No-offered summer associate. FML

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somewhatwayward
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:33 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:look, man, you are extrapolating from your own experience onto everyone. it's not like bottom 20% is a rosy place to be for anyone, but 92% of people got offers at EIP at CLS last year. that (obviously) included some some bottom 20% people. (yes, not everyone did EIP but lots of the people who opted out were people with median or better grades who wanted PI or gov).

and URM can help below median people. i personally know three URMs at CLS who were bottom 20% after 1L who landed V100 jobs (two of them V50). yes, anecdotes are anecdotes, but if your blanket statements were true, then these people would've had no hope because these were below supposed hard cutoffs.


That 92 % epi is TLS rumor. If you look at the nlj stats not even 80 percent of CLS has a firm job.

And I'm afraid, by and large, you're wrong. Most people below median at top 14 (excluding HYS) do not get biglaw. I know a ton of people below median at UVA, almost none of them have a firm job. The one's that do had serious professional work experience, wrote onto law review, are bilingual or have major connections. A TON of people graduated last May with no job. Many of them are URM. Sorry but TLS's glamourizing of the top 14 (with the exception of HYS) as being schools were grades don't prevent you from unemployment--are just internet circle jerking. Bad grades--barring IP or exceptional connections means no firm job and lucky to get anything quite frankly. Something like 30 percent of the class of 2012 is working via the PI "fellowship" that UVA does. The bottom line is that firms have VERY hard cutoffs which they will not go below barring incredible connections or IP.


no, 92% is from EIP last year, which is class of 2013. that number was confirmed by CSO. the numbers you are looking at are class of 2011. even if you're looking at 75% good outcomes for class of 2011, that does not map directly onto the top 75% of the class. there were bottom 20% CLSers in that 75%, some of whom were doubtlessly URM (not bc URM = low grades but bc they are presumably spread throughout the class).

so, yeah.....grades not be all-end all; URM helps; yadda yadda. i still wouldn't advocate for anyone to blithely attend CLS without considering other, cheaper law school options or other non-law options, though.

Coco_Local
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Coco_Local » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:37 pm

Firms know that a big part of retention is building a community where people can at least tolerate each other,


Hahahahahahaa.........firms could give less than a shit about retention. And big firms are some of the most crazy, insane environments I have ever worked in (and I was a consultant before law school). I literally almost fell out of my chair when I saw this.

Honestly, being a summer was a crazy flash back to sorority rush, mixed in with a few legal writing assignments. Most people who are no-offered are not massive fuck ups. Try to be a bit kinder. Because in four years, when you are fired for your sub-par work product (because firms could give less than a shit about retention, kiddo), you will be looking for the same kindness and empathy.

To the no-offered folks...best of luck. Look for clerkships and be open to relocating. A friend was no-offered and clerked for the Alaska Supreme court, she managed to land at a good firm and righted her career. She's fine. If you're lucky, work hard, and hustle (with the main focus being on luck), you will be fine as well.

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:05 pm

Coco_Local wrote:
Firms know that a big part of retention is building a community where people can at least tolerate each other,


Hahahahahahaa.........firms could give less than a shit about retention. And big firms are some of the most crazy, insane environments I have ever worked in (and I was a consultant before law school). I literally almost fell out of my chair when I saw this.

Honestly, being a summer was a crazy flash back to sorority rush, mixed in with a few legal writing assignments. Most people who are no-offered are not massive fuck ups. Try to be a bit kinder. Because in four years, when you are fired for your sub-par work product (because firms could give less than a shit about retention, kiddo), you will be looking for the same kindness and empathy.

To the no-offered folks...best of luck. Look for clerkships and be open to relocating. A friend was no-offered and clerked for the Alaska Supreme court, she managed to land at a good firm and righted her career. She's fine. If you're lucky, work hard, and hustle (with the main focus being on luck), you will be fine as well.


I didn't think my SA was like that at all. We did work. Went to lunch. Went to the occasional summer event; but blew off most of them. That was it.

And firms do care about retention at the macro level. They don't care about you individually, but they need midlevels and bonus amounts are driven by how hard firms have to work the lateral market to get those midlevels. High attrition costs firms money.

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:29 pm

I was a V10 summer in 2009 and received an offer, but definitely had some difficult assignments situations, so I thought I'd share what I'd learned. This post isn't intended to knock on people who got no-offered or imply they didn't work hard, but I just wanted to share what worked for me.

