Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

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Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:08 am

Perhaps like some others on this board, I'm starting to have serious doubts that I'll be getting an offer for my 2L summer. If you are willing to share, I would like to hear from those who have been to that forbidden land and made it out alive. To get the ball rolling:

1. Whats the hierarchy of summer jobs outside of SAs?
2. What else should you do? Just rack up extracurriculars and crush your grades?
3. How did you stay inspired/healthily motivated?
4. Any general advice?

Don't get me wrong, I'm spending night and day mailing away and hustling just as TLS would advise me to do in my situation, but as the light at the end of the tunnel dims, I want to be able to change tracks quickly when it goes totally dark. Thanks to anyone who shares thoughts or experiences.

[Edited to fix my initial stupid first question.]
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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tedalbany
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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby tedalbany » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:Perhaps like some others on this board, I'm starting to have serious doubts that I'll be getting an offer for my 2L summer. If you are willing to share, I would like to hear from those who have been to that forbidden land and made it out alive. To get the ball rolling:

1. If not a market paying firm, what's the "next best thing" in terms of a summer position to have a chance at 3L interviews? Less-than-market paying firm? Judicial externship?


--ImageRemoved--

Yes, you take the less than market firm and cherish it. Unless you mean a summer clerk position that won't lead to an offer .... otherwise this makes no goddamn sense.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:18 am

tedalbany wrote:Yes, you take the less than market firm and cherish it. Unless you mean a summer clerk position that won't lead to an offer .... otherwise this makes no goddamn sense.


What about if no less-than-market paying firm offers? What would be a good option then?

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby ilovesf » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:10 am

Here in case there is any useful advice to follow. I'm interested in what to do 2L summer if not big law.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Perseus_I » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:43 am

Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby FeelTheHeat » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:45 am

ilovesf wrote:Here in case there is any useful advice to follow. I'm interested in what to do 2L summer if not big law.


Same here, although the thread isn't off to a rousing start.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby 09042014 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:49 am

Perseus_I wrote:Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.


Take a leave of absence for fall semester, and continue the mass mailing. If you get an SA, come back spring and overload classes the remaining three semesters.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:59 am

I actually know a few people like that.

Short answer: non-legal jobs or public interest. In house is also an [unlikely] option.

Long answer: a few anecdotal stories. I am posting anon because I don't want any of these individuals to be identifiable (some people here know me IRL)

1- my roommate last year didn't get anything at EIP (shitty grades, bottom 1/3). Tried smaller firms but not that hard, i.e. only applied to jobs that were posted on our website (not many) and didn't get anything there either. Ended up getting a last minute (April) job at a hedge fund but didn't get an offer (pushed a short idea that went sour, so maybe that). Tried again @ EIP this year with better 2L grades but no hits (still below median). 3L EIP, at least at HLS, is pretty much only for 2L SA's who for whatever reason didn't like the firm or have to move to another city etc. I know a couple of no offers as well but they didn't get anything either. I think he'll try to find something @ another hedge fund or a bank.

2- a good friend who wanted public interest during his 2L and got a USAO gig for the summer. Changed his mind and did 3L EIP with some success (has a couple of call backs). Has good grades (also on a non-LR journal).

3- Last but not least, another friend who also had below median grades. Did a very small firm 2L SA (like 4-5 attorneys, family law in PA). Not sure how much he got paid but it was something like $20-$25hr IIRC. Did 3L EIP but nothing from big firms so far. Has had some success in mid-tier firms in NY and Cali by mass mailing.

From these and other bits I have heard, the biggest issue for 3L EIP is that firms don't like to hire people who haven't tried working at similar firms and have no idea what it's like.

HTH.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Perseus_I » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:00 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.


Take a leave of absence for fall semester, and continue the mass mailing. If you get an SA, come back spring and overload classes the remaining three semesters.


What I'm actually thinking of doing is taking a leave of absence to do an engineering degree for 3 years (or 4 maybe since I've only done through Calculus II in my undergrad history major). If I want to go back to law at the end of that time, I'll return to law school and redo 2L OCI targeting IP. Otherwise, I'll just forget about law school and get an engineering job. Petroleum engineers seem to be getting jobs, and smart phone software engineering is something I really find interesting and have actually done a little as a hobby.

I am in a special situation because I have the GI Bill, a full ride, and less than 10k in debt (which was unnecessary and stupid, but yeah...another story).

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby 09042014 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:04 am

Perseus_I wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.


Take a leave of absence for fall semester, and continue the mass mailing. If you get an SA, come back spring and overload classes the remaining three semesters.


