No-offered summer associate. FML

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Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:33 am

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think we sort of agree, but you're creating a false dichotomy. No one's denying that people who were no-offered probably did something wrong. The question is whether the summer associate's mistake(s) would have still turned into a no-offer if the firm were doing better in terms of finances and incoming work. I'm sure there are people who screwed up so significantly that not even the busiest, most overly-burdened firm would want to keep them on. However, I don't think that's the case in all (or perhaps even most) instances, as evidenced by some of the stories above (people being no-offered because of issues that were either very fixable or only happened once or twice).


Re: being no-offered for fixable mistakes that happen only once or twice... do you really think that in a situation where 2 of 30 summers are no offered, the other 28 turned in work product without so much as a fixable mistake that happened once or twice?

You can't take reviews at face value. Attorneys at firms aren't professional HR people. They hate doing these reviews. Everyone does. People hate pointing out flaws in other peoples' work. Watch the show "Chopped" sometime. See what the judges say about contestants' dishes while discussing amongst themselves, but then see how they candy-coat it when telling the contestant why they got chopped.

The biggest danger to just accepting these reviews at face value is that it can blind you to fixable issues. If a summer got no-offered because he was a complainer (people develop reputations for this very quickly), nobody is going to tell him or her that at his or her exit review. They'll point to some inconsequential mistake in their work product, the kind that all the other summers made too. There's a whole host of issues that can be the subject of firm gossip, get you no-offered, yet never be mentioned in your exit review.



For example, I got an offer at a firm that has several no offers where people are saying they only messed up on the first assignment. I'm pretty sure I got crappy feedback on an assignment, and my writing sucks. My review said, "everyone loves you, but we are going to help you learn to write better" and I got an offer.

These same people aren't really seeing a mediocre first assignment and saying "DING." You are getting personality dinged. For sure.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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EvilClinton
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby EvilClinton » Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:For example, I got an offer at a firm that has several no offers where people are saying they only messed up on the first assignment. I'm pretty sure I got crappy feedback on an assignment, and my writing sucks. My review said, "everyone loves you, but we are going to help you learn to write better" and I got an offer.

These same people aren't really seeing a mediocre first assignment and saying "DING On an unrelated note, I thoroughly enjoy the feeling of a hefty buttplug. The bigger the better!." You are getting personality dinged. For sure.


This conversation is stupid. You two should just drop it or PM each other. This thread is mainly for people that got no offered to share their stories and future plans. Your wild speculations are not helping anyone.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:13 am

EvilClinton wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For example, I got an offer at a firm that has several no offers where people are saying they only messed up on the first assignment. I'm pretty sure I got crappy feedback on an assignment, and my writing sucks. My review said, "everyone loves you, but we are going to help you learn to write better" and I got an offer.

These same people aren't really seeing a mediocre first assignment and saying "DING On an unrelated note, I thoroughly enjoy the feeling of a hefty buttplug. The bigger the better!." You are getting personality dinged. For sure.


This conversation is stupid. You two should just drop it or PM each other. This thread is mainly for people that got no offered to share their stories and future plans. Your wild speculations are not helping anyone.

Amen. Same with that endless detour about firm health. This is easily the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my academic/professional career -- and I am no K-JD. I am angry, scared, looking at an abysmal future, and want to share experiences and solutions, not isten a bunch of abstract bullshit by people who love to hear themselves talk. We don't care.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby romothesavior » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:48 am

EvilClinton wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For example, I got an offer at a firm that has several no offers where people are saying they only messed up on the first assignment. I'm pretty sure I got crappy feedback on an assignment, and my writing sucks. My review said, "everyone loves you, but we are going to help you learn to write better" and I got an offer.

These same people aren't really seeing a mediocre first assignment and saying "DING On an unrelated note, I thoroughly enjoy the feeling of a hefty buttplug. The bigger the better!." You are getting personality dinged. For sure.


This conversation is stupid. You two should just drop it or PM each other. This thread is mainly for people that got no offered to share their stories and future plans. Your wild speculations are not helping anyone.

TBF, being able to handle this conversation in interviews and learn from it is very important to getting another job offer, and to keeping that new job in the future. There are some people ITT taking ownership of the situation and crafting workable interview responses and gameplans. There are probably others who legitimately got sniped by bad economics or got screwed by their firm. But there are almost certainly others (a lot of people) who are mistakenly taking the firm's reason at face value and/or failing to come to grips with exactly why they were no-offered. This has the potential to really hurt in the long run. People need to do some serious reflection so they can improve their job prospects and eventually their careers as lawyers.

I don't think people are trying to judge or be condescending; TLS is a good place for community and advice in times like these. I know some no-offered folks and my heart truly goes out to every single no-offered person ITT. I also am sure some people have legitimate gripes, including one of my good buddies, so you can't really lump everyone together. But at least a handful of the many people claiming no-offers for trivial reasons or blaming economics (not all, but some) need to come to grips with the reality of their situation or they are going to struggle going forward. It is absolutely relevant to this discussion of "What next?"

