SLS OCI 2012 Forum

[tim.janitor]

llort

[simpletimes]

People are trying to give honest information to 0Ls and there are 3Ls trying to give honest information to you. You just seem to have an poor attitude and be a generally unpleasant person, but only you control those things. Now go ahead and rip my head off.

[neonx]

"The recession affects the entire legal profession, including the very top. The number of jobs in large law firms has decreased, and those who pursue that route will have fewer options than they did just a couple years ago. Nevertheless, Stanford students still feel secure in their employment prospects. Despite the state of the economy, Stanford students take comfort in the fact that they attend the best law school on the West Coast and one of the best in the nation. As one student put it, “anyone who really wants to make $160,000 coming out of school will probably be able to do it.""

I still think that's terribly misleading information and not at all consistent with my experience or the experience of several of my classmates. I really hope that I can come on here and eat crow in a month or two, but at this point I'm planning on not being back at Stanford in the fall. I have had no luck landing a $40k shitlaw job, much less $160k.

Your experience and the experience of other 2Ls (I'm a 2L but don't know anyone who is striking out, though I'm sure there are some of us) is still shaped by the September 14th, 2012 date on the calendar. You still have time to secure a market paying job. Try to remember that.

I'm not suggesting you should stay in the program --you sound legitimately unhappy (given your outlook as expressed in this thread I also think you might consider a leave of absence, especially if you can't start thinking more positively about the job hunt ahead of you)--but the Kramer/student quote squares with everything I've seen from class of '12 and class of '13.

Best of luck.

Seriously, if you don't have any constructive advice to offer, I would really appreciate it if you just don't say anything. Being reminded by every single poster that nobody has trouble finding a job at Stanford just makes me feel even worse than I do already. I was actually managing to maintain a fairly positive outlook until I made the mistake of reading this thread and having 10 different people tell me, "Well I don't know anyone who had trouble finding a job." Well, congratulations. Those of us who are sending resumes to 10-attorney ambulance chasing firms usually don't go around telling our friends about it. Or maybe I'm just the one person at SLS who is such a loser that even ambulance-chasing firms won't hire me (much less biglaw). I don't know. If you know of government or PI jobs (or pretty much any kind of legal job) that would still consider SLS students this late in the game, I would love to hear about them. Or if you know some magical way to get market-paying firms to take my resume off the stack, I'll listen to that, too. But being reminded that comparatively few of my classmates are in this position does not make me feel better. I apologize for my negativity right now, but I guess it makes me frustrated that some of you seem to be more concerned with defending your school's reputation than giving honest information to 0L's who may be reading this board (or your less fortunate classmates' feelings).

I'm slipping out of anonymous for this. PM me, let's talk.

[Anonymous User]

"The recession affects the entire legal profession, including the very top. The number of jobs in large law firms has decreased, and those who pursue that route will have fewer options than they did just a couple years ago. Nevertheless, Stanford students still feel secure in their employment prospects. Despite the state of the economy, Stanford students take comfort in the fact that they attend the best law school on the West Coast and one of the best in the nation. As one student put it, “anyone who really wants to make $160,000 coming out of school will probably be able to do it.""

I still think that's terribly misleading information and not at all consistent with my experience or the experience of several of my classmates. I really hope that I can come on here and eat crow in a month or two, but at this point I'm planning on not being back at Stanford in the fall. I have had no luck landing a $40k shitlaw job, much less $160k.

Your experience and the experience of other 2Ls (I'm a 2L but don't know anyone who is striking out, though I'm sure there are some of us) is still shaped by the September 14th, 2012 date on the calendar. You still have time to secure a market paying job. Try to remember that.

I'm not suggesting you should stay in the program --you sound legitimately unhappy (given your outlook as expressed in this thread I also think you might consider a leave of absence, especially if you can't start thinking more positively about the job hunt ahead of you)--but the Kramer/student quote squares with everything I've seen from class of '12 and class of '13.

Best of luck.

