SLS OCI 2012

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:40 pm

To give some hope on the timing front, I have received both callbacks and offers outside of the "one week" time frame. (Reason #432 to screen calls, so you don't pick up and say "wha?? thought fo sho I was out....") Latest callback came two weeks after the screener. Offers as long as 2.5 weeks. (Had some callbacks before OCI).

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Bottom line: SLS is not safe; it is not even close to being safe. If you are below median, you're not in significantly better shape than you would be at any other top-tier law school. You better be prepared to hustle like crazy if you want to land a job, and there is a very real danger that you'll strike out completely. I also read Dean Kramer's reassuring e-mails where he claimed that SLS places just fine post-ITE, and I now know that was utter bullshit. Yes, I'm a little bitter and angry right now, because I feel like I have been lied to and swindled out of $70,000 because of hucksters like this previous poster who claimed that SLS is safe ITE. Had I know that below-median students have this much trouble I never would have gone to law school. Realistically, I'm probably going to drop out if nothing pans out in my home market. No sense in accumulating even more debt for a degree that won't get me a job. So I hope the SLS prospies are scared, because they should be. Attending any law school other than maybe Yale is a huge gamble right now.


Now you're the one who seems ridiculous. I'm sorry, but if you had 40 chances to sit down with people and interview, that's as much as you can ask for. That's something that not everyone can replicate, and frankly you (and all other students at SLS) are very fortunate to have so many opportunities. At a certain point it is on you to secure a job. I'm not agreeing with the idea that you (or other people who struck out, of which I know of none) are weird, stupid, didn't try, etc. But you are doing something "wrong" because there are a number of people with 0-2 Hs who have secured CBs at highly competitive firms. Without knowing you or knowing what you did in interviews, it's impossible to say what that is...but it's not only your grades that caused your difficulty and you most definitely are not in the same position as people who don't even get the chance to interview.


Oh good grief. Yes, it is on me to secure a job, since I clearly can control whether or not a firm decides to call me back. :roll: Next time I'll bring a gun to my interviews and tell the interviewer that they better call me back or else. Sure, there are people with 0-2 H's who got callbacks, but there are also some who didn't. In my case, I think my problem was that my resume made interviewers doubt if I was really willing to move to New York to practice law. There wasn't much that I could do about that. In some other cases I know about I haven't seen any indication that the person did anything wrong. They were just unlucky.

And the idea that I'm somehow better off than other unemployed lawyers because I got a chance to interview is the most laughably dumb thing I have heard in my life. I bet all the opportunity to do all those screeners is going to help me pay off my loans. :lol: Seriously? It doesn't matter if you do 4 screening interviews or 400; it's still completely worthless if it doesn't translate into a job.

At any rate, if it makes you feel superior to me to tell me how big of a screwup I am for striking out, go right ahead. Knowing that I won't have to deal with people like you next year is making the idea of dropping out of law school much less depressing. But please don't spread any more bullshit on these boards about how SLS is safe and that anyone who struck out brought it on themselves. That's simply not true. Even OCS has acknowledged to me that there are plenty of people who didn't get any callbacks this year despite no obvious problems other than mediocre grades. Prospective students should not attend SLS right now unless they are willing to take the risk of being in the same position.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:58 pm

bump

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:47 pm

I guess it's valid to say that it doesn't matter now, but you had a shot and still have a shot. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or make myself feel better. It sucks to hear that a classmate is having trouble, but talking about how "unsafe" the school is doesn't reflect reality; you may have to hustle to get a job if you don't do well grade-wise and don't have a secured opportunity, and that's not unreasonable, nor did the school suggest that you would simply get a job for attending. There's no value in denouncing you for pointing out that SLS doesn't mean you automatically get a job...but I don't think any reasonable person thinks that. You still have time to fix things, but you don't seem particularly interested in doing that, and that is your prerogative.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby MartianManhunter » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:04 pm

Current 3L. Some people struck out at OCI. It happens. Some people bid poorly, some chose tough markets, and some people were weird. They had biglaw jobs by December (defined loosely, but paying market). Life is not as rosy for those that strike out at OCI at other schools, which is the insurance premium you're paying for.

Calm down, guys. There's a whole legal hiring process outside of the OCI bubble. You'll get your job.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I guess it's valid to say that it doesn't matter now, but you had a shot and still have a shot. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or make myself feel better. It sucks to hear that a classmate is having trouble, but talking about how "unsafe" the school is doesn't reflect reality; you may have to hustle to get a job if you don't do well grade-wise and don't have a secured opportunity, and that's not unreasonable, nor did the school suggest that you would simply get a job for attending. There's no value in denouncing you for pointing out that SLS doesn't mean you automatically get a job...but I don't think any reasonable person thinks that. You still have time to fix things, but you don't seem particularly interested in doing that, and that is your prerogative.


