my career and grow my legal skills. Because I know I survived unemployment, I know could survive it again, with 3 years of practice under my belt, and I'd be okay. Because I am okay. I am okay with myself because I had to learn to accept myself when I wasn't the best person I wanted to be.

Unemployment taught me how to be kinder to others, particularly the legal interns I've worked with. When my friends and colleagues experience career disappointments, I don't jeer. I think that makes me a better person than I might have been, because I think the overachiever I was before law school would have seen misfortune as weakness. I believe networking comes more easily and organically to me now because I think I am better at relying on kindness than credentials to see the people around me. I have a point of view and my stretch of unemployment helped shape that point of view in positive ways. I definitely did not expect that when I was living through it.

This is long, and it definitely is gross patting of myself on the back. But I really hope you take away life is, literally, the long game. To be the hero of your own story, you are going to have losses along the way for the wins to mean anything at all. It absolutely and completely sucks to be in the vale. But the vale is also a place where you can confront the best and worst things about yourself and come out stronger.

And in terms of practical advice, there are opportunities in state government for inexperienced attorneys. I really recommend learning your state's open records act, because that's often what the most junior attorney in a state agency will work in, and understanding the act can set you apart from other applicants for jobs. Some administrative law judge positions are also available to junior attorneys.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:54 am

andythefir wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
andythefir wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[




Apply to rural DA and PD jobs. I know of 4 offices that are hiring right now, and those are just the ones in my jurisdiction.


I'm waiting for a yay or ding from NM PD. This would be for an pre-bar position. Still waiting on a final decision of a tx firm.


If you're in full panic mode and running out of money, why are you only applying to PDs, especially when there are multiple DA openings? 3rd, 6th, and 9th are all hiring.

https://www.nmbar.org/NmbarDocs/PubRes/ ... -03-21.pdf


Andy, that was a different poster. I'm still 3L, but I am applying broadly. The DA doesn't hire pre bar according to that magazine article. I've still got to take it in July.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:01 am

When one gets politely dinged at a small immigration/SSA firm, yet the hiring manager/partner in the same email states they have recommended me to other firms in the area is that just a polite ding or should I actually keep in touch with this person?

paperrev

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby paperrev » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:When one gets politely dinged at a small immigration/SSA firm, yet the hiring manager/partner in the same email states they have recommended me to other firms in the area is that just a polite ding or should I actually keep in touch with this person?

I'd keep in touch, but in a not too pushy way. You never know!

Bla Bla Bla Blah

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bla Bla Bla Blah » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:52 am

mrsmeeseeks wrote:I made an account to reply to the original poster. I graduated from a T6 in 2014, probably slightly below median grades in a major market. I graduated without a job. I went to one of the best law schools in the country and I graduated from college summa cum laude. It was shocking to me. For the first time, I really felt failure. I felt like a failure. I was unemployed for 8 months. I went through the depression, drinking, agonizing over money and loans. It was dark.

I had that entitled law school mentality. I avoided a law school fellowship because I felt like it was below me. I didn't reach out to my network because I was both too ashamed and too proud. When it seemed like I'd have to move back home, as low as I felt it could get, I finally started asking everyone everywhere. I checked back in with career services, nagged all my contacts, and while I had been applying to jobs actively, started applying for the type of legal work and non-legal work I felt before was beneath me.

Two weeks later I had a legal fellowship. I understand that not all law schools can fund a fellowship, but if yours can, I highly recommend it. It was dirt money, but within 6 months, someone at the fellowship passed along my resume to someone at a state agency. I got a job with the state, at first making shit money, and then rapidly gained responsibility. I followed responsibility, and not money, and now I work an important and exciting legal job making six figures within the same state agency. I can say with confidence that I would do it all over again, the unemployment and the hit to my loan repayment and the shame and embarrassment, every minute of it, to be where I am.

Unemployment taught me a lot. I learned to be bold and advocate for myself. I had a taste of what it felt like to have nothing left to lose, and I think that made me less fearful and more grateful for what I did have. Within a year, I asked my boss for a promotion because I felt I earned one. I've become more comfortable with risk taking in order to advance my career and grow my legal skills. Because I know I survived unemployment, I know could survive it again, with 3 years of practice under my belt, and I'd be okay. Because I am okay. I am okay with myself because I had to learn to accept myself when I wasn't the best person I wanted to be.