Seriously, if you don't have any constructive advice to offer, I would really appreciate it if you just don't say anything. Being reminded by every single poster that nobody has trouble finding a job at Stanford just makes me feel even worse than I do already. I was actually managing to maintain a fairly positive outlook until I made the mistake of reading this thread and having 10 different people tell me, "Well I don't know anyone who had trouble finding a job." Well, congratulations. Those of us who are sending resumes to 10-attorney ambulance chasing firms usually don't go around telling our friends about it. Or maybe I'm just the one person at SLS who is such a loser that even ambulance-chasing firms won't hire me (much less biglaw). I don't know. If you know of government or PI jobs (or pretty much any kind of legal job) that would still consider SLS students this late in the game, I would love to hear about them. Or if you know some magical way to get market-paying firms to take my resume off the stack, I'll listen to that, too. But being reminded that comparatively few of my classmates are in this position does not make me feel better. I apologize for my negativity right now, but I guess it makes me frustrated that some of you seem to be more concerned with defending your school's reputation than giving honest information to 0L's who may be reading this board (or your less fortunate classmates' feelings).

I'm pretty sure s/he (and most other posters here) are genuinely trying to help you out. No one at SLS likes to see a classmate struggle, and I very much suggest an attitude check right now.

[Anonymous User]

If you know of government or PI jobs (or pretty much any kind of legal job) that would still consider SLS students this late in the game, I would love to hear about them.

Public interest and government hiring have barely even begun. You should talk to the Levin Center.

Also, the people posting in this thread are doing so because they were relatively generic plus median grades or whatever, and thus found OCI easy and made the unfounded assumption that it must be the same for everyone unless you are doing something wrong. I can confirm that Biglaw firms will reject people for arbitrary reasons that have nothing to do with grades, interviewing or personality (such an advanced degree that they don't like).

[Anonymous User]

No, I apologize for being so cranky the last few days. I guess the combination of extreme stress and the first poster basically telling me that it was my own fault left a bad taste in my mouth. It's just hard to believe that everyone gets a market-paying job at SLS when I'm literally applying to 15-attorney shops that run "If you have been injured in an accident" ads (and getting rejected by them). I really do appreciate those who are genuinely trying to help. I will probably be sending PM's to those of you who offered to help some time in the next few days.

[Anonymous User]

No worries - it's a stressful time. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

Any A&P offers yet?

[Anonymous User]

Any A&P offers yet?

Yes, D.C.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know how long Covington usually takes?

[Anonymous User]

Davis Polk NYC, anyone?

[Anonymous User]

A friend has an offer from Davis Polk NY but not sure how long it took.

[Anonymous User]

A friend has an offer from Davis Polk NY but not sure how long it took.

Do you know when h/she interviewed? There were a number of us that interviewed the same morning . . .

[Anonymous User]

SLS grad currently working at a V50. Here's my take. When we interview people from places like Stanford and Harvard, the biggest concern is whether the individual is willing to come back to our market. Students from these schools often have lots of options and it's a common problem to get these people to come for a summer only to have them go somewhere else after graduation. Consequently, in doing OCI, we were specifically instructed to "auto-ding" anybody who we thought might not come back to our market after graduation. Emphasizing your connections to the area is critical and inventing some family or a significant other who lives nearby is probably not the worst idea.

[Anonymous User]

No, I apologize for being so cranky the last few days. I guess the combination of extreme stress and the first poster basically telling me that it was my own fault left a bad taste in my mouth. It's just hard to believe that everyone gets a market-paying job at SLS when I'm literally applying to 15-attorney shops that run "If you have been injured in an accident" ads (and getting rejected by them). I really do appreciate those who are genuinely trying to help. I will probably be sending PM's to those of you who offered to help some time in the next few days.