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:46 pm

rayiner wrote:The biggest danger to just accepting these reviews at face value is that it can blind you to fixable issues. If a summer got no-offered because he was a complainer (people develop reputations for this very quickly), nobody is going to tell him or her that at his or her exit review. They'll point to some inconsequential mistake in their work product, the kind that all the other summers made too. There's a whole host of issues that can be the subject of firm gossip, get you no-offered, yet never be mentioned in your exit review.


I wish firms would give important negative criticisms like 'you complain too much.' I received basically no negative criticism in any of my reviews, and I highly doubt I did that great, but how am I going to improve if firms hesitate to tell me what I did wrong (especially the big negatives)? I intend to seek more informal feedback in the future and also to self-reflect on my work, I guess.

BTW, we had a couple complainers in my SA class this summer. Unfortunately they all got offers. I don't want anyone to not get an offer, but it is really hard to work with people who complain ALL THE TIME. From my perspective, we should be thanking the law school gods that we even have a job, let alone one that pays well, so the complaining really has no place, especially when it's about how many summer lunches we were allowed to go on or whatever. Ugh, makes me mad typing it...

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:58 pm

romothesavior wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For example, I got an offer at a firm that has several no offers where people are saying they only messed up on the first assignment. I'm pretty sure I got crappy feedback on an assignment, and my writing sucks. My review said, "everyone loves you, but we are going to help you learn to write better" and I got an offer.

These same people aren't really seeing a mediocre first assignment and saying "DING On an unrelated note, I thoroughly enjoy the feeling of a hefty buttplug. The bigger the better!." You are getting personality dinged. For sure.


This conversation is stupid. You two should just drop it or PM each other. This thread is mainly for people that got no offered to share their stories and future plans. Your wild speculations are not helping anyone.

TBF, being able to handle this conversation in interviews and learn from it is very important to getting another job offer, and to keeping that new job in the future. There are some people ITT taking ownership of the situation and crafting workable interview responses and gameplans. There are probably others who legitimately got sniped by bad economics or got screwed by their firm. But there are almost certainly others (a lot of people) who are mistakenly taking the firm's reason at face value and/or failing to come to grips with exactly why they were no-offered. This has the potential to really hurt in the long run. People need to do some serious reflection so they can improve their job prospects and eventually their careers as lawyers.

I don't think people are trying to judge or be condescending; TLS is a good place for community and advice in times like these. I know some no-offered folks and my heart truly goes out to every single no-offered person ITT. I also am sure some people have legitimate gripes, including one of my good buddies, so you can't really lump everyone together. But at least a handful of the many people claiming no-offers for trivial reasons or blaming economics (not all, but some) need to come to grips with the reality of their situation or they are going to struggle going forward. It is absolutely relevant to this discussion of "What next?"


I get where you are coming from, but how are you supposed to do serious reflection without taking the firm's reason at face value? Like even if you think that their answer is hiding something, how are you supposed to fix a problem you are unaware of? Even if the firm legitimately no offers a summer, simply guessing at the reason isn't going to help in the long run.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:37 am

Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
sunynp wrote:Of course they will check your references at some point.

Doesn't mean the firm will say whether I got an offer. Sorry, but this is just a variation of conventional tls wisdom passing as actual knowledge. I'm a looking for actual evidence that firms do give out this info and so far, zip. What I DO know for fact is that one person who actually knows what they are talking about, a recruiter, said that info is not given out. But that's just one person so far.


That's also just one firm. Why don't you ask your firm and find this out? It's kind of important.

I called this morning. She confirmed my suspicions: dates and position. That's it.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Another NO offer here. T30. Only one of the SA class who got the no no.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Another NO offer here. T30. Only one of the SA class who got the no no.

As one of the no offered posters above, I feel your pain. Feel comfortable talking ab it?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:13 am

T30 poster. Yes, ask away.

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TTH
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby TTH » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:48 am

Our of curiosity, do we have any of the Winston & Strawn Ten ITT?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:Another NO offer here. T30. Only one of the SA class who got the no no.


What firm (or range of firm) in what market?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:38 pm

Got no-offered this morning. I asked what the reasoning was. Got the standard "oh, it wasn't any one thing..." response. Had positive experiences with everyone I interacted with, did 30+ assignments on-time, only had 2 mixed reviews when I was walked through the reviews. Didn't get drunk and fight anyone etc., had really good time at all the social events. Don't really know what to think at this point. Definitely hurt from a pride standpoint. Secondary market.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Got no-offered this morning. I asked what the reasoning was. Got the standard "oh, it wasn't any one thing..." response. Had positive experiences with everyone I interacted with, did 30+ assignments on-time, only had 2 mixed reviews when I was walked through the reviews. Didn't get drunk and fight anyone etc., had really good time at all the social events. Don't really know what to think at this point. Definitely hurt from a pride standpoint. Secondary market.


