PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

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ben4847
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby ben4847 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:55 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
thesteelers wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
thesteelers wrote:Some firms do yield protect. I've seen this happen - some of my friends have been dinged by firms and, when they called to ask about it, they were given a YP-ish answer (off the record of course).


Again, was the feedback "you didn't express enough interest," or "your credentials are too good for us"?


"your credentials are too good for us" type stuff, i.e. "with your grades, we thought you'd go to Firm X or Y"


I genuinely believe that's just a failure on the interviewer's part to convince. If a firm really wants you, and they sense you have better offers, at least for all the situations I've heard from other firms and at my firm, they'll try extra hard to recruit you.


Well, surely you must have some anecdotal evidence for us also. So far you've been talking about V10 firms. Why don't you tell us about your buddy with a Cravath offer and also an offer from a non vault 100 firm.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:00 pm

ben4847 wrote: Why don't you tell us about your buddy with a Cravath offer and also an offer from a non vault 100 firm.


I know plenty of them.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:06 pm

RVP11 is a good example of above. Believe he had a V10 offer and a secondary market offer, and took the latter too.

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ben4847
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby ben4847 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:10 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:RVP11 is a good example of above. Believe he had a V10 offer and a secondary market offer, and took the latter too.


That's not crazy. Plenty of people would choose a nice life in a secondary market instead of V10. How about both in NYC?

keg411
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby keg411 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:13 pm

I don't think there's really that much of a difference between YP and not showing enough specific interest. Everyone is kind of talking past each other ITT. If you seriously convince a firm why you want to be there, and you have the credentials/intangibles that the firm is looking for, you're more likely to get a CB then if you just have a generic interview.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:20 pm

ben4847 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:RVP11 is a good example of above. Believe he had a V10 offer and a secondary market offer, and took the latter too.


That's not crazy. Plenty of people would choose a nice life in a secondary market instead of V10. How about both in NYC?


I'm not saying his choice his crazy. I'm saying that he received offers from pretty disparately ranked firms.

And yes, plenty of people, including people who I am sure are posting here, have offers from places like Cravath and offers from places like Schulte.

You're not going to see a lot of posts about "which one should I choose," since... well... the choice is pretty obvious.

There are already threads on this forum with people who have offers from Weil and from far lower ranked firms.

Again, firms don't care.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:23 pm

keg411 wrote:I don't think there's really that much of a difference between YP and not showing enough specific interest. Everyone is kind of talking past each other ITT. If you seriously convince a firm why you want to be there, and you have the credentials/intangibles that the firm is looking for, you're more likely to get a CB then if you just have a generic interview.


I can side with this.

wik557
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby wik557 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:40 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
Fresh Prince wrote:
shock259 wrote:And what are you basing this conclusion on? Heard quite a bit anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way. Not sure it can be conclusively resolved one way or another.


The fact that there's zero incentive at play. Almost no cost in giving an offer to someone who will almost certainly turn it down.



A call-back can cost the firm something like 1000 bucks, easily. Plus waste 3 hours of partner and associate time.


Holy shit, $1000!?!?!?!?!?! That's a ton of money.

For me and you, a ton of money. But a drop in the bucket of any big firm's recruiting budget.


It's not about the money, it's about the opportunity cost. Most people from any given school are going to accept an offer within a couple weeks of their OCI. There are only so many callbacks a firm can schedule during those two weeks. Common sense says they will use those slots to interview people who they think are genuinely interested in their firm.

I'm not saying all or even most firms YP, or that any do it to the same extent that schools do. And if you want to draw a distinction between yield protecting and saying "the candidate didn't show enough interest in the firm," okay. I don't see much of a distinction: If a firm extends an offer and the candidate eventually accepts, she was clearly interested enough in the firm, and if she doesn't accept, no big deal unless you are trying to YP.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:49 pm

I go to a school that has preselects, and there's definitely some YP at the preselect stage.