Not at Stanford (or HY), but I have CBs at 3 V30 offices (main office for each) next week, a month after your post. Mass-mailing does work but there seems to be a trick to it (which I didn't realize until it was pointed to me). I'd ask you to PM me but I don't want to de-anon.
If you ARE still looking, basically do this: apply to any V100 or thereabouts firm you haven't already applied to (re-apply to the same firm even if you got dinged once or got dinged by another office), follow up with firms you've not heard from that you already applied to. Just put a brief cover letter (~200 words) in the body of the email, address it (and send) to the hiring partner, CC the recruiting coordinator, attach your resume and transcript, and send these emails in the first half of the work day (so if you save the drafts now, just send them at 9 am on Monday morning). The Stanford name alone will get you looks, and firms ARE still looking.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

I've never posted to TLS before, but am piping in to share my 2 cents, especially for all prospective students/1Ls who may be listening. To the anonymous Stanford 2L who can't get a job: you are not alone. Anyone at Stanford who is telling you that SLS is "safe," that no one fails to get a job and pay off their unspeakable student loan debt down the road, that you have to "try" to strike out at OCI, has already lost their credibility with me. The people who can't get jobs are quieter, while those with jobs are vocal (on TLS and otherwise), and this gives the impression that everyone at SLS gets a decent job. In 2012, this is false, even if a large number of SLS students do get $160k offers.

I'm saying this, and I'm one of the lucky ones who got a law firm offer through OCI (many students, as a matter of fact, did not). I applied to over 95 jobs, law firm and otherwise, in 11 different cities across the nation, for the OCI cycle (including resume collect, Simplicity postings, ect.). I spent days hardly eating because I was too busy writing individualized cover letters, overwhelmed with anxiety about my financial future. Within a month, I had secured ONE offer -- I took it and ran. In the event that I didn't receive an offer, I was planning to drop out.

I had to pay for my own airfare to visit several of the firms I got callbacks with (who were regional firms via resume collect), and who ultimately didn't extend offers to me. As I am an excellent interviewer, this was likely a result of my subpar grades and, in some cases, weak regional ties. I had to take out additional private loans last summer (1L summer), because I couldn't secure a full-time legal job, even then. I applied to over 50 jobs for last summer, while in law school, and not a single one pulled through. My grades suffered as a result, as I spent all of spring quarter frantically writing cover letters and interviewing. I ended up landing a part-time, work-from-home Doc review position off of craigslist two weeks before finals, which I supplemented with non-law part-time employment to keep afloat. That, along with $200,000 of debt, is what an increasing number of Stanford Law students have to look forward to with such "elite" credentials in today's legal economy.

I'm not going to keep following this thread, because I have better things to do with my time (i.e. hustle to make as much $$$ as possible to survive the next unspeakable tuition hike that the dean imposes without notifying the students). Just let it be known: SLS is NOT safe, and law school is not worth $200,000 of debt simply because "it's Stanford." This is 2012, and even for many "elite" JD candidates law school is a horrible investment.

[Anonymous User]

I graduated from SLS last year (class of '12). My sense about things is that the market was worse when I was there than it is currently, but I may be wrong.

I do not know of a single person in my class who went through OCI looking for a biglaw job and didn't ultimately get a biglaw summer SA. I was fairly tied into my class, and am confident that if there were a number of people who fit that category, that number was exceedingly small (1-2). That doesn't mean that everybody got their first choice SA, or that everybody got an SA position with ease. But, ultimately it did work out for everyone (I haven't heard stories as bleak as the one from the poster above, but I do know of several people who were in the stressful searching mode for a decent while). I know of several people in the class 1-2 years above me who didn't get jobs (when the market was worse) until Dean Kramer personally made calls on their behalf. The rumor was that he didn't let anybody who was looking for a firm job fall between the cracks.

What I'm trying to say is that this is a tough, crummy process. If this process is causing you to really think hard about whether law is the right career for you, then that's great--law's a challenging career, and I think that you'll find when (and I do mean when) you get an SA position that the practice of law is far from a perfect career. But, if on thinking hard about this you decide that the biglaw route is right for you, keep plugging away--trust me, things will work out.

Describing SLS as "safe" implies that getting a job from SLS is easy. I'm not sure that that's true for anybody -- there's a whole truckload of blood, sweat, and tears that everybody at SLS puts into getting a legal career, from studying for class, to studying for exams, to the often awful OCI process. Unfortunately, the OCI process is going to be a lot more awful for some students than others, and there will be some at SLS -- including some of the posters above -- for whom their job prospects will seem far from safe and for whom finding a job won't be easy. My big message to those posters is to keep your chin up, because the statistics are overwhelmingly in your favor. I'd analogize this to taking the Bar. After you take the Bar, utterly convinced that you failed, having people tell you that the Bar was easy, that everybody from SLS passes, and that the statistics are in your favor, is little solace. But then you pass and everything feels good again. Just keep your head up, reach out to alums, and keep on plugging away because you--like very nearly everybody who came before you--are going to pass this awful hazing ritual on the path to becoming a lawyer. SLS is so universally described as "safe," not because the path to a positive outcome is easy or without its potholes, but because the fact of the matter is you WILL get a job (and no, not a "shitlaw" job either, unless that's what you're looking for).

