Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

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grrrstick
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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby grrrstick » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:14 am

NYC2014 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:at the risk of outing myself I am straight, white, average height, male. sup bro.


All joking aside, the amount of blatant, overt discrimination in law firm hiring is outrageous. I really feel like I've overcome strong institutional adversity by succeeding as a straight white male.


Try to troll a little better. I give you a C-.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 am

im like top 13.64% at UT, a total qt, and i went like 3/26 at OCI.

idgaf. GL all 8)

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:20 am

grrrstick wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I sold myself towards general corporate.


I hear this from people, and I never know what it means. Did you tell them you want transactional work generally? Or do you mean governance/securities/m&a/finance? Do the firms you were interviewing at split up corporate practice areas, and if so, do you think it hurt you that all you could say was you wanted general corporate?


Nice loaded question. I said I wanted to do M&A, was interested in reading about deals, learning about structures. Pretty lame right.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:im like top 13.64% at UT, a total qt, and i went like 3/26 at OCI.

idgaf. GL all 8)


All you need is one :lol:

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby dood » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:43 am

Flips88 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:- failutre to show enthusiasm for the firm. Enthusiasm is really important. Not necessarily rah rah. But I think you need to convey the point: "you're my #1 choice and I would definitely work here if you gave me an offer."

Just gonna say this isn't the best advice. I did it for my #1 choice at OCI and didn't even get a callback. Not sure if that was the reason but it can either make you look desperate or maybe even presumptuous


u cant say "u're my #1 choice" bc it does look desperate, maybe presumptuous, and mostly just weird (is that what you say to every firm?). but enthusiasm is important - just keep it normal, like telling them u're "really interested b/c xyz"

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:at the risk of outing myself I am straight, white, average height, male. sup bro.


Average appearance and build too? I hate to say it but these people see dozens of your ilk coming in. This probably hurts if you can't stand out in another way.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:I consider myself a handsome guy. ;)

Social skills are fine. Probably better than most people here. Though I'm somewhat soft-spoken and don't follow sports (which possibly hurt me at one particular callback dinner).


Keep in mind that you might be wrong on both counts here

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I consider myself a handsome guy. ;)

Social skills are fine. Probably better than most people here. Though I'm somewhat soft-spoken and don't follow sports (which possibly hurt me at one particular callback dinner).


Keep in mind that you might be wrong on both counts here


Why would I keep that in mind? Like I give a shit about how some nerdy lawyer evaluates my social skills and looks? Or you, a random person on TLS?

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I consider myself a handsome guy. ;)

Social skills are fine. Probably better than most people here. Though I'm somewhat soft-spoken and don't follow sports (which possibly hurt me at one particular callback dinner).


Keep in mind that you might be wrong on both counts here


Why would I keep that in mind? Like I give a shit about how some nerdy lawyer evaluates my social skills and looks? Or you, a random person on TLS?


Maybe you should give a shit since those nerdy lawyers give out the jerbs

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:31 am

dood wrote:
Flips88 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:- failutre to show enthusiasm for the firm. Enthusiasm is really important. Not necessarily rah rah. But I think you need to convey the point: "you're my #1 choice and I would definitely work here if you gave me an offer."

Just gonna say this isn't the best advice. I did it for my #1 choice at OCI and didn't even get a callback. Not sure if that was the reason but it can either make you look desperate or maybe even presumptuous


u cant say "u're my #1 choice" bc it does look desperate, maybe presumptuous, and mostly just weird (is that what you say to every firm?). but enthusiasm is important - just keep it normal, like telling them u're "really interested b/c xyz"


I do not recommend actually saying "you're my #1." But I wish I showed more enthusiasm and gave off the impression to each firm that they were my number 1.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I consider myself a handsome guy. ;)

Social skills are fine. Probably better than most people here. Though I'm somewhat soft-spoken and don't follow sports (which possibly hurt me at one particular callback dinner).


Keep in mind that you might be wrong on both counts here


Why would I keep that in mind? Like I give a shit about how some nerdy lawyer evaluates my social skills and looks? Or you, a random person on TLS?


Maybe you should give a shit since those nerdy lawyers give out the jerbs


Thought about that; still don't give a shit.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:06 am

Then you have your answer.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:Then you have your answer.


The answer to what?

