No-offered summer associate. FML Forum

[Old Gregg]

I have the first part of your problem (at a V50), I would give an arm to have the blow to my ego of settling for a V100.

True. I realize I'm "lucky" but going to a T-6 school and having the opportunity at a V10 I fail like an absolute failure.

Also no-offered by Latham. Would happily take a v100 at this point.

i was there last summer - people did some ridiculous things/had a few bad reviews and still got offers. what was the reason given?

Grades.[/quote]

I'm sorry man, because THAT'S TTT. Latham doesn't give two shits about grades.

What a load. I'm really sorry that this had to happen to you. It's almost as bad as Schulte or Linklaters no-offering someone on the basis of grades.

[Anonymous User]

Schulte is known for no offering cuz of grades?

[somewhatwayward]

^
But why is it TTT to no offer someone for grades but not for one bad review? Getting good grades is your job as a law student and you fucked it up.

[Old Gregg]

Schulte is known for no offering cuz of grades?

No. I say that because firms like Schulte and Linklaters really don't care about grades, and for them to no-offer on that basis is just a blatant lie.

Just like Latham: They don't really care about grades.

[Anonymous User]

Schulte is known for no offering cuz of grades?

No. I say that because firms like Schulte and Linklaters really don't care about grades, and for them to no-offer on that basis is just a blatant lie.

Just like Latham: They don't really care about grades.

After getting a SA job right?

[Old Gregg]

^
But why is it TTT to no offer someone for grades but not for one bad review? Getting good grades is your job as a law student and you fucked it up.

Because if you were top 30% when hired and median when no-offered, and you have a law school classmate at same firm who got an offered but was at median when hired, it makes no sense.

And yes, Latham will go below median.

[Old Gregg]

Schulte is known for no offering cuz of grades?

No. I say that because firms like Schulte and Linklaters really don't care about grades, and for them to no-offer on that basis is just a blatant lie.

Just like Latham: They don't really care about grades.

After getting a SA job right?

No, talking about getting the SA job in the first place. None of these firms are that selective.

It would made sense if S&C was like "well oh shit you were top 10% but are now median, we can't give you an offer."

But when a firm routinely dips below median, any claim to caring about grades just screams dishonesty.

[Anonymous User]

True. I realize I'm "lucky" but going to a T-6 school and having the opportunity at a V10 I fail like an absolute failure.

Also no-offered by Latham. Would happily take a v100 at this point.

i was there last summer - people did some ridiculous things/had a few bad reviews and still got offers. what was the reason given?

Grades.

I'm sorry man, because THAT'S TTT. Latham doesn't give two shits about grades.

What a load. I'm really sorry that this had to happen to you. It's almost as bad as Schulte or Linklaters no-offering someone on the basis of grades.[/quote]

Yeah, I know they're full of shit, but that's all the would tell me. My grades were fine too, top 40% or so 2L year.

[Anonymous User]

there always was and always will be unreasonable and/or pretextual no-offers. however, for the vast majority of cases, its completely the SA's fault. on a message board like this, it may seem like all no offers were pretextual/unreasonable merely because we're getting one side of the story - the SAs who can't possibly fathom that they're not cut out to do the work required at a firm.

look, you're at a firm for around 10 weeks. you're not doing either the amount or level of work required as an associate. there's really no excuse for fucking up even one assignment.

[TTH]

look, you're at a firm for around 10 weeks. you're not doing either the amount or level of work required as an associate. there's really no excuse for fucking up even one assignment.

I don't know about that, man. That's assuming that every lawyer who ever gives a project to a summer is always absolutely right that the project is at the right level for the summer and feasible to do in the time required. One bad review shoudn't sink someone. People make mistakes, especially law students who are freaking the fuck out everyday that every word they type or conversation they have is being scrutinized.

[Anonymous User]

Grades.

latham summer from a few years back here and calling bullshit on this. latham's offer rates are 90%+ - hiring one or two additional summers aren't going to make a dent financially and they're not going to no offer someone that's going to be a good associate because of grades. more likely you fucked up at an event or did shitty work.

[sadsituationJD]

What a sorry fucking industry the law is. Even the most TTT doctor from some offshore med school has 1000X the prestige among laypeople as you paper pushers.

Hard to imagine anyone being so "invested" in a makework job that just shoves bale upon endless bale of cut n' pasted shitpaper from one side of a table to the other.

What's even funnier is the fact that by the time you graduate law school, most of your "offers" will have been rescinded and many of these dumps will be closing down. That's what happens when your business provides nothing of value.

[Anonymous User]

Grades.

latham summer from a few years back here and calling bullshit on this. latham's offer rates are 90%+ - hiring one or two additional summers aren't going to make a dent financially and they're not going to no offer someone that's going to be a good associate because of grades. more likely you fucked up at an event or did shitty work.

lol didn't happen. I tried calling b.s. on it too, but no dice

[Anonymous User]

Grades.

latham summer from a few years back here and calling bullshit on this. latham's offer rates are 90%+ - hiring one or two additional summers aren't going to make a dent financially and they're not going to no offer someone that's going to be a good associate because of grades. more likely you fucked up at an event or did shitty work.

lol didn't happen. I tried calling b.s. on it too, but no dice

poster from above here. that just seems ridiculous - we were pretty explicitly told that grades do not matter and i know several people in my class with pretty dramatic grade drops that got offers.

[Anonymous User]

Grades.

latham summer from a few years back here and calling bullshit on this. latham's offer rates are 90%+ - hiring one or two additional summers aren't going to make a dent financially and they're not going to no offer someone that's going to be a good associate because of grades. more likely you fucked up at an event or did shitty work.

lol didn't happen. I tried calling b.s. on it too, but no dice

poster from above here. that just seems ridiculous - we were pretty explicitly told that grades do not matter and i know several people in my class with pretty dramatic grade drops that got offers.

