No-offered summer associate. FML

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:38 pm

sunynp wrote:
rayiner wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:
w2e wrote:This is laughable. Come back and write about retention once you are actually an associate at the firm instead of reciting the pretty picture the firm fed you as a summer.


you're joking, right?

do you know how hard it is to find good midlevels (not just bodies, good ones or even tolerable ones)?


You can't let cyncicism replace rational thought. Firms need midlevels. They're extremely profitable for the firm. Headhunters charge a ton of money for every lateral hire they deliver. Also, when there is a vacancy there is an opportunity cost of foregone billing. That's why they care about retention, in the aggregate. That's why they pay bonuses. Otherwise there would be no reason to pay bonuses. They don't do it out of the kindness of their heart.

Well, not paying spring bonuses was an important factor in reducing firm expenses. Firms don't have to worry about holding on to laterals when there is no real demand from other firms. People do have to care a bit about mid-level associates because they fired so many people that their classes are small.
But the work and demand for big law remains close to what it was 2 years ago. Firms are being heavier pressured to cut fees. I think in this market the partners don't care about about keeping midlevels happy because there arent that many better jobs opening up.


Firms have always cared about retaining midlevel associates. The crunch is pretty severe now because of the layoffs a few years ago, but voluntary attrition was a big problem before the recession. Back in 2006, firms were paying $40k to first years. That was not because they wanted to share the wealth. It's because people were leaving. They're not leaving right now because the economy has slowed again, but even in 2011 they paid spring bonuses and that was because the lateral market was heating up again.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1L SA here no offered at V100 due to work product issues. Although I'm not in the same position as many of you are in this thread as 2L's, the feeling fucking sucks. It's REALLY hard for me not to think this is a reflection of the type of attorney I will be. I mean, to get no offered bc of work product seems to me the firm is saying they could NEVER see me working for them. 2 relatively negative reviews (out of 6 assignments) sunk me. Never told exactly what it was about my work product. Fuck.....


1L SA thinking I will be no-offered as well. Luckily since we got 1L SAs we're clearly marketable, we have a good shot at a 2L SA. I think just learn from the mistakes you made over the summer and make sure you don't make them again. I've never been asked if I received an offer from my 1L firm and I've had over 25 interviews so far.

The best thing to do is just not let it get you down and use 2L summer as a do-over, it's probably the only real do-over you'll ever get so it's awesome to have it.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:26 pm

1L SA here as well. Expecting a no-offer at firm in major market. The problem is that I'm getting crushed at OCI. Screeners keep asking whether or not I have an offer and why the hell would I look anywhere else. I'm also mass mailing tons of places and have gotten dings and silence back. Any advice? I feel completely unmarketable.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby traehekat » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1L SA here as well. Expecting a no-offer at firm in major market. The problem is that I'm getting crushed at OCI. Screeners keep asking whether or not I have an offer and why the hell would I look anywhere else. I'm also mass mailing tons of places and have gotten dings and silence back. Any advice? I feel completely unmarketable.


How are you responding to "Why would you want to work anywhere else?"

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby romothesavior » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:10 am

There is some conflicting info earlier in this thread that I'm hoping to clarify. Will the SA firm disclose my offer status to inquirers or not.

I would have thought so, but now im thinking that whether an offer was ever extended to a candidate is the sort of internal matter that a prudent HR dept would keep to itself. I can see them confirming start and end dates, and title. But offer status?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby thesealocust » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:There is some conflicting info earlier in this thread that I'm hoping to clarify. Will the SA firm disclose my offer status to inquirers or not.

I would have thought so, but now im thinking that whether an offer was ever extended to a candidate is the sort of internal matter that a prudent HR dept would keep to itself. I can see them confirming start and end dates, and title. But offer status?


Oh no, they'll definitely report truthfully on whether or not you got an offer if asked. That's the whole reason firms will sometimes do cold offers.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:57 am

traehekat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:1L SA here as well. Expecting a no-offer at firm in major market. The problem is that I'm getting crushed at OCI. Screeners keep asking whether or not I have an offer and why the hell would I look anywhere else. I'm also mass mailing tons of places and have gotten dings and silence back. Any advice? I feel completely unmarketable.


How are you responding to "Why would you want to work anywhere else?"


I usually say something about how their firm has a practice group that the old firm doesn't. I can't tell if they like that or are totally skeptical, given that I haven't had a lot of exposure to these new practices...