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:im like top 13.64% at UT, a total qt, and i went like 3/26 at OCI.

idgaf. GL all 8)


Jesus I'm sorry to hear that. Did you only bid on Dallas or another smaller market? To 0ls reading this thread, I think this guy's experience was unusual.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:48 am

I'm basically a clone of the OP except at UT on Law Review, and I went 1/29 (native Texan, bid mostly on Houston with some Dallas). I got some feedback from a Dallas firm which basically said they liked me, but they didn't think I had a genuine interest in working for them. I did not sell my interest in firms. The reason is because the CSO told me not to express interest in a practice area even if the firm is known for this. "It's not safe because you never know where they're hiring," said a member of the CSO repeatedly. This advice is complete bullshit, the person who said it should be fired, especially someone with strong and relevant work experience like myself. That basically hamstrung my ability to sell my interest in any firm because it's very hard for a 2L to distinguish firms otherwise (I have no feel for, nor do I give a fuck about "firm culture"), and I'm a concrete thinker who can't talk about abstractions like the "practice of law" without reference to something concrete like a practice area. I actually have experience in bankruptcy and capital markets, so I ought to have emphasized my interest in these at firms that had those practice areas.

What's funny is I worked with the CSO for weeks on prepping for interviews, and it took 5 minutes of practicing with a former member of the hiring committee to narrow down my problem (lack of enthusiasm for the firm and the practice of law - caused by my reluctance to talk about practice areas). I am going to print out some emails and talk to the new Dean prior to withdrawing about my awful experience with the CSO (assuming my one callbacks doesn't turn into an offer, though it very well might now that I've narrowed down the problem). Hopefully, he can make some phone calls to help me get something for the summer, so I don't have to withdraw. I have a full-ride and can quit and go on Above the Law any time with 0 consequences.

I think the behavior of the CSO in this instance amounts to professional incompetence. Also, the fact that they don't publish callback statistics like just about every other law school does. I hope Dean Farnsworth fires a bunch of the CSO just like he did Georges Cafe.

The tone of this post has nothing to do with why I struck out (someone who talks like this probably would strike out, though, so don't do it during OCI). It does probably sound entitled and arrogant, but that is because I am genuinely pissed at the moment, and most of my friends don't know either my grades or the fact that I'm on Law Review. The only reason I publicize these things is to give context. I was resigned for a long time to the fact that I struck out due to my own deficiencies. I did not become truly pissed until I found out it was a totally correctable error and due to bad advice from the CSO (maybe good advice for a K-JD, whom they are used to advising, but I think most firms would expect someone with 4 years of relevant work experience similar to some common practice areas to have some focus, so it doesn't just look like I went to law school and applied to firms on a whim).
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm basically a clone of the OP except at UT on Law Review, and I went 1/29 (native Texan, bid mostly on Houston with some Dallas). I got some feedback from a Dallas firm which basically said they liked me, but they didn't think I had a genuine interest in working for them. I did not sell my interest in firms. The reason is because the CSO told me not to express interest in a practice area even if the firm is known for this. "It's not safe because you never know where they're hiring," said a member of the CSO repeatedly. This advice is complete bullshit, the person who said it should be fired, especially someone with strong and relevant work experience like myself. That basically hamstrung my ability to sell my interest in any firm because it's very hard for a 2L to distinguish firms otherwise (I have no feel for, nor do I give a fuck about "firm culture"), and I'm a concrete thinker who can't talk about abstractions like the "practice of law" without reference to something concrete like a practice area. I actually have experience in bankruptcy and capital markets, so I ought to have emphasized my interest in these at firms that had those practice areas.

What's funny is I worked with the CSO for weeks on prepping for interviews, and it took 5 minutes of practicing with a former member of the hiring committee to narrow down my problem (lack of enthusiasm for the firm and the practice of law - caused by my reluctance to talk about practice areas). I am going to print out some emails and talk to the new Dean prior to withdrawing about my awful experience with the CSO (assuming my one callbacks doesn't turn into an offer, though it very well might now that I've narrowed down the problem). Hopefully, he can make some phone calls. I have a full-ride and can quit and go on Above the Law any time with 0 consequences.

I think the behavior of the CSO in this instance amounts to professional incompetence. Also, the fact that they don't publish callback statistics like just about every other law school does. I hope Dean Farnsworth fires a bunch of the CSO just like he did Georges Cafe.