[Anonymous User]

"I haven't heard stories as bleak as the one from the poster above, but I do know of several people who were in the stressful searching mode for a decent while."

Sorry, but I was not merely in a "stressful searching mode." And I'm a current student at SLS, not a recent graduate.

"SLS is so universally described as "safe," not because the path to a positive outcome is easy or without its potholes, but because the fact of the matter is you WILL get a job (and no, not a "shitlaw" job either, unless that's what you're looking for)."

I hope every prospective law student reading this thread understands how dangerously deceptive statements like this can be. When $200,000 of student loan debt is at stake, in order to remain financially solvent, you need a job that will pay enough to justify going into $200,000 of debt to receive a professional degree that many, many other (unemployed) job seekers already possess, which will prepare you to work in a permanently contracting industry. There's nothing "universal" about it. Do your own research, read my previous post, and then decide for yourself if it is a "fact of the matter" that you will be able to remain financially solvent with a JD from SLS.

[Anonymous User]

How do you think SLS compares to HLS for job security? Paul Campos describes SLS as being as in a class of its own for employment prospects--when I wrote to him and suggested reasons why looking at recent data (primarily re:class of 2011) may be misleading, he assured me that Stanford was king as far as employment was concerned. When I went to ASW at Stanford, I was told that Dean Kramer called up law firms to get jobs for the few students that had poor bidding strategies and wanted to work at particular firms, in particular regions.

I am going to try to transfer from HLS to SLS in part because I want to work in California and have no ties to the region, in part because I like Stanford better--is this a foolish move?

[Anonymous User]

I'm the '12 graduate.

To the anonymous poster having difficulty securing a job, really, my heart goes out to you. I in no way mean or meant to downplay the amount that this must suck for you. I understood that you were a current student rather than a graduate--my response would have been different were you a recent graduate who hadn't found a job. What I'm trying to say is that things really will work out--take this as a mini internet pep talk. I don't know what's misleading about that. The SLS employment stats + my experience as a recent graduate support my statement that things will get better. There are a number of people each year (I'd guess something like half a dozen) who, for one reason or another, are still left searching for biglaw come mid-October. They will all find something (in biglaw) by the time they graduate. I suppose there's some possibility that you will be that one person who comes up every year or so who just legitimately strikes out from SLS, but I doubt it. My sense about these things is that it is exceedingly rare for someone to truly strike out (from 2L OCI, 3L OCI, and all of the rest of the time before loans come due) without extenuating circumstances from SLS--and that means that it is exceedingly unlikely that YOU will ultimately be left without anything. You are far from at the end of the hiring period, so now is far too early for you to give up hope. Like, years too early.

To any prospective students considering SLS, I hope that this discussion is somewhat of a jolt in the arm for you: law school is a difficult and often stressful place (as is the practice of law). Although I truly believe that SLS is one of, if not THE, best places to attend law school--both in terms of what your experience in law school will be like, and in terms of where it will get you for your legal career--that doesn't mean that if you get into SLS (/HLS/YLS) that law school is necessarily the right choice for you. From a strictly investment standpoint, there are few possible investments that entail no risk whatsoever. As the poster pointed out, there is some remote possibility that things could go horribly wrong and you could end up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt without any career path that feasibly permits repayment. (There is a much bigger probability that you will end up several hundred thousand dollars in debt with the realization that you hate the practice of law but must do it in order to repay your loans, either yourself or via LRAP.) That said, I stand firm in saying that SLS is--strictly from a financial investment standpoint--one of the best possible investments that one could make; the risk of ending up totally financially SOL is virtually 0 -- I would wager that there is fewer than one person a year (out of a 180 person class) who that happens to, and even if the number is actually 2, 3, or 4, that's an incredibly low risk (2% or so) for what amounts to a huge potential financial payoff. Now, if finances is the only reason why you're going to law school, shame on you. Stanford Business School is probably a much better bet if your goal is to get rich, and if you can get into SLS you probably can get into some excellent B School. There are countless reasons to be discouraged from going to SLS (generally involving the tough question of whether you should go to any law school), but I'm just not convinced that a financial risk-reward calculation should be one of them. From a risk-reward standpoint, SLS is about as good as it gets (I supposed YLS is similarly as good, and a top med school might be slightly better...but I can think of few surer and better financial investments one could possibly make in this world than SLS).