Unemployment taught me how to be kinder to others, particularly the legal interns I've worked with. When my friends and colleagues experience career disappointments, I don't jeer. I think that makes me a better person than I might have been, because I think the overachiever I was before law school would have seen misfortune as weakness. I believe networking comes more easily and organically to me now because I think I am better at relying on kindness than credentials to see the people around me. I have a point of view and my stretch of unemployment helped shape that point of view in positive ways. I definitely did not expect that when I was living through it.

This is long, and it definitely is gross patting of myself on the back. But I really hope you take away life is, literally, the long game. To be the hero of your own story, you are going to have losses along the way for the wins to mean anything at all. It absolutely and completely sucks to be in the vale. But the vale is also a place where you can confront the best and worst things about yourself and come out stronger.

And in terms of practical advice, there are opportunities in state government for inexperienced attorneys. I really recommend learning your state's open records act, because that's often what the most junior attorney in a state agency will work in, and understanding the act can set you apart from other applicants for jobs. Some administrative law judge positions are also available to junior attorneys.


Thank you for sharing this. I wish that there was more of this going around the TLS forum because there is too much of the kind of advice that leads to the soul crushing, hopeless, dark experience that you referred to. And this is totally unnecessary. There are opportunities out there if we aren't too shell shocked from the law school experience to reach out and get them... which is exactly what 100 percent of us alpha nerds would have done prior to the law school experience in the first place. It's just that this self (and, to some extent, legal peer) imposed shame takes over. I became paralyzed by it for a time. No one else outside of myself, really, felt that I had anything to be ashamed about. And in fact, quite the opposite. I found help among my legal peers when I finally shed the false sense of despair and began reaching out... being my old proactive self again.

So what changed? I think what changed is that we were all put through the grinder in a prestige-comparison driven training ground. I know that I forgot a bit of the go-getter person I was prior to my perceived post-law school failure... one similar in experience, emotionally at least, to yours mrsmeeseeks.

And even still I feel trapped by the "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. This to the point where I won't share which of the Anon stories in this thread is mine. This even after altering a couple of the non-material facts in that story just so that some of the people who graduated with me, who I know still lurk, won't connect the dots. This though I'm hiding behind a user account that adds another layer of anonymity to who I am even had I not used Anon to post my story. Haha, how mental is that?!

I will say that I dug myself out of what once seemed a desperate hole. It was very nontraditional in approach and due to uncontrollable life circumstances. But it put me back in the industry, and has allowed me to lateral into the IP firm I now work for. Since I work remotely (most of the time) I'm also able to be a solid full-time dad for my kids, which is absolutely everything to me.

I'm proud of you for sharing this. I wish there was more of this kind of gross back patting and openness out there. The fact that there isn't is what makes so many of us feel isolated and hopeless... even though there are plenty of examples of people who, just like before law school, break out of their self-imposed funk eventually and realize that they can find the success they deserve after obtaining such a high stakes education.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Dyslectric » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:30 am

Could use some advice here - sorry if I come off as naive and rambling, but my mind is all over the place right now. I still do not know where to sign up take the bar and have no job prospects. I'm a K-JD 3L at an upper T2, in a Midwestern state with a mid-sized market that I have no intention on staying in (I know, I should have retaken), and the bar applications for my law school's state have already closed even if I wanted to stay. Stats: upper 1/3 grades, got a note published, few CALIs, no moot court / mock trial / law review. I want to end up in Chicago or New York City, but my school has limited pull to both cities. I have an extensive background in real estate, and ideally would like to end up working in that area. I have some legal connections to my home state (another Midwest state), but I've reached out to every one, and so far no dice. So, I'm basically deciding between the New York bar, Illinois bar, and my home state's bar.

I have been non-stop applying to jobs and reaching out to firms since last August. My last two interviews were in October, one at an AmLaw 100 firm in Chicago in October, which I sadly did not get. One was for a midsize firm in my home state, which went really well. I was told by that midsize firm that they wanted me to the be their associate if they decide to hire one, and would get back to me by January. I followed-up four times and did not hear back. At this point, I assume that I do not have the position and they're no longer interested.

