Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

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Anonymous User
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Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:01 am

I'm a rising 3L and have a quick questions that I cannot answer by going through the MPR.

During my first year in Legal writing, I wrote the first assigned paper. After writing it, my friend and I had swapped papers and proof read each other's paper. It was nothing more than scanning the paper for grammatical issues etc. and we both basically took a minute or two to look at the paper and we both handed each other's paper back and said it looked good. Both of us turned it in immediately after that and made no changes whatsoever to the papers.

Later that night, after being concerned that he would lose points on the paper, my buddy asked his professor via e-mail a question because he had used different headings (memo heading, or just a basic heading). In the e-mail, he said something along the lines of after proof reading ___'s paper, I was wondering if we're required to have a specific heading. Well be both were accused of violating a class rule which was never told to us (we were both history majors in undergrad where that type of stuff was encouraged) and our papers were compared for plagiarism. After it was concluded that we did not plagiarize each other's work, the professors decided to give us a zero for the assignment and that was that. I explained the situation about how I was unaware that that was prohibited and that I had been encouraged to do that very same thing for my entire academic career. I explained that we were looking only for grammatical issues, and it was not to steal ideas from each other. He said he understood and it was fine, but he had to take some action since we violated the particular rule. I asked my professor if this would go on my character and fitness record and he said it wouldn't. I ended up booking the class even with the zero on that paper (it was barely worth any points, thankfully).

My question is, if I ask this professor to write a letter recommending me for admission to the bar, is he obligated to disclose that information? He is probably the professor I am closest to at my school. I speak with him regularly, and he is the coach of the Moot Court team I am a part of as the brief writer. He knows the type of person I am better than any professor at my school, and would love for him to write a letter, but I am hesitant if he is required to disclose this.

Again, this incident was not put on my character and fitness because of the innocent nature. We essentially received a zero and the issue was forgotten.

Any advice?

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sunynp
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby sunynp » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:10 am

My question: do you have any common sense? Why would you get the one professor who accused you of cheating to write a recommendation? Pick someone else. If you don't know any other professors start getting to know a couple of them.

Anonymous User
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:20 am

sunynp wrote:My question: do you have any common sense? Why would you get the one professor who accused you of cheating to write a recommendation? Pick someone else. If you don't know any other professors start getting to know a couple of them.



I understand that. Which is what I plan to do because I figured he would have to disclose it. But I would still like to know for sure if he is required to. He is the one who accused me of cheating, but he is also the one who knows better than anyone the type of student I am. That happens when you have a class with a professor with 15 other kids, with whom you see on a regular basis to discuss papers etc. vs. every other professor I have in a class with 90 other students that only knows me based on what I bubble in on a test or try to cram into an essay on a final. I'm not a gunner so I don't sit there and carry on a conversation with my professors in class, and the ones who do are constantly in their office so you can't really go try to get to know them that way.

There is another professor that I will ask to write one, but like I said, the professor in question is the one who knows me best.

Just a simple question.

admisionquestion
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby admisionquestion » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm not a gunner so I don't sit there and carry on a conversation with my professors in class

Just a simple question.


You suck.

"gunner" refers to people who "gun" i.e. shoot others down in a race for the very top grades. It also implies a level of doucheyness in terms of worrying about lots of minor details etc. Its law school code for "annoying type A overachiever."

Talking to a professor DEFINITELY does not make one a gunner. One CAN BE a gunner and talk to their professor...and one CAN TALK to their professor and NOT be a gunner.

And by making ridiculous comments like that you perpetuate an attitude which is terrible both for your classmates and your own education.

Cut it out.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:37 am

Don't use as reference unless absolutely necessary if not flame. This prof already chose to make a big deal of the incident when it sounds like it may not have been that big a deal based on what you said... Hence the question about common sense is credited. Only exception is if you could basically get a promise that this person wouldn't bring this up, but even then sounds like not a good person to ask.

lobolawyer
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby lobolawyer » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:40 am

sunynp wrote:My question: do you have any common sense? Why would you get the one professor who accused you of cheating to write a recommendation? Pick someone else. If you don't know any other professors start getting to know a couple of them.

Staberinde
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby Staberinde » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:48 am

This question is so absurd that it has to be a flame.

Obviously you don't need a great or even a good recommendation to get admitted to the bar. All you need is a recommendation that doesn't raise any red flags. So yes, it would be absurd to use a professor who might possibly raise a red flag.