-On one of my first assignments, I completely missed the point of an assigned memo. I had thought that they wanted a summary of caselaw when they were actually looking for a persuasive piece. The assigning associate sat me down and ripped on my work. My writing style was wrong, the way I had been taught to write in Legal Writing wasn't what he wanted, too repetitive, bad organization etc. etc. While the associate was blunt, I took careful notes and asked lots of follow up questions. His advice turned out to be some of the best advice on legal writing I'd receive over the summer and helped me tremendously with my future assignments (even though it was extremely difficult to sit there for an hour getting my work completely ripped apart). After the meeting, I thought I was going to be no-offered for sure. In the end, I did another assignment for the associate, incorporating his advice. His end-summer review for me was positive, and even noted that I "handled criticism with poise."

-Another thing I learned over the summer is to make a good, early impression with a partner whose opinion matters if possible. I had a difficult assignment with a very senior partner. The assignment was for a client and had a very tight turnaround time. I worked weekends, late nights, and even the 4th of July on the assignment. I made sure to respond to emails promptly, and they often came after-hours and on weekends. While its not advisable to make it a point to stay late and come in on weekends for appearances, I think it was very much appreciated that I was willing to do what was necessary to get the assignment done when there was a tight deadline. In the end, the partner wrote me a great review, the HR people made a point to tell me that the senior partner spoke with them to make sure I got an offer.

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So this isn't intended to berate no-offered C/O 2013 folks. Feel so sorry for you guys. This is for the edification of C/O 2014 kids who still have their SA's coming up.

It's a little disingenuous to think a firm that no-offers 2 of 20 SA's did it for economic reasons. If a firm readjusts it's hiring that late in the game, it'll be because of a much more substantial change in economics than whatever is saved by no-offering 2 SA's.


A firm that no-offers for economic reasons isn't necessary readjusting its hiring "late in the game." It's completely possible that the firm extended X number of summer offers after OCI/EIW/whatever, expected Y number of acceptances but actually received Y+5 number of acceptances, so now the firm has no choice but to wait until the end of the summer and no-offer people. They can't just call people up and rescind their acceptances once they realize they've overhired; they have to wait until the end of the summer program.

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romothesavior
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby romothesavior » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So is it like this for cb interviews also? One bad interviewing partner can sink you?

Duh

It depends on the partner and firm, but yes. Some partners are notoriously bad communicators, are especially harsh, etc., and a recruiting committee that does its job well will recognize this. Still, it can and does happen, and you'll quickly find in a law firm that not all partners are equal.

sadsituationJD
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby sadsituationJD » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:59 pm

-On one of my first assignments, I completely missed the point of an assigned memo. I had thought that they wanted a summary of caselaw when they were actually looking for a persuasive piece. The assigning associate sat me down and ripped on my work. My writing style was wrong, the way I had been taught to write in Legal Writing wasn't what he wanted, too repetitive, bad organization etc. etc. While the associate was blunt, I took careful notes and asked lots of follow up questions. His advice turned out to be some of the best advice on legal writing I'd receive over the summer and helped me tremendously with my future assignments (even though it was extremely difficult to sit there for an hour getting my work completely ripped apart). After the meeting, I thought I was going to be no-offered for sure. In the end, I did another assignment for the associate, incorporating his advice. His end-summer review for me was positive, and even noted that I "handled criticism with poise."



ROTFL at lawyers criticizing people's "writing," when most lawyers (esp biglaw lawyers) are terrible writers. Most legal "writing" is just copy n' paste slop that no one ever reads anyway.

Those good at writing go into an MFA program or journalism. Those good at science go to med school. Those good at math go into engineering. Those who are good at nothing and utterly without any talent, ability, or common sense go into law. It's an academic and professional dumpster.

HTH

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fatduck
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby fatduck » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:04 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:Those good at writing go into journalism.

i think you may have jumped the shark

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:11 pm

Just trying to gauge what my expectations should be, would you rather be someone who never had an SA and worked some kind of government job or for a judge or the like, or someone no-offered, while doing 3LOLCI?

run26.2
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby run26.2 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:-Another thing I learned over the summer is to make a good, early impression with a partner whose opinion matters if possible. I had a difficult assignment with a very senior partner. The assignment was for a client and had a very tight turnaround time. I worked weekends, late nights, and even the 4th of July on the assignment. I made sure to respond to emails promptly, and they often came after-hours and on weekends. While its not advisable to make it a point to stay late and come in on weekends for appearances, I think it was very much appreciated that I was willing to do what was necessary to get the assignment done when there was a tight deadline. In the end, the partner wrote me a great review, the HR people made a point to tell me that the senior partner spoke with them to make sure I got an offer.