Wow. As I say, the one good thing about dropping out of law school will be the fact that I don't have to deal with jerks like you any more. Yes, of course I'm not interested in finding a job. It's better to just go kvetch about my situation on the Internet and hope that my $70k in debt pays for itself. The truth is that aside from refreshing Symplicity every night to get additional interview slots, I sent personalized cover letters to so many resume collect firms that Symplicity stopped letting me upload additional cover letters. And I mass mailed personalized cover letters to over 100 firms before OCI even started (both in the major markets and in my home secondary market). Now every day I try to send out at least 8-10 resumes to every law firm of any size in my home market that has any interest in hiring students for the summer. I have also tried cold calling firms, offering to come in for informational interviews, anything to get my foot in the door. I have a couple callbacks pending at local firms, but they all have tiny summer classes and I'm not optimistic about my chances.

I'm sorry it's so hard for you to hear that your law school isn't as wonderful as you think it is, but going around telling your classmates that it's their own fault that they struck out just makes you look like an ass. Nobody said that attending SLS automatically gets you a job, but when I attended as a prospective, people kept on saying, "Oh, if you have poor grades you'll have to go to a lower-ranked Vault firm, but nobody strikes out at OCI at Stanford. The only people who can't land biglaw jobs are people who self-select into government or PI." Well, that was clearly bullshit. If I had known that slightly below median grades (plus an unusual resume, to be fair) translated into nobody in the country wanting to hire me, I never would have wasted the $70,000 last year.

And to be clear, I know I'm far from the only person in this position. OCS has told me as much. And one professor that I talked to tried to reassure me by telling me that last year he helped a student who struck out at OCI find an HR job at a local company or something like that. I appreciate the fact that he was trying to make me feel better, but knowing that I could get an entry-level job that only requires a BS after racking up another $140,000 in debt did not make me feel better. It's just that most people in my situation are too embarrassed to talk about it. I'm talking about it in hopes of helping other 0L's to avoid making the same mistake I did. If you attend SLS there is a danger that you could do everything right and still end up with a huge pile of debt and no job prospects. The chances are lower at SLS than at most schools, but it still happens, and anyone who tells you otherwise is not being honest with you.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Kretzy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:26 pm

MartianManhunter wrote:Current 3L. Some people struck out at OCI. It happens. Some people bid poorly, some chose tough markets, and some people were weird. They had biglaw jobs by December (defined loosely, but paying market). Life is not as rosy for those that strike out at OCI at other schools, which is the insurance premium you're paying for.

Calm down, guys. There's a whole legal hiring process outside of the OCI bubble. You'll get your job.


Additional current 3L. Sorry to hear that you and others have had a rough time at OCI; it happened our year as well (as MM said above), but I can't think of anyone who continued to actively search for biglaw and didn't find a market-paying gig. Honestly. I can't think of a single person. There are those who struck out at OCI who then didn't go for biglaw (or weren't going for biglaw at OCI anyway) and found other things as well. Everyone (every. single. person.) found something before the end of winter quarter.

If you're reaching out to professors and the admin and every one of them is literally only saying to you "have you tried networking," you need to talk to other faculty. Then you need to reach out to upper-class students for advice. We've either been there or had friends who have been there (at SLS or elsewhere).

Good luck, and feel free to PM if you need/want help. Folks here want to help out each other (at least the vast majority of us).

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:30 pm

MartianManhunter wrote:Current 3L. Some people struck out at OCI. It happens. Some people bid poorly, some chose tough markets, and some people were weird. They had biglaw jobs by December (defined loosely, but paying market). Life is not as rosy for those that strike out at OCI at other schools, which is the insurance premium you're paying for.

Calm down, guys. There's a whole legal hiring process outside of the OCI bubble. You'll get your job.


I would love to believe you, but the fact that I have already been dinged by pretty much every major NYC firm and the fact that I can't even get interviews with most of the local ambulance chasing firms makes me skeptical. Just because most SLS students don't like to admit that they can't find a job doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Or maybe I really am that big of a screwup. Whatever the case may be, I think it is borderline criminal to tell the 0L's on this board that SLS guarantees you a market-paying job. Right now I would kill for a $40k shitlaw job just so that I can IBR my debt away, but even that doesn't seem to be an option.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:46 pm

Sorry to get this thread off-track, but I just have a small question: have most people been receiving dings by snail mail or email?

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to get this thread off-track, but I just have a small question: have most people been receiving dings by snail mail or email?