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sunynp
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby sunynp » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:11 am

He could disclose it anyway, voluntarily even if not required. Find someone else. It is just a formality.

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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:24 pm

admisionquestion wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm not a gunner so I don't sit there and carry on a conversation with my professors in class

Just a simple question.


You suck.

"gunner" refers to people who "gun" i.e. shoot others down in a race for the very top grades. It also implies a level of doucheyness in terms of worrying about lots of minor details etc. Its law school code for "annoying type A overachiever."

Talking to a professor DEFINITELY does not make one a gunner. One CAN BE a gunner and talk to their professor...and one CAN TALK to their professor and NOT be a gunner.

And by making ridiculous comments like that you perpetuate an attitude which is terrible both for your classmates and your own education.

Cut it out.


I know the difference between a gunner and a person asking questions or talking with a professor.

My class has a few people who DOMINATE class discussions with "what if" questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the issues being discussed, and do nothing but confuse the rest of the students. They also spend most of their time in the professors office bombarding them with these meaningless "what if" hypotheticals. They are not asked to gain a better understanding (obviously) but are asked in order to impress the professor and the rest of the class, then they continue to do this in the professors office. Most of their questions contain at least one Latin legal term that we have not even discussed. One of them acutally went through the trouble of finding out our professor's political affiliations, and bashes whatever party the particular professors oppose. So in one class, he's saying how awesome Obama is, then the next he's accusing him of being a communist (of course that's a bit exaggerated but you get the point) If you go to a school function, these guys are hanging all over the professors that are present. There's about 5 or 6 of them that are absolutely ridiculous. That's why I said "gunner" because these guys are doing exactly what you stated as the definition of a gunner. These guys are the epitome of douche bags. Maybe I didn't include enough in my response for you to get that.

But regardless, that has nothing to do with the question I asked. A simple "yes" "no" or "maybe" is all I'm looking for. If you feel obliged to include an explanation as to why, please feel free. I'm not going to sit here and argue over a situation regarding whether the individual's I've referred to are gunners or not because it has absolutely nothing to do with the question i asked.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

admisionquestion
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Re: Would a Reference for Bar Admission have to disclose this?

Postby admisionquestion » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm not a gunner so I don't sit there and carry on a conversation with my professors in class

Just a simple question.


You suck.

"gunner" refers to people who "gun" i.e. shoot others down in a race for the very top grades. It also implies a level of doucheyness in terms of worrying about lots of minor details etc. Its law school code for "annoying type A overachiever."

Talking to a professor DEFINITELY does not make one a gunner. One CAN BE a gunner and talk to their professor...and one CAN TALK to their professor and NOT be a gunner.

And by making ridiculous comments like that you perpetuate an attitude which is terrible both for your classmates and your own education.

Cut it out.


I know the difference between a gunner and a person asking questions or talking with a professor.

My class has a few people who DOMINATE class discussions with "what if" questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the issues being discussed, and do nothing but confuse the rest of the students. They also spend most of their time in the professors office bombarding them with these meaningless "what if" hypotheticals. They are not asked to gain a better understanding (obviously) but are asked in order to impress the professor and the rest of the class, then they continue to do this in the professors office. If you go to a school function, these guys are hanging all over the professors that are present. There's about 5 or 6 of them that are absolutely ridiculous. That's why I said "gunner" because these guys are doing exactly what you stated as the definition of a gunner. Maybe I didn't include enough in my response for you to get that.

But regardless, that has nothing to do with the question I asked. A simple "yes" "no" or "maybe" is all I'm looking for. If you feel obliged to include an explanation as to why, please feel free. I'm not going to sit here and argue over a situation regarding whether the individual's I've referred to are gunners or not because it has absolutely nothing to do with the question i asked.


I stand by what I said. You clearly had a particular picture in mind when you what your originally said. I thoroughly believe you don't think all class participation is gunning. But, you did essentially say just that in your original post. Youngin's (me included) reading posts like this build up a feeling that it is dangerous to talk in class less one be labeled a gunner. So I was calling you out on your sloppy and therefore inappropriate language. That's it. I appreciate the explanation and figure any harm done has now been counteracted.

On that note. I strongly second that you should not use the prof in question as a recommendation. It is incredibly illogical to do so for the reasons given.




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