1. I got 100% of the preselects at V20 firms, and then was probably closer to 25% at "lower" vault firms.
2. I know of one firm in our home market that denied every single person in the top 10%, specifically because they were sick of them choosing of choosing one of the big name firms in the city.
3. This actually goes along with what you're saying, but being at the top of the class, I get pushed a lot harder at midsize firms for why I want to be there.

Also, there is some small market YP going on as well. I have interviews in a small secondary market that I have iron clad connections ties in, and was able to express exactly why I wanted to be there. The interviewer was still really cautious, just because he knows they pay half of market salary.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:06 pm

shock259 wrote:And what are you basing this conclusion on? Heard quite a bit anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way. Not sure it can be conclusively resolved one way or another.


You hear quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way because people can't fathom why their 3.8 isn't an auto-callback at lower V100. When I did OCI, I got dinged at all of my "safeties": Fried Frank, Dewey, Proskauer, Willkie Farr, etc. Ended up with 2 V10 offers though. Yield protection? No. I just didn't sell myself correctly to these firms. I didn't really know what they did, I didn't make an enthusiastic pitch.

Firms that are less grade selective are just that--they base their selection process less on grades. They'll take a higher GPA all else being equal, but they're not going to give a callback to a top 10% who gave a good interview over a top 30% who gave a stellar interview. Add to the fact that these less grade-selective firms have a lot fewer spots to fill and must be pickier about who they call back, and it can seem like people are getting yield-protected. But think about the mathematics: at most schools outside HYSCCN, both DPW and Willkie Farr are going to have the same 20-40 interviews. DPW has a 120+ summer class to fill, while Willkie has like 20. Willkie must give a lot fewer callbacks and offers than DPW, while at the same time they cast their net over a substantially wider pool of candidates in terms of GPA. The result is that any given person has a much smaller chance of getting a callback at Willkie than at DPW.

So if you got pre-selects at most of the V10 but only a few of the V50, there's your reason. The former will want to see almost everybody in their (tighter) grade range. The latter can be very choosy about the types of resumes it wants to see.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I go to a school that has preselects, and there's definitely some YP at the preselect stage.

1. I got 100% of the preselects at V20 firms, and then was probably closer to 25% at "lower" vault firms.
2. I know of one firm in our home market that denied every single person in the top 10%, specifically because they were sick of them choosing of choosing one of the big name firms in the city.
3. This actually goes along with what you're saying, but being at the top of the class, I get pushed a lot harder at midsize firms for why I want to be there.

Also, there is some small market YP going on as well. I have interviews in a small secondary market that I have iron clad connections ties in, and was able to express exactly why I wanted to be there. The interviewer was still really cautious, just because he knows they pay half of market salary.


This. I also know people that got pre-selects from V10s only to be ignored by the V50s or the regional firms.

I don't know if YP happens a lot at the CB stage but it definitely happens at the pre-select phase.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I go to a school that has preselects, and there's definitely some YP at the preselect stage.

1. I got 100% of the preselects at V20 firms, and then was probably closer to 25% at "lower" vault firms.
2. I know of one firm in our home market that denied every single person in the top 10%, specifically because they were sick of them choosing of choosing one of the big name firms in the city.
3. This actually goes along with what you're saying, but being at the top of the class, I get pushed a lot harder at midsize firms for why I want to be there.

Also, there is some small market YP going on as well. I have interviews in a small secondary market that I have iron clad connections ties in, and was able to express exactly why I wanted to be there. The interviewer was still really cautious, just because he knows they pay half of market salary.


Will have to think about this more, but this seems right.

This. I also know people that got pre-selects from V10s only to be ignored by the V50s or the regional firms.

I don't know if YP happens a lot at the CB stage but it definitely happens at the pre-select phase.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
shock259 wrote:And what are you basing this conclusion on? Heard quite a bit anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way. Not sure it can be conclusively resolved one way or another.