Wow that's awful. I think I know which CSO person that was. s/he gives terrible advice. If you'd like, PM me your one CB. If I know the hiring partner i'll put in a good word.
Last edited by nonprofit-prophet on Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:58 am

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I hate to say it but in my experience talking with friends it seems like schools outside the T14 tend to have poor career services offices (with exceptions of course) which I find completely amazing. I realize this is UT so it's perhaps even more inexcusable. At my T14 I think we all owe career services our lives and they do an amazing fucking job
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:59 am

nonprofit-prophet wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm basically a clone of the OP except at UT on Law Review, and I went 1/29 (native Texan, bid mostly on Houston with some Dallas). I got some feedback from a Dallas firm which basically said they liked me, but they didn't think I had a genuine interest in working for them. I did not sell my interest in firms. The reason is because the CSO told me not to express interest in a practice area even if the firm is known for this. "It's not safe because you never know where they're hiring," said a member of the CSO repeatedly. This advice is complete bullshit, the person who said it should be fired, especially someone with strong and relevant work experience like myself. That basically hamstrung my ability to sell my interest in any firm because it's very hard for a 2L to distinguish firms otherwise (I have no feel for, nor do I give a fuck about "firm culture"), and I'm a concrete thinker who can't talk about abstractions like the "practice of law" without reference to something concrete like a practice area. I actually have experience in bankruptcy and capital markets, so I ought to have emphasized my interest in these at firms that had those practice areas.

What's funny is I worked with the CSO for weeks on prepping for interviews, and it took 5 minutes of practicing with a former member of the hiring committee to narrow down my problem (lack of enthusiasm for the firm and the practice of law - caused by my reluctance to talk about practice areas). I am going to print out some emails and talk to the new Dean prior to withdrawing about my awful experience with the CSO (assuming my one callbacks doesn't turn into an offer, though it very well might now that I've narrowed down the problem). Hopefully, he can make some phone calls. I have a full-ride and can quit and go on Above the Law any time with 0 consequences.

I think the behavior of the CSO in this instance amounts to professional incompetence. Also, the fact that they don't publish callback statistics like just about every other law school does. I hope Dean Farnsworth fires a bunch of the CSO just like he did Georges Cafe.


Wow that's awful. I think I know which CSO person that was. s/he gives terrible advice. If you'd like, PM me you're one CB. If I know the hiring partner i'll put in a good word.


I'd rather not out myself since we will meet tomorrow, I'm sure. The firms is a California firm. Aren't you mostly familiar with Texas firms, or do you know some large Bay Area firms too?

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm basically a clone of the OP except at UT on Law Review, and I went 1/29 (native Texan, bid mostly on Houston with some Dallas). I got some feedback from a Dallas firm which basically said they liked me, but they didn't think I had a genuine interest in working for them. I did not sell my interest in firms. The reason is because the CSO told me not to express interest in a practice area even if the firm is known for this. "It's not safe because you never know where they're hiring," said a member of the CSO repeatedly. This advice is complete bullshit, the person who said it should be fired, especially someone with strong and relevant work experience like myself. That basically hamstrung my ability to sell my interest in any firm because it's very hard for a 2L to distinguish firms otherwise (I have no feel for, nor do I give a fuck about "firm culture"), and I'm a concrete thinker who can't talk about abstractions like the "practice of law" without reference to something concrete like a practice area. I actually have experience in bankruptcy and capital markets, so I ought to have emphasized my interest in these at firms that had those practice areas.

What's funny is I worked with the CSO for weeks on prepping for interviews, and it took 5 minutes of practicing with a former member of the hiring committee to narrow down my problem (lack of enthusiasm for the firm and the practice of law - caused by my reluctance to talk about practice areas). I am going to print out some emails and talk to the new Dean prior to withdrawing about my awful experience with the CSO (assuming my one callbacks doesn't turn into an offer, though it very well might now that I've narrowed down the problem). Hopefully, he can make some phone calls. I have a full-ride and can quit and go on Above the Law any time with 0 consequences.

I think the behavior of the CSO in this instance amounts to professional incompetence. Also, the fact that they don't publish callback statistics like just about every other law school does. I hope Dean Farnsworth fires a bunch of the CSO just like he did Georges Cafe.


Wow that's awful. I think I know which CSO person that was. s/he gives terrible advice. If you'd like, PM me you're one CB. If I know the hiring partner i'll put in a good word.


I'd rather not out myself since we will meet tomorrow, I'm sure. The firms is a California firm. Aren't you mostly familiar with Texas firms, or do you know some large Bay Area firms too?


Yea, sorry I can't help with california at all. Good luck! Your background is impressive. Most 2Ls have no idea what the capital markets practice group even does. As a side note, make sure you pretend to care about culture if the firm cares about it. I can think of multiple firms in TX that would auto ding you if they didn't think you were a culture fit. Good firms too.

See you saturday

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I hate to say it but in my experience talking with friends it seems like schools outside the T14 tend to have poor career services offices (with exceptions of course) which I find completely amazing. I realize this is UT so it's perhaps even more inexcusable. At my T14 I think we all owe career services our lives and they do an amazing fucking job

At my T2, CSO is largely made of former students who struck out years ago at finding a legal job and remained employed with the school after graduation.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. I hate to say it but in my experience talking with friends it seems like schools outside the T14 tend to have poor career services offices (with exceptions of course) which I find completely amazing. I realize this is UT so it's perhaps even more inexcusable. At my T14 I think we all owe career services our lives and they do an amazing fucking job

At my T2, CSO is largely made of former students who struck out years ago at finding a legal job and remained employed with the school after graduation.