Did this result in setting the bar at a very high level for yourself, i.e. one that was possibly unsustainable over the long-term? Or maybe it is sustainable over the long-term?

I understand that most of the time it will be quite busy. I guess I'm trying to get a feel for whether there are periods where you don't feel like you're working all the time, especially if you establish that you're willing to basically do anything to get the job done from right out of the gate.

uci2013
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby uci2013 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is a thread of about no-offers. We don't give a shit about the relative worth of UT. Take that conversation elsewhere.

I was no offered for work product. The work itself was good, but timeliness and communication were an issue. All my reviews were good, but most featured negatives touching on the above issues. No personality or fit problems. Basically, I failed to communicate when I ran into roadblocks, and silently blew several deadlines as a result. That's a deadly combo. This happened because I had a difficult assignment early on that destroyed my confidence for the rest of the summer. I couldn't seem to give the notoriously difficult partner what she wanted, so I spent an inordinate amount of time agonizing about this thing at the expense of my other projects, instead just producing something, turning it in, and moving on.

I mostly blame myself. I knew I was under performing and saw the no-offer coming from miles away. That said, I do feel that it was a bit unfair to ask this work of a summer. It was an objectively difficult and novel issue, and we were on the wrong side of whatever little case law there was. I felt like I was tasked with squeezing water from a stone -- and that saying there was no water was unacceptable. The senior associate who worked on the same issue in the lower court (and no longer involved) was disgusted by the case. He told me it was one of the most difficult things he'd ever worked on. He had done previously done all the research he could, but the partner was not happy. Why give this to a summer then? Well, here is the answer that I found out much later in the summer: client's budget was extremely tight, and the partner was overjoyed at the opportunity to pass this work on to a summer whose billing rates are low or nil. So while I most certainly could have done many things better (namely, avoid obsessing about this project and complete my other work on time), I do feel I got a bit screwed.

The key to understanding what I went through is realizing that I didn't know any of this (difficult partner, very challenging issue even for a senior associate) when I got the assignment. All I knew was that I was tasked with finding a solution to this problem in my first couple of weeks as a "lawyer in the real world" and despite my best efforts, I was failing, failing, failing.

The real lesson here is to go back to the assignor with your dead ends and explain why they are dead ends (i.e., "I tried to apply this doctrine but it doesn't work because etc... I looked into this line of cases, but they are adverse because... etc.") instead of feeling like you have to find a path. It's too bad that this valuable lesson cost me the summer and possibly much more.

Just a cautionary tale for future summers (and against this pervasive idea that summer work is mostly BS work: our assignments were all real and mostly substantive work).


If I were a firm hiring partner, saw this and knew you wrote it I would be very tempted to give you another chance. Feel proud that you are willing to self-reflect like this and can acknowledge what went wrong and how to fix it in the future. I think showing you can do that is a good for your future career even if it things look depressing at the moment. And yes, sometimes there is bad luck involved. You happened to be the SA given this assignment, any of the other SAs could have gotten it. It would have been nice had the partner told you another associate had already put in time on the project and came up empty handed. I had an assignment like that this summer and was told I was being given the work because my time would be written off. It helps to have the confidence.

One thing I did when I was coming up empty handed by the way, was to call Lexis or Westlaw and ask their reference librarians for help as well. Then I would tell the assigning partner or associate what I had done, and I would say I called Lexis or Westlaw and they had the same result I did to add credibility.

Good luck to you and I hope you have a successful search from here.

Aqualibrium
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:21 pm

uci2013 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This is a thread of about no-offers. We don't give a shit about the relative worth of UT. Take that conversation elsewhere.

I was no offered for work product. The work itself was good, but timeliness and communication were an issue. All my reviews were good, but most featured negatives touching on the above issues. No personality or fit problems. Basically, I failed to communicate when I ran into roadblocks, and silently blew several deadlines as a result. That's a deadly combo. This happened because I had a difficult assignment early on that destroyed my confidence for the rest of the summer. I couldn't seem to give the notoriously difficult partner what she wanted, so I spent an inordinate amount of time agonizing about this thing at the expense of my other projects, instead just producing something, turning it in, and moving on.