Both, but the vast majority come by snail mail. My mailperson (if they are paying attention) may think I am getting sued by a disproportionately large number of law firms ;).

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:49 am

.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:43 am

When people are counting H's are they also counting Spring electives? No spring but FedLit? Is FedLit counted twice?

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:52 am

Just for prospective students out there and perhaps worried 1Ls, I wanted to make sure that it is clear that 0-2 H's does not preclude you, even significantly, from finding a good BigLaw job. I know quite a few classmates with 2 or less H's who received CBs and offers in markets like LA, Texas and even the quite difficult SF market.

While I feel bad for the above poster who struck out and am sure his/her situation is in large part bad luck, I think stating that "if you attend SLS there is a danger that you could do everything right and still end up with a huge pile of debt and no job prospects" is a bit extreme. School literally hasn't started yet---there is a great deal of time to find jobs, network, hustle, etc. It's an unfortunate reality that nowhere these days (I'm sure not even at Yale), can every law student at a school be confident that they will definitely get a BigLaw job out of OCI. But if the above poster were to take a more positive attitude towards finding a job through alternative means, I think they will be successful. Just looking at the graduated class, essentially everyone had a job. The fact is that students SLS have a wealth of resources that are close to unparalleled for law students, and merely criticizing the institution for not getting a job is not going to help.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:59 am

I know someone with 0 H's, had 2 CBs, and just got an offer at a SF firm.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:01 am

Same anon poster who just posted---above poster should also remember SLS's terrific LRAP program. If for some reason BigLaw doesn't work out, SLS will make significant payments on your loans should you choose to work in public interest. In some cases, SLS has ended up paying off all of law students' debt. The mere fact that you have that as a backup option is something that most law students would be very happy about.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:51 am

I think grades are only loosely related to the OCI issues. I've got decent grades, LR, prior job experience, and have had a pretty tough go (4 CB's, one offer). I might not be a knock-your-socks off interviewer, but I'm not awful. OCS seems a little perplexed, actually, when I talk to them. I've also still got some firms I haven't heard from dating back to early in OCI, unless they sent paper dings I didn't get.

I agree with both sides of the coin 1) SLS students will be fine, but 2) I think SLS overstates the ease with which people will get fancy law jobs essentially automatically. I think the extent to which you need to stand out for some reason (special interest, diversity, incredible interview, outstanding grades), is not emphasized enough.

Screeners have limits. And I get the sense that a lot of the same people end up getting a large number of callbacks, since they stand out to every screener. People who are just solid (and will probably made great lawyers), don't quite make the cut in 20 minutes.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby MaxWeber » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:40 am

Kretzy wrote:
MartianManhunter wrote:Current 3L. Some people struck out at OCI. It happens. Some people bid poorly, some chose tough markets, and some people were weird. They had biglaw jobs by December (defined loosely, but paying market). Life is not as rosy for those that strike out at OCI at other schools, which is the insurance premium you're paying for.

Calm down, guys. There's a whole legal hiring process outside of the OCI bubble. You'll get your job.


Additional current 3L. Sorry to hear that you and others have had a rough time at OCI; it happened our year as well (as MM said above), but I can't think of anyone who continued to actively search for biglaw and didn't find a market-paying gig. Honestly. I can't think of a single person. There are those who struck out at OCI who then didn't go for biglaw (or weren't going for biglaw at OCI anyway) and found other things as well. Everyone (every. single. person.) found something before the end of winter quarter.

If you're reaching out to professors and the admin and every one of them is literally only saying to you "have you tried networking," you need to talk to other faculty. Then you need to reach out to upper-class students for advice. We've either been there or had friends who have been there (at SLS or elsewhere).

Good luck, and feel free to PM if you need/want help. Folks here want to help out each other (at least the vast majority of us).


This.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:11 am

I think that grades are over-emphasized as part of the consideration for OCI generally. For some firms they seem critical, but I get the impression that many firms (especially as you get away from the uber-prestigious firms) assume you can do the work and look for other things like ties, personalities that mesh with the office, interesting narratives, etc. I have no doubts that it is possible to not find a job via OCI from SLS. I have also heard mentioned by Kramer, OCS, etc. that while that did happen, people still found work...maybe not their first choice or even second. If people think that because they will automatically get a biglaw gig because of the school alone, they are probably wrong. But, SLS students certainly get a lot of chances and with some pretty favorable presumptions in their favor.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby MartianManhunter » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
MartianManhunter wrote:Current 3L. Some people struck out at OCI. It happens. Some people bid poorly, some chose tough markets, and some people were weird. They had biglaw jobs by December (defined loosely, but paying market). Life is not as rosy for those that strike out at OCI at other schools, which is the insurance premium you're paying for.