Taht is so hilarious. Where the FUCK does your tuition go? Is any of it put to good use?

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:21 pm

It's way too early to throw up the white flag. Firms are hiring into late October. Just keep reaching out to people. And if you haven't received dings from your callbacks this is wayyyy too premature.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby kwais » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dood wrote:
Flips88 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:- failutre to show enthusiasm for the firm. Enthusiasm is really important. Not necessarily rah rah. But I think you need to convey the point: "you're my #1 choice and I would definitely work here if you gave me an offer."

Just gonna say this isn't the best advice. I did it for my #1 choice at OCI and didn't even get a callback. Not sure if that was the reason but it can either make you look desperate or maybe even presumptuous


u cant say "u're my #1 choice" bc it does look desperate, maybe presumptuous, and mostly just weird (is that what you say to every firm?). but enthusiasm is important - just keep it normal, like telling them u're "really interested b/c xyz"


I do not recommend actually saying "you're my #1." But I wish I showed more enthusiasm and gave off the impression to each firm that they were my number 1.


you guys are overthinking this. If the firm is your number one choice then say that. And if they are not, show enthusiasm in some other way.
When I read TLS advice about interviewing, I get the sense that some people have trouble because they are in their own head trying to remember all of this crap. Just be honest, be enthusiastic and have a good time. That's who they want to hire.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It's way too early to throw up the white flag. Firms are hiring into late October. Just keep reaching out to people. And if you haven't received dings from your callbacks this is wayyyy too premature.


Is it just a rumor that Haynes & Boone has made two rounds of rejections? (I'm the OP clone who got screwed by the CSO). Also, I got added to the schedules of 5/6 firms with few or no openings, including the one I got the CB from, after talking to the HR person outside the door, sometimes for up to 20 minutes. I think if I had presentation issues, or social skills deficits, I wouldn't have gotten that kind of response rate since the main purpose of the HR people standing outside the interview door (with Texas and California firms) is to screen for social skills prior to the interview to narrow the pool. I also got a 5-1 callback ration with NYC V30's at a job fair, which isn't great for my numbers but isn't awful either, prior to taking the CSO's advice (a few of these are still pending, so fingers crossed).

My grades at UT and a native Texan on LR should NOT be striking out of Big Tex without serious social deficiencies. I have a feeling my meeting with the new Dean may be productive based on my ability to document everything in writing and explain it cogently, so I'm not dropping out yet. I'd love to work in Boston, Chicago, or NYC if he can make some calls for me in those cities where he's been during his career. Wish me luck!

EDIT: In response to non-profit, I did sometimes talk about firm culture on a very basic level in my interviews , but I think it sounded insincere and commercialized because I have little feel for this sort of thing having never been around a large law firm before. At risk of outing myself, I tried to ask every firm not on Chambers & Associates whether they did the "free market system" or the "Cravath model" and tried to sell my interest based on their answer. But I realize this probably sounded really canned--since I have never experienced either and have no particular authentic reason to care about one or the other-- and didn't win me any friends. I also occasionally asked about partnership tracks. But these kinds of questions do not sound real, ya know? They sound like questions someone memorized for an interview. Firms want to hire people with a genuine interest in their practice areas and the ability to relate to normal people, which questions like these don't bespeak.

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Re: Top 15%, LR, T20 - struck out at OCI and taking questions

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:43 pm

kwais wrote:
you guys are overthinking this. If the firm is your number one choice then say that. And if they are not, show enthusiasm in some other way.
When I read TLS advice about interviewing, I get the sense that some people have trouble because they are in their own head trying to remember all of this crap. Just be honest, be enthusiastic and have a good time. That's who they want to hire.


This is credited. I got 11 callbacks for 21 screeners with median grades at t14. I followed some advice from career services like 1) thinking of some overarching themes I should try to convey about myself, 2) preparing for behavioral interview questions, and most importantly 3) making sure any one answer doesn't run over 90 seconds. But mostly I just smiled a lot, was very open and upbeat, learned 2-3 things about each firm I liked in case they asked why them, and KEPT THE POSITIVE ENERGY UP THROUGHOUT THE INTERVIEW. I tried to genuinely laugh at least once in each interview if I could. But of course you have to be receptive to who you're talking to. All of this was invaluable. It's not rocket science.




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