I mostly blame myself. I knew I was under performing and saw the no-offer coming from miles away. That said, I do feel that it was a bit unfair to ask this work of a summer. It was an objectively difficult and novel issue, and we were on the wrong side of whatever little case law there was. I felt like I was tasked with squeezing water from a stone -- and that saying there was no water was unacceptable. The senior associate who worked on the same issue in the lower court (and no longer involved) was disgusted by the case. He told me it was one of the most difficult things he'd ever worked on. He had done previously done all the research he could, but the partner was not happy. Why give this to a summer then? Well, here is the answer that I found out much later in the summer: client's budget was extremely tight, and the partner was overjoyed at the opportunity to pass this work on to a summer whose billing rates are low or nil. So while I most certainly could have done many things better (namely, avoid obsessing about this project and complete my other work on time), I do feel I got a bit screwed.

The key to understanding what I went through is realizing that I didn't know any of this (difficult partner, very challenging issue even for a senior associate) when I got the assignment. All I knew was that I was tasked with finding a solution to this problem in my first couple of weeks as a "lawyer in the real world" and despite my best efforts, I was failing, failing, failing.

The real lesson here is to go back to the assignor with your dead ends and explain why they are dead ends (i.e., "I tried to apply this doctrine but it doesn't work because etc... I looked into this line of cases, but they are adverse because... etc.") instead of feeling like you have to find a path. It's too bad that this valuable lesson cost me the summer and possibly much more.

Just a cautionary tale for future summers (and against this pervasive idea that summer work is mostly BS work: our assignments were all real and mostly substantive work).


If I were a firm hiring partner, saw this and knew you wrote it I would be very tempted to give you another chance. Feel proud that you are willing to self-reflect like this and can acknowledge what went wrong and how to fix it in the future. I think showing you can do that is a good for your future career even if it things look depressing at the moment. And yes, sometimes there is bad luck involved. You happened to be the SA given this assignment, any of the other SAs could have gotten it. It would have been nice had the partner told you another associate had already put in time on the project and came up empty handed. I had an assignment like that this summer and was told I was being given the work because my time would be written off. It helps to have the confidence.

One thing I did when I was coming up empty handed by the way, was to call Lexis or Westlaw and ask their reference librarians for help as well. Then I would tell the assigning partner or associate what I had done, and I would say I called Lexis or Westlaw and they had the same result I did to add credibility.

Good luck to you and I hope you have a successful search from here.


I agree with the above post in every regard. I also had a few projects that were just impossible, and made a log of all my research and called both Lexis and Westlaw so that I could show the partner that I had exhausted every possible resource. It sucks to be given an assignment like this, and I know it isn't worth much to the anon poster who got no offered, but it's good that you learned and were willing to relay your story so others could learn as well.

123321
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby 123321 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was a V10 summer in 2009 and received an offer, but definitely had some difficult assignments situations, so I thought I'd share what I'd learned. This post isn't intended to knock on people who got no-offered or imply they didn't work hard, but I just wanted to share what worked for me.

-On one of my first assignments, I completely missed the point of an assigned memo. I had thought that they wanted a summary of caselaw when they were actually looking for a persuasive piece. The assigning associate sat me down and ripped on my work. My writing style was wrong, the way I had been taught to write in Legal Writing wasn't what he wanted, too repetitive, bad organization etc. etc. While the associate was blunt, I took careful notes and asked lots of follow up questions. His advice turned out to be some of the best advice on legal writing I'd receive over the summer and helped me tremendously with my future assignments (even though it was extremely difficult to sit there for an hour getting my work completely ripped apart). After the meeting, I thought I was going to be no-offered for sure. In the end, I did another assignment for the associate, incorporating his advice. His end-summer review for me was positive, and even noted that I "handled criticism with poise."

-Another thing I learned over the summer is to make a good, early impression with a partner whose opinion matters if possible. I had a difficult assignment with a very senior partner. The assignment was for a client and had a very tight turnaround time. I worked weekends, late nights, and even the 4th of July on the assignment. I made sure to respond to emails promptly, and they often came after-hours and on weekends. While its not advisable to make it a point to stay late and come in on weekends for appearances, I think it was very much appreciated that I was willing to do what was necessary to get the assignment done when there was a tight deadline. In the end, the partner wrote me a great review, the HR people made a point to tell me that the senior partner spoke with them to make sure I got an offer.


This is spot on IMHO. I had an almost identical experience on both big points.