Calm down, guys. There's a whole legal hiring process outside of the OCI bubble. You'll get your job.


I would love to believe you, but the fact that I have already been dinged by pretty much every major NYC firm and the fact that I can't even get interviews with most of the local ambulance chasing firms makes me skeptical. Just because most SLS students don't like to admit that they can't find a job doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Or maybe I really am that big of a screwup. Whatever the case may be, I think it is borderline criminal to tell the 0L's on this board that SLS guarantees you a market-paying job. Right now I would kill for a $40k shitlaw job just so that I can IBR my debt away, but even that doesn't seem to be an option.


I forgot to add that you can PM me if you like if you (but Kretzky is the awesomer choice). I want to emphasize that hiring continues long after the OCI process and, while it sucks, there's no need to beat yourself up (or have others do so) for not nailing it in 2 weeks. There'll be firms that didn't get as many acceptances as they thought, that underestimated the class size they could support, many that don't come to OCI, or that have a myriad of other reasons for giving apps a late/second look. There are market paying non-vault firms. There are other markets (that, similarly, can go tilter). Good friends of mine struck out and both ended up in their #1 market by December.

I know it seems like the 3Ls are selling the same feel-good fairytale. I have no vested interest in SLS' rep on TLS, but I've seen it play out this past year and it is far better than the apocalyptic scenario 1-2Ls here often suggest.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:54 am

MartianManhunter wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
MartianManhunter wrote:Current 3L. Some people struck out at OCI. It happens. Some people bid poorly, some chose tough markets, and some people were weird. They had biglaw jobs by December (defined loosely, but paying market). Life is not as rosy for those that strike out at OCI at other schools, which is the insurance premium you're paying for.

Calm down, guys. There's a whole legal hiring process outside of the OCI bubble. You'll get your job.


I would love to believe you, but the fact that I have already been dinged by pretty much every major NYC firm and the fact that I can't even get interviews with most of the local ambulance chasing firms makes me skeptical. Just because most SLS students don't like to admit that they can't find a job doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Or maybe I really am that big of a screwup. Whatever the case may be, I think it is borderline criminal to tell the 0L's on this board that SLS guarantees you a market-paying job. Right now I would kill for a $40k shitlaw job just so that I can IBR my debt away, but even that doesn't seem to be an option.


I forgot to add that you can PM me if you like if you (but Kretzky is the awesomer choice). I want to emphasize that hiring continues long after the OCI process and, while it sucks, there's no need to beat yourself up (or have others do so) for not nailing it in 2 weeks. There'll be firms that didn't get as many acceptances as they thought, that underestimated the class size they could support, many that don't come to OCI, or that have a myriad of other reasons for giving apps a late/second look. There are market paying non-vault firms. There are other markets (that, similarly, can go tilter). Good friends of mine struck out and both ended up in their #1 market by December.

I know it seems like the 3Ls are selling the same feel-good fairytale. I have no vested interest in SLS' rep on TLS, but I've seen it play out this past year and it is far better than the apocalyptic scenario 1-2Ls here often suggest.


I hope you're right... I apologize for being so cranky yesterday. It's just discouraging when I feel like I have done everything that I possibly could and all anyone wants to tell me is, "Nobody strikes out at SLS. If you don't have a job yet, clearly you're a screwup who isn't trying hard enough." I have mass mailed pretty much every big firm in all the major markets and now I'm spamming my resume to any firm that will consider summers in my home secondary market. As the rejections from the $40k shitlaw jobs start to come in, I just want to cry and killself.

I don't know. If I still have no offers by the time school starts, I'm going to ask OCS for hard numbers on what happens to people who strike out at OCI and have no offers at the start of fall semester. Being told that everybody gets an offer eventually is not helpful. I definitely know of people who didn't, and I'm guessing that there are more people who are too embarrassed to admit to it. If OCS has hard numbers that show that people who strike out will almost always find good jobs eventually, then maybe I'll stick around, but if they can't provide this data, I'm gone. People also told me that nobody strikes out at OCI at SLS, and that clearly was not true, so I'm not sure I'm ready to gamble another $50k that the Internet chatter is correct that "everyone" who strikes out at OCI finds a job eventually. When I have zero callbacks from over 40 screeners and I come home every day to pile of rejections from mass mailing resume collect firms, it seems really naive to think that one of these firms is suddenly going to change their mind between now and December.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:11 pm

"The recession affects the entire legal profession, including the very top. The number of jobs in large law firms has decreased, and those who pursue that route will have fewer options than they did just a couple years ago. Nevertheless, Stanford students still feel secure in their employment prospects. Despite the state of the economy, Stanford students take comfort in the fact that they attend the best law school on the West Coast and one of the best in the nation. As one student put it, “anyone who really wants to make $160,000 coming out of school will probably be able to do it.""