I'm torn. I feel like I am slightly more likely to land a job in my home state because I grew up there, went to undergrad there, worked my 2L summer in-house there in law school, and employers would recognize the real estate companies I have worked at there. However, I was pretty done with that state when I left it, was pretty miserable during my law school summer there, and told myself that the only way I would go back was with a job offer before graduation. I am petrified by litigation (really, really anxious at the thought of oral argument), and would be much more comfortable in a transactional, compliance, or JD-preferred gig. I have reached out to literally every single firm with any type of transactional practice in the state, and although a few seemed interested, they either were not hiring outside their summer class or wanted me to check back later in the fall to see "if their hiring needs change." The idea of taking my home state's bar, moving back in with my parents, being unemployed for an extended period of time, only to eventually settle with a really low-paying few-attorney plaintiff's side PI or insurance defense firm way out in the suburbs haunts me, and has caused me to slip into a bit of depression these past few months, because it seems inevitable.

Would I be a fool to take the Illinois or New York bar? I have generated some interest on post-grad school-funded fellowships in both cities, and am confident I could easily secure one (school only provides a few thousand $ in funding for two months of work). I would try to network my ass off during the fellowship, and have a few friends in both cities who would let me pull up an air mattress in their apartments and pay cheap rent. Chicago would possibly be a better option for me because it's cheaper and have more friends / business connections there, also driving distance from home for family's sake, but I'm attracted to the UBE aspect of New York (where I could continue applying to employers all over the country). I know that I would be happy in either city, and my only real professional goal has been to land a position where I can afford to live in a big city. I'd appreciate anybody's thoughts

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:23 pm

Dyslectric wrote:Could use some advice here - sorry if I come off as naive and rambling, but my mind is all over the place right now. I still do not know where to sign up take the bar and have no job prospects. I'm a K-JD 3L at an upper T2, in a Midwestern state with a mid-sized market that I have no intention on staying in (I know, I should have retaken), and the bar applications for my law school's state have already closed even if I wanted to stay. Stats: upper 1/3 grades, got a note published, few CALIs, no moot court / mock trial / law review. I want to end up in Chicago or New York City, but my school has limited pull to both cities. I have an extensive background in real estate, and ideally would like to end up working in that area. I have some legal connections to my home state (another Midwest state), but I've reached out to every one, and so far no dice. So, I'm basically deciding between the New York bar, Illinois bar, and my home state's bar.

I have been non-stop applying to jobs and reaching out to firms since last August. My last two interviews were in October, one at an AmLaw 100 firm in Chicago in October, which I sadly did not get. One was for a midsize firm in my home state, which went really well. I was told by that midsize firm that they wanted me to the be their associate if they decide to hire one, and would get back to me by January. I followed-up four times and did not hear back. At this point, I assume that I do not have the position and they're no longer interested.

I'm torn. I feel like I am slightly more likely to land a job in my home state because I grew up there, went to undergrad there, worked my 2L summer in-house there in law school, and employers would recognize the real estate companies I have worked at there. However, I was pretty done with that state when I left it, was pretty miserable during my law school summer there, and told myself that the only way I would go back was with a job offer before graduation. I am petrified by litigation (really, really anxious at the thought of oral argument), and would be much more comfortable in a transactional, compliance, or JD-preferred gig. I have reached out to literally every single firm with any type of transactional practice in the state, and although a few seemed interested, they either were not hiring outside their summer class or wanted me to check back later in the fall to see "if their hiring needs change." The idea of taking my home state's bar, moving back in with my parents, being unemployed for an extended period of time, only to eventually settle with a really low-paying few-attorney plaintiff's side PI or insurance defense firm way out in the suburbs haunts me, and has caused me to slip into a bit of depression these past few months, because it seems inevitable.

Would I be a fool to take the Illinois or New York bar? I have generated some interest on post-grad school-funded fellowships in both cities, and am confident I could easily secure one (school only provides a few thousand $ in funding for two months of work). I would try to network my ass off during the fellowship, and have a few friends in both cities who would let me pull up an air mattress in their apartments and pay cheap rent. Chicago would possibly be a better option for me because it's cheaper and have more friends / business connections there, also driving distance from home for family's sake, but I'm attracted to the UBE aspect of New York (where I could continue applying to employers all over the country). I know that I would be happy in either city, and my only real professional goal has been to land a position where I can afford to live in a big city. I'd appreciate anybody's thoughts

I think given your situation, Illinois might be better. Geographic proximity and cheaper cost of living. Plus, I don't think New York is that huge of a draw if the only reason you're taking it is because of UBE. I graduated last year, am admitted to the NY bar, and I'm still looking.



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