With respect to producing a not so hot piece of work (which i most definitely did and was told as much by the assignig attorney), I think biggest factor that contributed to my problems on that project was a miscommunication with the assigning attorney about what he wanted. Could he have been clearer? Sure. But should I have done a much better job making sure my understsnding about what he wanted was correct? Absolutely. These things sound like common sense, but it can be difficult and awkward to try and figure out when you should ask a particular question or whether you should clarify a prticular instruction because cursory research had made clear the attorneys outlook/view on the issues is wrong. In short, I think firms put a huge premium on solid judgment (ie this may a dumb question, but I'd rather ask the group head now rather than after 7 hrs of research) in addition to grades and fit. A brilliant SA who is too lazy, shy or arrogant to ask necessary questions is not a great firm asset.

Of course this does not mean that being an epic douche will not get you no offered even if all else is great. The smartest kid on paper (think tippy top school and essentially top of the class) in my whole summer class got no offered because that summer was an absolute clown.

w2e
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby w2e » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:17 am

Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No offered summer from a v10, somehow I was able to get an offer from a v100 firm already. Is it natural to still be depressed? I feel ungrateful but what a drop and blow to my ego.


Did they say why you were no offered?


I had one bad review (Which completely blindsided me as all along the partner was offering positive feedback. Passive aggressive mfer).


God that sucks. Larger offices are really intimidating to me because of that kind of thing.



Getting no offered does not just happen in larger offices!

w2e
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby w2e » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No offered summer from a v10, somehow I was able to get an offer from a v100 firm already. Is it natural to still be depressed? I feel ungrateful but what a drop and blow to my ego.


Did they say why you were no offered?


I had one bad review (Which completely blindsided me as all along the partner was offering positive feedback. Passive aggressive mfer).



Yuck, that partner sounds terrible. It sounds like you might have dodged a bullet though - imagine working for that guy and getting Lathamed as a first year. Then you would really be screwed. Your gig at the V100 may not be as prestigious, but you may be happier there in the long term. And, if you still want prestige, keep your grades up and you can try to lateral after a couple of years at the firm. All is not lost. Think long term.

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So this isn't intended to berate no-offered C/O 2013 folks. Feel so sorry for you guys. This is for the edification of C/O 2014 kids who still have their SA's coming up.

It's a little disingenuous to think a firm that no-offers 2 of 20 SA's did it for economic reasons. If a firm readjusts it's hiring that late in the game, it'll be because of a much more substantial change in economics than whatever is saved by no-offering 2 SA's.


A firm that no-offers for economic reasons isn't necessary readjusting its hiring "late in the game." It's completely possible that the firm extended X number of summer offers after OCI/EIW/whatever, expected Y number of acceptances but actually received Y+5 number of acceptances, so now the firm has no choice but to wait until the end of the summer and no-offer people. They can't just call people up and rescind their acceptances once they realize they've overhired; they have to wait until the end of the summer program.


5 isn't 2 now is it? The point is that no-offering a couple of associates doesn't practically save the firm much money.

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:35 am

sadsituationJD wrote:
-On one of my first assignments, I completely missed the point of an assigned memo. I had thought that they wanted a summary of caselaw when they were actually looking for a persuasive piece. The assigning associate sat me down and ripped on my work. My writing style was wrong, the way I had been taught to write in Legal Writing wasn't what he wanted, too repetitive, bad organization etc. etc. While the associate was blunt, I took careful notes and asked lots of follow up questions. His advice turned out to be some of the best advice on legal writing I'd receive over the summer and helped me tremendously with my future assignments (even though it was extremely difficult to sit there for an hour getting my work completely ripped apart). After the meeting, I thought I was going to be no-offered for sure. In the end, I did another assignment for the associate, incorporating his advice. His end-summer review for me was positive, and even noted that I "handled criticism with poise."



ROTFL at lawyers criticizing people's "writing," when most lawyers (esp biglaw lawyers) are terrible writers. Most legal "writing" is just copy n' paste slop that no one ever reads anyway.

Those good at writing go into an MFA program or journalism. Those good at science go to med school. Those good at math go into engineering. Those who are good at nothing and utterly without any talent, ability, or common sense go into law. It's an academic and professional dumpster.

HTH


"Journalism" is for people too dumb to even get into law school. The "wriing" in the NYT is atrocious, unshustantiated, uncited crap. See "Manufacturing Consent" and "Trust me I'm Lying" for information on what sad sacks of shit journalists are.

w2e
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby w2e » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Coco_Local wrote:
Firms know that a big part of retention is building a community where people can at least tolerate each other,


Hahahahahahaa.........firms could give less than a shit about retention. And big firms are some of the most crazy, insane environments I have ever worked in (and I was a consultant before law school). I literally almost fell out of my chair when I saw this.