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:"The recession affects the entire legal profession, including the very top. The number of jobs in large law firms has decreased, and those who pursue that route will have fewer options than they did just a couple years ago. Nevertheless, Stanford students still feel secure in their employment prospects. Despite the state of the economy, Stanford students take comfort in the fact that they attend the best law school on the West Coast and one of the best in the nation. As one student put it, “anyone who really wants to make $160,000 coming out of school will probably be able to do it.""


I still think that's terribly misleading information and not at all consistent with my experience or the experience of several of my classmates. I really hope that I can come on here and eat crow in a month or two, but at this point I'm planning on not being back at Stanford in the fall. I have had no luck landing a $40k shitlaw job, much less $160k.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby hung jury » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:"The recession affects the entire legal profession, including the very top. The number of jobs in large law firms has decreased, and those who pursue that route will have fewer options than they did just a couple years ago. Nevertheless, Stanford students still feel secure in their employment prospects. Despite the state of the economy, Stanford students take comfort in the fact that they attend the best law school on the West Coast and one of the best in the nation. As one student put it, “anyone who really wants to make $160,000 coming out of school will probably be able to do it.""


I still think that's terribly misleading information and not at all consistent with my experience or the experience of several of my classmates. I really hope that I can come on here and eat crow in a month or two, but at this point I'm planning on not being back at Stanford in the fall. I have had no luck landing a $40k shitlaw job, much less $160k.


Your experience and the experience of other 2Ls (I'm a 2L but don't know anyone who is striking out, though I'm sure there are some of us) is still shaped by the September 14th, 2012 date on the calendar. You still have time to secure a market paying job. Try to remember that.

I'm not suggesting you should stay in the program --you sound legitimately unhappy (given your outlook as expressed in this thread I also think you might consider a leave of absence, especially if you can't start thinking more positively about the job hunt ahead of you)--but the Kramer/student quote squares with everything I've seen from class of '12 and class of '13.

Best of luck.

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:51 pm

hung jury wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:"The recession affects the entire legal profession, including the very top. The number of jobs in large law firms has decreased, and those who pursue that route will have fewer options than they did just a couple years ago. Nevertheless, Stanford students still feel secure in their employment prospects. Despite the state of the economy, Stanford students take comfort in the fact that they attend the best law school on the West Coast and one of the best in the nation. As one student put it, “anyone who really wants to make $160,000 coming out of school will probably be able to do it.""


I still think that's terribly misleading information and not at all consistent with my experience or the experience of several of my classmates. I really hope that I can come on here and eat crow in a month or two, but at this point I'm planning on not being back at Stanford in the fall. I have had no luck landing a $40k shitlaw job, much less $160k.


Your experience and the experience of other 2Ls (I'm a 2L but don't know anyone who is striking out, though I'm sure there are some of us) is still shaped by the September 14th, 2012 date on the calendar. You still have time to secure a market paying job. Try to remember that.

I'm not suggesting you should stay in the program --you sound legitimately unhappy (given your outlook as expressed in this thread I also think you might consider a leave of absence, especially if you can't start thinking more positively about the job hunt ahead of you)--but the Kramer/student quote squares with everything I've seen from class of '12 and class of '13.

Best of luck.


Seriously, if you don't have any constructive advice to offer, I would really appreciate it if you just don't say anything. Being reminded by every single poster that nobody has trouble finding a job at Stanford just makes me feel even worse than I do already. I was actually managing to maintain a fairly positive outlook until I made the mistake of reading this thread and having 10 different people tell me, "Well I don't know anyone who had trouble finding a job." Well, congratulations. Those of us who are sending resumes to 10-attorney ambulance chasing firms usually don't go around telling our friends about it. Or maybe I'm just the one person at SLS who is such a loser that even ambulance-chasing firms won't hire me (much less biglaw). I don't know. If you know of government or PI jobs (or pretty much any kind of legal job) that would still consider SLS students this late in the game, I would love to hear about them. Or if you know some magical way to get market-paying firms to take my resume off the stack, I'll listen to that, too. But being reminded that comparatively few of my classmates are in this position does not make me feel better. I apologize for my negativity right now, but I guess it makes me frustrated that some of you seem to be more concerned with defending your school's reputation than giving honest information to 0L's who may be reading this board (or your less fortunate classmates' feelings).

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Re: SLS OCI 2012

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:53 pm

.




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