To the HLS student: my sense is that SLS is somewhat safer than HLS, if only because of its size. If you're in the position to transfer at the end of the year, however, you're going to be high enough in the HLS class that only a full academic meltdown will put you into the small HLS employment danger zone. I imagine there probably is some marginal advantage to SLS for west coast employment, but I think it's probably outweighed by the disadvantage of transferring -- you lose the relationships that you've begun to build at HLS. In other words, if you were making this choice as an admitted student, I would say that based solely on the factors you've described, you should go to SLS (there are other reasons to go to HLS). However, I don't think that the things you've discussed justify your decision to transfer. Stay at HLS, do reasonably well, and I think you'll find that you have what you need to break into the CA region even without ties.

[Anonymous User]

"Now, if finances is the only reason why you're going to law school, shame on you."

Right, I'm immoral. A JD from Stanford has immense, abstract, ineffable value, and I forgot to take that into account.

"The SLS employment stats + my experience as a recent graduate support my statement that things will get better."

The 2012 summer employment stats for 1Ls (not published) should reflect the fact that, this year, at least one 1L failed to secure full-time legal employment of any kind. If the statistics do not reflect this, then SLS is misrepresenting facts. Infer what you wish. Job prospects seem to be getting worse for law students day-by-day. A significant number of current 2Ls have struck out at OCI and are struggling to find jobs. This is over a month-and-a-half after OCI. Meanwhile, the former dean has significantly raised our tuition bills without notifying the student body.

It has become clear that, under circumstances increasingly common, it IS a wise decision to drop out of Stanford Law School for reasons directly related to: job prospects + student loan debt. This will continue to be the case until greedy law schools cut the outrageous costs of tuition. I don't know what the anonymous 2L should do, but there is no clear, easy, "universal" answer. I was very close to dropping out, and probably would have if I hadn't gotten a single offer out of my 95+ interviews/OCI resume submissions (spread across the entire nation). "SLS is expensive" is a magnificent understatement. My advice to current 1Ls is to flood the market with job applications on December 1st, as soon as you are allowed to do so, even if this means neglecting your 1L coursework. One of my biggest mistakes was to start applying for summer jobs too late into the process (i.e. mid-January).

"Although I truly believe that SLS is one of, if not THE, best places to attend law school..."

I agree. Unfortunately, it's still law school, and this is still 2012.

[Anonymous User]

I actually don't agree with you -- I'm not sure it (almost) ever makes sense to drop out of SLS for strictly financial reasons.

I assume you would agree with me that the time to drop out would be after 2L OCI. Worst case scenario--you have all Ps, have just struck out, have no leads, are not gaining traction anywhere, have 0 financial aid, and can't get a refund for fall quarter 2L year. In October, that means that you'll be approximately $96,000 in debt ($75,000 for first year CoL and tuition + $16,000 (1/3 of a year tuition) + $5,000 (1/6 of a year CoL)). The three-year cost of SLS at full everything will be about $225,000. So, by "cutting your losses" at $96,000, you essentially save yourself an additional $130,000 in debt (+ about a year and a half in opportunity costs).

How many people do you think there are who want biglaw and completely strike out at OCI and don't have any hot leads by Oct. of their 2L year at SLS? I would wager that there are probably like 4-5 people in this situation (feeling varying degrees of optimism). How many of these people will ultimately completely strike out? Maybe 1 each year (probably more like one every other year, but let's just assume 1 each year).