Honestly, being a summer was a crazy flash back to sorority rush, mixed in with a few legal writing assignments. Most people who are no-offered are not massive fuck ups. Try to be a bit kinder. Because in four years, when you are fired for your sub-par work product (because firms could give less than a shit about retention, kiddo), you will be looking for the same kindness and empathy.

To the no-offered folks...best of luck. Look for clerkships and be open to relocating. A friend was no-offered and clerked for the Alaska Supreme court, she managed to land at a good firm and righted her career. She's fine. If you're lucky, work hard, and hustle (with the main focus being on luck), you will be fine as well.


I didn't think my SA was like that at all. We did work. Went to lunch. Went to the occasional summer event; but blew off most of them. That was it.

And firms do care about retention at the macro level. They don't care about you individually, but they need midlevels and bonus amounts are driven by how hard firms have to work the lateral market to get those midlevels. High attrition costs firms money.


This is laughable. Come back and write about retention once you are actually an associate at the firm instead of reciting the pretty picture the firm fed you as a summer.

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:44 am

w2e wrote:This is laughable. Come back and write about retention once you are actually an associate at the firm instead of reciting the pretty picture the firm fed you as a summer.


Yes. "Come back after you have some spurious anecdotal evidence, instead of drawing conclusions from looking at the market, reading trade publications, etc."

Basing your conclusions on anecdotal evidence = laughable.

itbdvorm
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby itbdvorm » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:52 am

w2e wrote:This is laughable. Come back and write about retention once you are actually an associate at the firm instead of reciting the pretty picture the firm fed you as a summer.


you're joking, right?

do you know how hard it is to find good midlevels (not just bodies, good ones or even tolerable ones)?

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rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:04 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
w2e wrote:This is laughable. Come back and write about retention once you are actually an associate at the firm instead of reciting the pretty picture the firm fed you as a summer.


you're joking, right?

do you know how hard it is to find good midlevels (not just bodies, good ones or even tolerable ones)?


You can't let cyncicism replace rational thought. Firms need midlevels. They're extremely profitable for the firm. Headhunters charge a ton of money for every lateral hire they deliver. Also, when there is a vacancy there is an opportunity cost of foregone billing. That's why they care about retention, in the aggregate. That's why they pay bonuses. Otherwise there would be no reason to pay bonuses. They don't do it out of the kindness of their heart.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:54 pm

1L SA here no offered at V100 due to work product issues. Although I'm not in the same position as many of you are in this thread as 2L's, the feeling fucking sucks. It's REALLY hard for me not to think this is a reflection of the type of attorney I will be. I mean, to get no offered bc of work product seems to me the firm is saying they could NEVER see me working for them. 2 relatively negative reviews (out of 6 assignments) sunk me. Never told exactly what it was about my work product. Fuck.....

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sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby sunynp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:21 pm

rayiner wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:
w2e wrote:This is laughable. Come back and write about retention once you are actually an associate at the firm instead of reciting the pretty picture the firm fed you as a summer.


you're joking, right?

do you know how hard it is to find good midlevels (not just bodies, good ones or even tolerable ones)?


You can't let cyncicism replace rational thought. Firms need midlevels. They're extremely profitable for the firm. Headhunters charge a ton of money for every lateral hire they deliver. Also, when there is a vacancy there is an opportunity cost of foregone billing. That's why they care about retention, in the aggregate. That's why they pay bonuses. Otherwise there would be no reason to pay bonuses. They don't do it out of the kindness of their heart.

Well, not paying spring bonuses was an important factor in reducing firm expenses. Firms don't have to worry about holding on to laterals when there is no real demand from other firms. People do have to care a bit about mid-level associates because they fired so many people that their classes are small.
But the work and demand for big law remains close to what it was 2 years ago. Firms are being heavier pressured to cut fees. I think in this market the partners don't care about about keeping midlevels happy because there arent that many better jobs opening up.

hoi polloi
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:26 pm

Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby hoi polloi » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1L SA here no offered at V100 due to work product issues. Although I'm not in the same position as many of you are in this thread as 2L's, the feeling fucking sucks. It's REALLY hard for me not to think this is a reflection of the type of attorney I will be. I mean, to get no offered bc of work product seems to me the firm is saying they could NEVER see me working for them. 2 relatively negative reviews (out of 6 assignments) sunk me. Never told exactly what it was about my work product. Fuck.....


Shit, sorry man. Did you ask for a cold offer in case people ask during OCI?

lukertin
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:16 am

Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby lukertin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:03 pm

Lol.

That's all I have to say.




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