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:59 am

thesealocust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There is some conflicting info earlier in this thread that I'm hoping to clarify. Will the SA firm disclose my offer status to inquirers or not.

I would have thought so, but now im thinking that whether an offer was ever extended to a candidate is the sort of internal matter that a prudent HR dept would keep to itself. I can see them confirming start and end dates, and title. But offer status?


Oh no, they'll definitely report truthfully on whether or not you got an offer if asked. That's the whole reason firms will sometimes do cold offers.

I thought about that. But it seems to me that cold offers allow the firm to brag about a high offer rate, and not necessarily individual offers. Saying they extended offers to everyone last year is different from supplying information on a specific candidate (even if in this example it obviously means that each individual got an offer). So is your reply based on actual knowledge or is it just accepted wisdom / common sense around here?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.

By the same token, one of my friends at another firm was no offered from one of his halves. Hiring partner said he did not show as much "potential" as the others. Dafuq?? What in the ever loving fuck does that even mean? Again, the firm had assured everyone that there were spots for all of them.

So yes, while you owe it to yourself to ask, don't expect to be satisfied or learn much of anything from the answer. What a fucking TTT profession.

And no, I won't out the firm for you fucking bloodsuckers because it will out me.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby goodolgil » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.

By the same token, one of my friends at another firm was no offered from one of his halves. Hiring partner said he did not show as much "potential" as the others. Dafuq?? What in the ever loving fuck does that even mean? Again, the firm had assured everyone that there were spots for all of them.

So yes, while you owe it to yourself to ask, don't expect to be satisfied or learn much of anything from the answer. What a fucking TTT profession.

And no, I won't out the firm for you fucking bloodsuckers because it will out me.


Jesus. Inherent in being an SA is spending too much time on assignments. Almost universally, firms tell their SAs not to worry about this. That is awful.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.

By the same token, one of my friends at another firm was no offered from one of his halves. Hiring partner said he did not show as much "potential" as the others. Dafuq?? What in the ever loving fuck does that even mean? Again, the firm had assured everyone that there were spots for all of them.

So yes, while you owe it to yourself to ask, don't expect to be satisfied or learn much of anything from the answer. What a fucking TTT profession.

And no, I won't out the firm for you fucking bloodsuckers because it will out me.


Deleted

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.



This is a worse reason for a no offer than mine was. I 100% agree with the bolded part -- go out with a bang, and not a whimper.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby traehekat » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.

By the same token, one of my friends at another firm was no offered from one of his halves. Hiring partner said he did not show as much "potential" as the others. Dafuq?? What in the ever loving fuck does that even mean? Again, the firm had assured everyone that there were spots for all of them.

So yes, while you owe it to yourself to ask, don't expect to be satisfied or learn much of anything from the answer. What a fucking TTT profession.

And no, I won't out the firm for you fucking bloodsuckers because it will out me.


What a joke.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby 09042014 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:00 pm

traehekat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.

By the same token, one of my friends at another firm was no offered from one of his halves. Hiring partner said he did not show as much "potential" as the others. Dafuq?? What in the ever loving fuck does that even mean? Again, the firm had assured everyone that there were spots for all of them.

So yes, while you owe it to yourself to ask, don't expect to be satisfied or learn much of anything from the answer. What a fucking TTT profession.

And no, I won't out the firm for you fucking bloodsuckers because it will out me.


What a joke.


Maybe this is just bias, but I can't imagine firms no offer for reasons like this. Who would get an offer? Unless you are at firms who do 50% each year, this can't be the only reason.

It may be the only reason they tell you, but there has to be another. Even if it's that the firm can't afford it.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Seems like some people ITT have been no-offered but don't fully grasp why. You should be following up professionally with your firm to find out what you did wrong, especially if it was work related, and doubly so if you're a rising 2L.

Just got no offered from my firm. You know what they told me? They were concerned with my "time management" because a lot of work piled up in the last week. I worked pretty late to complete it all and apparently this showed bad judgement and time management. Basically I had an assignment that I didn't know would take as long as it did. That I got all the work done on time didn't matter. I explicitly asked the hiring partner if any of it was bad. Nope. None of it was bad. This was after the firm had told us there were offers for everyone, and I felt blind sided, because no one had intimated to me that this would be a problem. I was pretty social at the firm, went to almost all of the events, and there were quite a few people at the firm I would consider friends. Honestly I just wish I had gotten ripped as shit at a social event and fought someone so that way I could take ownership of the fact that I fucked up more easily and have a badass Tucker Max/Fenwick story to show for it.