I'm sorry, that sucks. Did you ask if a cold offer was a possibility? Also, how many people were no-offered? If it was a significant proportion of the class, you can point to this fact in explaining the no offer in future job interviews (assuming the cold offer is not a possibility).

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:26 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Got no-offered this morning. I asked what the reasoning was. Got the standard "oh, it wasn't any one thing..." response. Had positive experiences with everyone I interacted with, did 30+ assignments on-time, only had 2 mixed reviews when I was walked through the reviews. Didn't get drunk and fight anyone etc., had really good time at all the social events. Don't really know what to think at this point. Definitely hurt from a pride standpoint. Secondary market.


I'm sorry, that sucks. Did you ask if a cold offer was a possibility? Also, how many people were no-offered? If it was a significant proportion of the class, you can point to this fact in explaining the no offer in future job interviews (assuming the cold offer is not a possibility).

I was too shocked to ask if a cold offer was a possibility or what the offer rate was for the other summers. Dunno if I'm really up for calling back and asking. Can't even imagine doing law interviews again at this point, I won't graduate with much debt due to schollys/savings (less than $20k). So maybe I just get out of the game at this point? Dunno what to do now, feels like 3L will just be a waste of time. (FYI- Don't have the grades/school range to be competitive for A3 clerkships)

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.

Postby Myself » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:20 pm

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:12 am

Got my first post no offer interview. It's with the SEC though and searching through the site people seem to be adamant that theyre not hiring. Does anybody know if that's changed?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Sheffield » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:06 am

ajax adonis wrote:That really sucks man. I'm sorry to hear that. Seems like you couldn't see it coming. Maybe try for the cold offer, as someone said.

I have heard the term "cold offer" before but never asked what it meant. So let me ask here. . .

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby presh » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:14 am

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:49 am

presh wrote:
Sheffield wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:That really sucks man. I'm sorry to hear that. Seems like you couldn't see it coming. Maybe try for the cold offer, as someone said.

I have heard the term "cold offer" before but never asked what it meant. So let me ask here. . .


A cold offer is when you know you aren't welcome to come back, but "officially" the firm has given you an offer. It benefits the firm because they can report a higher offer rate to NALP, and it allows the no-offered associate to say they have an offer in any interviews and know that the firm will back him/her up.

how does one know he or she got a cold offer (and not welcome back)? is it obvious or more subtle?
and what happens if one with a cold offer accepts anyways?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby sunynp » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
presh wrote:
Sheffield wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:That really sucks man. I'm sorry to hear that. Seems like you couldn't see it coming. Maybe try for the cold offer, as someone said.

I have heard the term "cold offer" before but never asked what it meant. So let me ask here. . .


A cold offer is when you know you aren't welcome to come back, but "officially" the firm has given you an offer. It benefits the firm because they can report a higher offer rate to NALP, and it allows the no-offered associate to say they have an offer in any interviews and know that the firm will back him/her up.

how does one know he or she got a cold offer (and not welcome back)? is it obvious or more subtle?
and what happens if one with a cold offer accepts anyways?


1. I think the firm is clear if they don't want you back but will say you got an offer to help you get another job. Note- some firms won't do this as a matter of policy. You cant always just ask to be able to lie and say you got an offer when you didn't. ( not that I'm opposed to cold offers, people need jobs.)

2. How would anyone accept an offer that wasn't real? The firm isn't going to take you on, they don't want you and they aren't going to pay you.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby sunynp » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:Got my first post no offer interview. It's with the SEC though and searching through the site people seem to be adamant that theyre not hiring. Does anybody know if that's changed?

Not sure, but kill it in the interview. I don't know if they waste time interviewing of they absolutely can't hire anyone. Good luck - the SEC would be a great job.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:59 pm

Anyone else who get no-offered somewhat relieved, in some way? When it comes down to it, I was really just chasing the $$$, even if I did give my best effort.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone else who get no-offered somewhat relieved, in some way? When it comes down to it, I was really just chasing the $$$, even if I did give my best effort.


As a public interest-minded person who just struck out at OCI, I do feel that way.

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Sheffield
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Sheffield » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:45 pm

presh wrote:
Sheffield wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:That really sucks man. I'm sorry to hear that. Seems like you couldn't see it coming. Maybe try for the cold offer, as someone said.

I have heard the term "cold offer" before but never asked what it meant. So let me ask here. . .


A cold offer is when you know you aren't welcome to come back, but "officially" the firm has given you an offer. It benefits the firm because they can report a higher offer rate to NALP, and it allows the no-offered associate to say they have an offer in any interviews and know that the firm will back him/her up.

Thanks for your response. My understanding of a cold-offer is that you can say you were offered but you decided to decline. The reason you declined is solely up to you (and your imagination). Sound right?




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