Under this scenario, your choices could be described as follows:

(1) you drop out of law school "only" $96,000 in debt. You don't have the degree, connections, or prestige that comes with an SLS JD and therefore aren't going to have much better career options than what you had prior to law school. You won't be able to take advantage of the LRAP program or, for the most part, the alumni network. How many people in this situation do you think will be able to secure a job that permits repayment of a loan like this? Even optimistically, in this economy, what do you think your chances of getting a job that permits repayment in this scenario -- 50%? That's a great wager for somebody coming from most law schools, but not out of SLS for reasons I'll explain below. Your chances of becoming destitute are essentially 50%, and your chances of wealth are pretty minimal given that $100,000 of debt hanging over your head. At the very least, it's going to take a long while making $50-60,000/year (a good income for someone with just a BA/BS) to repay $100,000 in debt--probably IBR is your best bet (30 years until your debt's forgiven).

(2) you stay in SLS and build up to approximately $230,000 of debt. You still have an 80% shot of securing a biglaw job (your financial goal, and one that makes repayment feasible). Worst case scenario, you have essentially a 100% chance of securing SOME PI-related law job that qualifies you for LRAP (and therefore have virtually 0% chance of becoming entirely destitute). You work in your PI job for 10 years and are left with 0 debt. At that point you can transition out of law entirely debt free. You also have the opportunity to get into midlaw in this scenario after building experience (your SLS JD will be very helpful making this sort of move) and potentially repay your remaining debt with a midlaw salary.

Look, there are tons of great non-financial reasons to drop out of SLS. But if you think you'll enjoy the practice of the law and are generally in a standard financial situation (aka a bad one), I don't see how dropping out of SLS makes any amount of sense. I really do welcome anybody who disagrees with me to show where my above scenarios go wrong or are misleading.

[Anonymous User]

The 2012 summer employment stats for 1Ls (not published) should reflect the fact that, this year, at least one 1L failed to secure full-time legal employment of any kind. If the statistics do not reflect this, then SLS is misrepresenting facts. Infer what you wish.

I am baffled that someone was unable to find full-time legal employment for 1L summer. The school gives people $6k to do PI work. They couldn't find somewhere that would let them work for free?

[Anonymous User]

I think it's an exaggeration to say that dropping out of SLS is a good financial decision. If getting some type of BigLaw job is your single goal, you'll get it. It might not be pretty. It might not be your #1 top choice market, and it might not be the firm you want. But if your only concern is paid legal work after law school, SLS is almost a sure thing.

However, I agree that the extent to which SLS OCI is viewed as almost sure thing is exaggerated. It's not. People strike out. It's actually somewhat random who strikes out. I know people with straight P's who had multiple offers. I know people with decent grades who did quite poorly. I think the students who have perhaps the toughest time are those with decent, but not fantastic grades, and no particular "hook." They can sometimes hit a "gap," where regional or less-prestigious big market firms assume they would not succeed in hiring them, since their records are pretty solid, but they don't quite make the cut for the top firms. The result is auto-dings from less prestigious firms, then slow dings from the top firms.

At the end of the day, they end up with a job, whether it's from last minute OCS intervention or something else. But it's a painful process and may result in accepting an offer with a firm that isn't necessarily what they envisioned SLS OCI opening the doors to.

Thus, it's neither the auto-hire festival that it's often perceived, nor some illusory sham where hoards go unemployed. Almost everyone gets some type of job. Many have lots of options. Some have few options. Some get nothing. There is no magic formula for sorting. Between good grades, law review, good interviewing skills, clear vision for what you want to do, knowledge of a firm, relevant work experience, and diversity factors, the more you have in your favor, the better your chances. But it's not as though everyone with X grades gets V10, Y grades gets V50, and Z grades strikes out. In some ways the bidding system + H/P grading relieves the pressure on grades. On the other hand, it means it can be a lot harder to predict pre-OCI how you'll fare.

[Also the tuition increase was publicized in the Spring. I remember a rather contentious town hall meeting where someone raised a big fuss.]

[slsjd]

Any updates? I hope the poster who was struggling ended up finding something for this summer.