By the same token, one of my friends at another firm was no offered from one of his halves. Hiring partner said he did not show as much "potential" as the others. Dafuq?? What in the ever loving fuck does that even mean? Again, the firm had assured everyone that there were spots for all of them.

So yes, while you owe it to yourself to ask, don't expect to be satisfied or learn much of anything from the answer. What a fucking TTT profession.

And no, I won't out the firm for you fucking bloodsuckers because it will out me.


This made me sick just reading it. I hope one day, when you've put enough distance between you and this firm, that you out them. I'll be hearing for myself next week, and this reminds me of how things can just go to shit, even if you're not expecting it.

Was this for your 1L or 2L summer? What are your plans now?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Maybe this is just bias, but I can't imagine firms no offer for reasons like this. Who would get an offer? Unless you are at firms who do 50% each year, this can't be the only reason.

It may be the only reason they tell you, but there has to be another. Even if it's that the firm can't afford it.


it doesn't really matter what the real reason is. the point is that this story and others in this thread go against "common wisdom" on TLS that to get no-offered, you either 1) have to really fuck up assignments; or 2) have major social/aspie problems. here, none of these elements were apparently present.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Maybe this is just bias, but I can't imagine firms no offer for reasons like this. Who would get an offer? Unless you are at firms who do 50% each year, this can't be the only reason.

It may be the only reason they tell you, but there has to be another. Even if it's that the firm can't afford it.


it doesn't really matter what the real reason is. the point is that this story and others in this thread go against "common wisdom" on TLS that to get no-offered, you either 1) have to really fuck up assignments; or 2) have major social/aspie problems. here, none of these elements were apparently present.

Yup. And it's a response to Romo's "figure out what you did wrong, bro," post. Even though you may ask, either the straight up answer may be nonsensical, or they might not tell you the real reason, so that's not helpful either.

It may actually be the real reason. None of the other people got slammed like I did in the last couple weeks, so I could have just looked worse by comparison. Had this memo where sub issues kept popping up and popping up, so a couple of assignments got compressed into the last couple days. Again, I was told the work wasn't bad, and I did't miss any deadlines (project were due "before you leave").

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Was this for your 1L or 2L summer? What are your plans now?

2L.

1) Wait to hear from first half firm to see if I got an offer
2) Call another firm I got an offer from beginning of 2L year and beg
3) Mass mail
4) Apply for non-legal jobs, probably private wealth. Helps that I have a good GPA from a good UG
5) Hopefully use pop's hometown connects to maybe get something legal

If it works out great. If not, sometimes that's just the way the dice come up.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Maybe this is just bias, but I can't imagine firms no offer for reasons like this. Who would get an offer? Unless you are at firms who do 50% each year, this can't be the only reason.

It may be the only reason they tell you, but there has to be another. Even if it's that the firm can't afford it.


it doesn't really matter what the real reason is. the point is that this story and others in this thread go against "common wisdom" on TLS that to get no-offered, you either 1) have to really fuck up assignments; or 2) have major social/aspie problems. here, none of these elements were apparently present.


I think (from observation) that doing sub-par work and having social problems are the major reason people get no-offered. Not the only reason--politics, economics, luck, etc, can all play a role, but those two are the major reasons.

Those reasons are not coextensive with "really fucking up" or being "majorly aspie" however. I think people underestimate how high the bar is for acceptable work product ITE, and there is behavior short of major aspie behavior that can get someone no-offered. When everyone is concerned about ITE, it takes less than major screwups to be in the bottom 10% of your SA class.

And the fact of the matter is that people who do sub-par work usually don't know it. I used to train new engineers in my previous job. You'd have guys come in with 4.0 from the local university who just took forever to get anything done, didn't communicate, couldn't see the big picture, etc. And they had no idea, and when they were finally let go t came as a surprise, but only to them.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:44 pm

rayiner wrote:
And the fact of the matter is that people who do sub-par work usually don't know it. I used to train new engineers in my previous job. You'd have guys come in with 4.0 from the local university who just took forever to get anything done, didn't communicate, couldn't see the big picture, etc. And they had no idea, and when they were finally let go t came as a surprise, but only to them.


Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that if a summer was in fact doing sub-par work, supervising attorneys should let them know when giving feedback. It seems like in a lot of the cases mentioned here, the summers got good feedback and good reviews all along and essentially got stabbed in the back at the very end.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby traehekat » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
And the fact of the matter is that people who do sub-par work usually don't know it. I used to train new engineers in my previous job. You'd have guys come in with 4.0 from the local university who just took forever to get anything done, didn't communicate, couldn't see the big picture, etc. And they had no idea, and when they were finally let go t came as a surprise, but only to them.


Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that if a summer was in fact doing sub-par work, supervising attorneys should let them know when giving feedback. It seems like in a lot of the cases mentioned here, the summers got good feedback and good reviews all along and essentially got stabbed in the back at the very end.


It's the same sink-or-swim, hide-the-ball mentality that permeates law school. You would think supervising attorneys would be more interested in your success than your law school, however, since they are paying YOU $160,000 rather than the other way around.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby bdubs » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
And the fact of the matter is that people who do sub-par work usually don't know it. I used to train new engineers in my previous job. You'd have guys come in with 4.0 from the local university who just took forever to get anything done, didn't communicate, couldn't see the big picture, etc. And they had no idea, and when they were finally let go t came as a surprise, but only to them.


Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that if a summer was in fact doing sub-par work, supervising attorneys should let them know when giving feedback. It seems like in a lot of the cases mentioned here, the summers got good feedback and good reviews all along and essentially got stabbed in the back at the very end.


"Good" reviews are subjective. No one wants to give mainly negative feedback. When feedback is mixed, i.e. this is good, but x, y, and z need improvement, that can be a sign of a negative perception. Most people will actually strive to give mixed feedback, but its key to distinguis whether they had to struggle to come up with things to do better, or if they had to stretch to find the positives. I imagine some K-JDs are probably going to have a hard time distinguishing because they've never received feedback from anyone who wasn't a professor.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:56 pm

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Maybe this is just bias, but I can't imagine firms no offer for reasons like this. Who would get an offer? Unless you are at firms who do 50% each year, this can't be the only reason.

It may be the only reason they tell you, but there has to be another. Even if it's that the firm can't afford it.


it doesn't really matter what the real reason is. the point is that this story and others in this thread go against "common wisdom" on TLS that to get no-offered, you either 1) have to really fuck up assignments; or 2) have major social/aspie problems. here, none of these elements were apparently present.


I think (from observation) that doing sub-par work and having social problems are the major reason people get no-offered. Not the only reason--politics, economics, luck, etc, can all play a role, but those two are the major reasons.


Are that many SAs truly capable of doing work that can't be criticized?

Just a hunch, but I think economics plays a bigger role in all of this. Dewey went under, there is good reason to believe that a NYC-based V20 recently laid off first-year associates, M&A work is down, a Texas Big 3 firm continues to lift its skirt for anybody willing to talk merger, GT just made that capital call. And that's just the stuff we know about. Sure, any one of these issues can be explained in isolation, but it appears to me some firms are struggling right now.

FWIW, I spent my second-half at a market-paying lit boutique (2-5 SAs). During recruitment, they boasted about their near 100% offer rate, and made it clear that fit is what they look for. During the second week, the hiring partner took the SAs out to lunch. He told us that the firm might not make offers to all of us because business has been slow for the past six months. He apologized for the situation, and then strongly hinted that any of us who did not get an offer from our first-half firm would get an offer from the lit boutique.

bdubs wrote:"Good" reviews are subjective. No one wants to give mainly negative feedback. When feedback is mixed, i.e. this is good, but x, y, and z need improvement, that can be a sign of a negative perception. Most people will actually strive to give mixed feedback, but its key to distinguis whether they had to struggle to come up with things to do better, or if they had to stretch to find the positives. I imagine some K-JDs are probably going to have a hard time distinguishing because they've never received feedback from anyone who wasn't a professor.


+1.

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
And the fact of the matter is that people who do sub-par work usually don't know it. I used to train new engineers in my previous job. You'd have guys come in with 4.0 from the local university who just took forever to get anything done, didn't communicate, couldn't see the big picture, etc. And they had no idea, and when they were finally let go t came as a surprise, but only to them.


Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that if a summer was in fact doing sub-par work, supervising attorneys should let them know when giving feedback. It seems like in a lot of the cases mentioned here, the summers got good feedback and good reviews all along and essentially got stabbed in the back at the very end.


They should, but lawyers aren't necessarily good managers or good at giving bad feedback. There is actually a whole area of management theory on the subject.




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