What I'm actually thinking of doing is taking a leave of absence to do an engineering degree for 3 years (or 4 maybe since I've only done through Calculus II in my undergrad history major). If I want to go back to law at the end of that time, I'll return to law school and redo 2L OCI targeting IP. Otherwise, I'll just forget about law school and get an engineering job. Petroleum engineers seem to be getting jobs, and smart phone software engineering is something I really find interesting and have actually done a little as a hobby.

I am in a special situation because I have the GI Bill, a full ride, and less than 10k in debt (which was unnecessary and stupid, but yeah...another story).



Not a bad idea. The only problem with petro engineering is you have to be in bumfuck Egypt. But it's great paying.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:35 am

EIP... So that's like what, Harvard? NYU? Good god. If below median people at Harvard and NYU are doing family law in PA... the rest of us are fucked.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby NinerFan » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:36 am

Perseus_I wrote:Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.


Honestly, if I had struck out last year, I would have dropped out. If you have something else you can be doing, cutting your losses after 1 year - 1.5 years isn't a bad thing. Whether it makes sense to do so will depend in part on whether you can fall back on your previous career or your major for employment and whether you're borrowing a shitton of money to go to law school at the moment.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:38 am

NinerFan wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.


Honestly, if I had struck out last year, I would have dropped out. If you have something else you can be doing, cutting your losses after 1 year - 1.5 years isn't a bad thing. Whether it makes sense to do so will depend in part on whether you can fall back on your previous career or your major for employment and whether you're borrowing a shitton of money to go to law school at the moment.

What if you are borrowing a shitton of money with no job prospects from undergrad?

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:04 am

I actually looked into leave of absences, but my school only does them for 1 year, and no longer (barring extraordinary circumstances).

Seems like it would be hard to take a leave and get enough studying for IP in one year.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:43 am

Thoughts on quitting and trying the whole thing over after working for 7 years or so? I definitely underperformed on the LSAT (167 ... all PTs were 175 and I didn't sleep the night before the LSAT). I just went with Fordham since my family was always in my ear about going now instead of retaking, I did pretty well (top 15% or so ... was top 5% for 95% of the year but I did shitty in one class), but I guess not well enough as OCI is over and I haven't heard from a single firm.

I was thinking of just dropping out, finding work (or even starting a company) for 7 years or however long is necessary to 'clear the law school slate', then retaking and trying Law School again at a better school (if the legal economy is any better).

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:55 am

Where is timbs? You should PM him. He went through this and was very helpful to people last year.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:50 am

This happened to me. Had decent grades (top 30% and law review) at a decent school, but just ended up with nothing. I began my mass-mailing after OCI, which was obviously a huge mistake. Ended up taking a paid state government gig, which bolstered the government feel of my resume after the three other government jobs I've done in law school. I did well 2L year and got up to top 15%, so now I'm gunning for either gov positions or clerkships, which will give me another shot at BigLaw.

I had a lot of debt even after one year, and my undergraduate degree is worse than useless. Had neither of these things been the case, I probably would have dropped out. Some people complain when they get ADA jobs making $50k a year and say that they could have made that out of undergrad, but with my major, I truly couldn't have. So I thought it was worth sticking it out.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:30 pm

Perseus_I wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:Drop out and do something else.

That's what I am going to do after atrocious results with no explainable reason and nothing anyone can point to. I'm not even going to mass mail. If 40+ interviews, or whatever people do in OCI, doesn't lead to a job at the normal recruiting time, 2-3 more aren't going to lead to a job outside of the normal recruiting time unless one does something different. I've tried everything under the sun, and tried to get feedback from all kinds of people for months leading up to OCI, so I am just going to drop out if I don't get either an offer or a promising callback within a week.


Take a leave of absence for fall semester, and continue the mass mailing. If you get an SA, come back spring and overload classes the remaining three semesters.


What I'm actually thinking of doing is taking a leave of absence to do an engineering degree for 3 years (or 4 maybe since I've only done through Calculus II in my undergrad history major). If I want to go back to law at the end of that time, I'll return to law school and redo 2L OCI targeting IP. Otherwise, I'll just forget about law school and get an engineering job. Petroleum engineers seem to be getting jobs, and smart phone software engineering is something I really find interesting and have actually done a little as a hobby.

I am in a special situation because I have the GI Bill, a full ride, and less than 10k in debt (which was unnecessary and stupid, but yeah...another story).


Are you the one with the straight white teeth:-)? In all seriousness, I'm very sorry about your situation, but having no debt puts you in a pretty enviable position even though you're not getting the OCI results you want bc you CAN drop out. Good luck!