You hear quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way because people can't fathom why their 3.8 isn't an auto-callback at lower V100. When I did OCI, I got dinged at all of my "safeties": Fried Frank, Dewey, Proskauer, Willkie Farr, etc. Ended up with 2 V10 offers though. Yield protection? No. I just didn't sell myself correctly to these firms. I didn't really know what they did, I didn't make an enthusiastic pitch.

Firms that are less grade selective are just that--they base their selection process less on grades. They'll take a higher GPA all else being equal, but they're not going to give a callback to a top 10% who gave a good interview over a top 30% who gave a stellar interview. Add to the fact that these less grade-selective firms have a lot fewer spots to fill and must be pickier about who they call back, and it can seem like people are getting yield-protected.


Probably the best post in this whole thread. You get it.

And FYI, my experience was almost exactly the same: Got dinged from Dewey, Schulte, Stroock, Curtis-Mallet, and tons others, but got V10s. I know for a fact it wasn't YP. I just sucked when I interviewed with those firms.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby IAFG » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:17 pm

The people I know who had tons of offers, had them up and down the Vault range. The really, really desirable candidates I know were even able to get secondary markets with no ties, because they were just that sought-after.

But it's true, a 3.9 from Penn is more likely to get Cleary NY (93 summer associates) than BakerHostetler NY (6 summer associates). It's not YP.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby PMan99 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:22 pm

Couldn't someone Don't deans try to rationalize YP the same way, for example saying that UVA doesn't have as stringent a GPA/LSAT requirement as Stanford, and therefore looks at more things from applicants - namely, "Why UVA" essays (also known as "demonstrating interest").

One could say YP in admissions is simply a result of college students not writing additional essays demonstrating their interest in X school, or 5 LOCIs to really show their commitment, etc. It doesn't change what's going on.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:28 pm

PMan99 wrote:Couldn't someone Don't deans try to rationalize YP the same way, for example saying that UVA doesn't have as stringent a GPA/LSAT requirement as Stanford, and therefore looks at more things from applicants - namely, "Why UVA" essays (also known as "demonstrating interest").

One could say YP in admissions is simply a result of college students not writing additional essays demonstrating their interest in X school, or 5 LOCIs to really show their commitment, etc. It doesn't change what's going on.


I do think that in law school admission, students tend to overrexagerate when they're YP'd, though it's far more likely to happen in law school admissions than law firm recruiting.

That said, it's pretty well known around these parts that law school admissions is a numbers game, so it's pretty easy to spot YP if it happens. This is not the case with law firms. That 3.9 LR candidate from CCN might just be lacking in all or some of the other categories.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Renzo » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:28 pm

Two things:

1) if I knew how to send a firebomb via email, I would burn down Fresh Prince's computer this very instant.

2) the below is a good post, and explains what Fresh Prince is trying to say, only it's not coming from a no-social-skills-having mutant fucktard, so it makes sense.

Anonymous User wrote:You hear quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way because people can't fathom why their 3.8 isn't an auto-callback at lower V100. When I did OCI, I got dinged at all of my "safeties": Fried Frank, Dewey, Proskauer, Willkie Farr, etc. Ended up with 2 V10 offers though. Yield protection? No. I just didn't sell myself correctly to these firms. I didn't really know what they did, I didn't make an enthusiastic pitch.

Firms that are less grade selective are just that--they base their selection process less on grades. They'll take a higher GPA all else being equal, but they're not going to give a callback to a top 10% who gave a good interview over a top 30% who gave a stellar interview. Add to the fact that these less grade-selective firms have a lot fewer spots to fill and must be pickier about who they call back, and it can seem like people are getting yield-protected. But think about the mathematics: at most schools outside HYSCCN, both DPW and Willkie Farr are going to have the same 20-40 interviews. DPW has a 120+ summer class to fill, while Willkie has like 20. Willkie must give a lot fewer callbacks and offers than DPW, while at the same time they cast their net over a substantially wider pool of candidates in terms of GPA. The result is that any given person has a much smaller chance of getting a callback at Willkie than at DPW.