ETA: I don't think you should drop out necessarily but at least you can...and you're only 25

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby ggocat » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1. Whats the hierarchy of summer jobs outside of SAs?
2. What else should you do? Just rack up extracurriculars and crush your grades?
3. How did you stay inspired/healthily motivated?
4. Any general advice?

1.
A. Anything that pays and is likely to lead to a decent full-time offer.
B. Anything that pays and could lead to a full-time offer or give you a leg-up for 3L hiring (e.g., small firm, DOJ SLIP).
C. Unpaid government or legal aid job with organization you have a shot at for 3L/post-grad hiring (e.g., DA / PD offices; probably not USAO/DOJ).
D. Anything that will get you some experience that you can use for getting a 3L/post-grad offer.

2. If your grades are within clerkship range, then try to crush grades and get on a journal. If you're not in that range, only do extracurriculars that are somewhat relevant for organizations that hire 3Ls/post-grad (e.g., mock trial, moot court, some clinics; not secondary journal, club leadership, etc.). Regardless, it would be a good idea to work part-time at a local firm that might be able to employ you (either as an associate or law clerk) during the summer, 3L, or beyond. I think the best source of jobs if you miss OCI is getting a full-time offer from a place you worked part-time during school.

3. OCI was a bust for me. I wanted to clerk, so I did a judicial internship for part of 2L summer. A few months into the semester, I accepted a paid government gig for the remainder of the summer and 3L year. The latter was probably a mistake because there was virtually no possibility of a full-time offer (communicated to me at the outset). Getting my summer "settled" kept me motivated, but my suggestion is to not do that. Keep your eye on the prize -- post-grad employment -- even if that means stressing more during 2L re: what you will do over the summer.

4. Getting good grades does not require you to sacrifice other things like a part-time job during school year, law journal, or moot court. Try to do it all. Staying busy may keep you inspired/motivated (or at least not allow you down time to get bummed out about losing the law school game).
Last edited by ggocat on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby DrGuano » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:05 pm

Striking out would be the appropriate baseball metaphor here.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:16 am

Striking out would be the appropriate baseball metaphor here.



Yeah a NO HITTER is usually used from the perspective of the pitcher who throws a no hitter, which is a super awesome magical baseball feat.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:47 am

Where does in-house rank in this hierarchy? It's obviously not going to lead to full-time offer, but could it give you an impressive leg up at 3L hiring, especially if you want some kind of corporate or transactional job?

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby Perseus_I » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Some in-house does hire right out of law school. Red Bull, Shell, Exxon, and a couple of financial institutions come to mind. lawstudentjobs.com is a great resource I've heard good things about.

I think a lot of people also overlook federal honors programs like the DOL and the FTC, as well as the big 4, that hire right out of law school because they feel entitled to a firm job. Deloitte is happy to hire lawyers into their advisory practice, but few even apply. There are jobs out there; it's just that most law students are uncreative and limit their options due to the big law entitlement mentality.

It was shocking even how many 1L's at my school acted like they were entitled to a big firm job with no qualifications other than a Spanish major and a pretty face. Law schools should either go back to being an undergraduate degree or force everyone to work for five years first.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:20 pm

Well, the problem is that programs like the DOL and FTC are also pretty competitive, so they're not exactly a fall-back for people who strike out at biglaw.

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Re: Preparing for the worst: the 2L Summer No Hitter

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:40 pm

I struck out at CLS EIP and did a ton of interviews at other types of jobs. My T6 JD really allowed me to experience the full range of rejections for all kinds 2L summer positions. The hiring process went something like:

1) Federal government summer programs: Some of these pay, and they pay very well for non-firm work. The problem is they are more competitive than biglaw. I had a callback with the FDIC as late as February. There are fewer of these jobs since ITE because of funding freezes.

2) In-house: HP I know has a summer program. I've heard hedge funds and banks also do this. Very rare jobs, though.

3) State government: Usually unpaid/school fellowship. Mostly prosecutor gigs. They will want a deep seated interest in prosecutor work. My interview with the prosecutor involved her realized I really had no interest in being a prosecutor and telling me to call her when I got a clue (ironically, ended up interning for a different bureau in the agency during 3L year and loving it).

4) Boutique law firms: There is the ephemeral midlaw, obviously. Also check out large to mid-sized plaintiff's firms, especially securities, antitrust, mass torts, consumer. They often have summer programs.

5) Federal public defenders: Unpaid, again, and will want demonstrated interest.

6) City organizations: Certain very large cities, like NYC, will have city departments aside from the DAs office that need interns. NYC Law Department and the MTA have summer programs, for example.

In the end, I got my summer offer with about 2 weeks to spare in the school year.




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