So if you got pre-selects at most of the V10 but only a few of the V50, there's your reason. The former will want to see almost everybody in their (tighter) grade range. The latter can be very choosy about the types of resumes it wants to see.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby 09042014 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:46 pm

Firms who aren't grade selective, are selective about something. Getting preselected at all V20 but only getting some lower could easily mean they just didn't like your resume. Basically a firm who doesn't really care if you are below median, isn't going to really care you top 5%.

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Firms who aren't grade selective, are selective about something. Getting preselected at all V20 but only getting some lower could easily mean they just didn't like your resume. Basically a firm who doesn't really care if you are below median, isn't going to really care you top 5%.


Well... They'll still notice it.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby fatduck » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:23 pm

Renzo wrote:Two things:

1) if I knew how to send a firebomb via email, I would burn down Fresh Prince's computer this very instant.

2) the below is a good post, and explains what Fresh Prince is trying to say, only it's not coming from a no-social-skills-having mutant fucktard, so it makes sense.

Anonymous User wrote:You hear quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that seems to point the other way because people can't fathom why their 3.8 isn't an auto-callback at lower V100. When I did OCI, I got dinged at all of my "safeties": Fried Frank, Dewey, Proskauer, Willkie Farr, etc. Ended up with 2 V10 offers though. Yield protection? No. I just didn't sell myself correctly to these firms. I didn't really know what they did, I didn't make an enthusiastic pitch.

Firms that are less grade selective are just that--they base their selection process less on grades. They'll take a higher GPA all else being equal, but they're not going to give a callback to a top 10% who gave a good interview over a top 30% who gave a stellar interview. Add to the fact that these less grade-selective firms have a lot fewer spots to fill and must be pickier about who they call back, and it can seem like people are getting yield-protected. But think about the mathematics: at most schools outside HYSCCN, both DPW and Willkie Farr are going to have the same 20-40 interviews. DPW has a 120+ summer class to fill, while Willkie has like 20. Willkie must give a lot fewer callbacks and offers than DPW, while at the same time they cast their net over a substantially wider pool of candidates in terms of GPA. The result is that any given person has a much smaller chance of getting a callback at Willkie than at DPW.

So if you got pre-selects at most of the V10 but only a few of the V50, there's your reason. The former will want to see almost everybody in their (tighter) grade range. The latter can be very choosy about the types of resumes it wants to see.

great post, but i'd never seen it until now. maybe he should have called attention to it with a public service announcement?

alabamabound
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby alabamabound » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:42 pm

Based on personal experience, I think there is something akin to YP at the screener stage. Several other folks w/ strong grades & LR at my T14 seem to agree. However, that's an opinion, not a verifiable fact. As is FP's view.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:44 pm

It really doesn't matter whether there's yield protection or not, unless you're trying to make people feel bad about not getting job offers, does it?

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Old Gregg
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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Old Gregg » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:47 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:It really doesn't matter whether there's yield protection or not, unless you're trying to make people feel bad about not getting job offers, does it?


I'm sure theyll get over it. They do, after all, have offers at "better" firms.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Fresh Prince wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:It really doesn't matter whether there's yield protection or not, unless you're trying to make people feel bad about not getting job offers, does it?


I'm sure theyll get over it. They do, after all, have offers at "better" firms.

I, too, feel angry at these hypothetical people.

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Re: PSA: There's NO such thing as Yield Protection

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:21 pm

Sorry to bump this contentious thread. I don't have anything to say about its thesis one way or the other. But I will say that as someone with good grades from a top school, it's very frustrating when V100s and "smaller" firms grill you on why you want to work there, when in reality you don't have the CBs/offers from the V10s/25s that they assume you do. I know that "why us" is a standard question, and I prepare for it. But to have it be the theme of an interview is very frustrating. It makes me not know how candid I should be. And yes, this happens in major markets as well.




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