I agree. It was ridiculous. I'd heard the same thing so I almost thought they were joking when they told me.

[09042014]

I'm assuming these firms are just making excuses for either 1) fit / personality issues or 2) financial.

[romothesavior]

look, you're at a firm for around 10 weeks. you're not doing either the amount or level of work required as an associate. there's really no excuse for fucking up even one assignment.

I don't know about that, man. That's assuming that every lawyer who ever gives a project to a summer is always absolutely right that the project is at the right level for the summer and feasible to do in the time required. One bad review shoudn't sink someone. People make mistakes, especially law students who are freaking the fuck out everyday that every word they type or conversation they have is being scrutinized.

+1. I don't know shit about practicing law, and most lawyers don't exactly go out of their way to provide feedback and help SAs grow. Say I did something wrong for Lawyer 1, but he doesn't care and corrects it himself, doesn't say anything, and gives me a great review. I do the same thing for Lawyer 2, and he rips me a new asshole because of it. Is that my fault? No way.

And I know that you young associates can vouch for some partners being really laid back and others being irrational, hyper-critical, etc. If there is a major issue with work (dude can't write, comes to the wrong conclusion in a memo, etc.), then we've got issues, but one bad review really shouldn't sink an SA, especially if the other reviews are solid and the summer fit in well at the firm.

I do agree with Fresh Prince though... I don't doubt some people got screwed, but some of the people claiming to have gotten screwed probably just didn't pan out, and should really think critically about why they had the result they did.

[romothesavior]

What a sorry fucking industry the law is. Even the most TTT doctor from some offshore med school has 1000X the prestige among laypeople as you paper pushers.

Hard to imagine anyone being so "invested" in a makework job that just shoves bale upon endless bale of cut n' pasted shitpaper from one side of a table to the other.

What's even funnier is the fact that by the time you graduate law school, most of your "offers" will have been rescinded and many of these dumps will be closing down. That's what happens when your business provides nothing of value.

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[somewhatwayward]

There are pretty much no kids in my class that were well below median (bottom 20%) that got biglaw, unless their uncle is a partner, they were ibankers, or they were IP. Even then, I had friends struggle till the last week in october before they got something. I have a friend who networked his ass off, got callbacks at huge nyc firms with shit grades and had multiple hiring partners call him to say that everyone really liked him, but that unless he has a legit reason, his grades just dont cut it. I honestly think you are dead wrong and I think it's easy to say this when you have the luxury of an IP gig or you worked for a client of the firm for 3 years.

Yeah it's the same at my top 10. And I really appreciate that you didn't throw in URM onto that exception list--it shows that you're probably a 3L or a grad. FYI I had interviewers/partners tell me the EXACT same thing--except that there really was no legit reason excuse exception allowed. Hell I know people who were dropped AFTER summering because of GPA decreases.

look, man, you are extrapolating from your own experience onto everyone. it's not like bottom 20% is a rosy place to be for anyone, but 92% of people got offers at EIP at CLS last year. that (obviously) included some some bottom 20% people. (yes, not everyone did EIP but lots of the people who opted out were people with median or better grades who wanted PI or gov).

and URM can help below median people. i personally know three URMs at CLS who were bottom 20% after 1L who landed V100 jobs (two of them V50). yes, anecdotes are anecdotes, but if your blanket statements were true, then these people would've had no hope because these were below supposed hard cutoffs.

[Anonymous User]

there always was and always will be unreasonable and/or pretextual no-offers. however, for the vast majority of cases, its completely the SA's fault. on a message board like this, it may seem like all no offers were pretextual/unreasonable merely because we're getting one side of the story - the SAs who can't possibly fathom that they're not cut out to do the work required at a firm.

look, you're at a firm for around 10 weeks. you're not doing either the amount or level of work required as an associate. there's really no excuse for fucking up even one assignment.

I am a poster from before who got no-offered. You might well be right, but at least in my case the problem is twofold: 1) I was never told I fucked up on anything until end of the summer, 2) the firm consistently represented that everyone would get offers so long as we just did our work ok.

What gets me is that even if I did really screw up (which I don't think is the case, but whatever) I should at least have had a chance to improve. How can you really make a big change if everyone is telling you that your writing is great and "better than mine when I was a summer?"

If the summer program was presented as an extended job interview where no promises were made, then I would have made a huge effort to get all possible feedback and would have worked a lot more than I did. When everyone is told they will get an offer and you are getting good feedback, why would you ask any questions? I seems natural that an associate would bring serious problems to your attention ASAP.

[Anonymous User]

there always was and always will be unreasonable and/or pretextual no-offers. however, for the vast majority of cases, its completely the SA's fault. on a message board like this, it may seem like all no offers were pretextual/unreasonable merely because we're getting one side of the story - the SAs who can't possibly fathom that they're not cut out to do the work required at a firm.

look, you're at a firm for around 10 weeks. you're not doing either the amount or level of work required as an associate. there's really no excuse for fucking up even one assignment.

I am a poster from before who got no-offered. You might well be right, but at least in my case the problem is twofold: 1) I was never told I fucked up on anything until end of the summer, 2) the firm consistently represented that everyone would get offers so long as we just did our work ok.

What gets me is that even if I did really screw up (which I don't think is the case, but whatever) I should at least have had a chance to improve. How can you really make a big change if everyone is telling you that your writing is great and "better than mine when I was a summer?"

If the summer program was presented as an extended job interview where no promises were made, then I would have made a huge effort to get all possible feedback and would have worked a lot more than I did. When everyone is told they will get an offer and you are getting good feedback, why would you ask any questions? I seems natural that an associate would bring serious problems to your attention ASAP.

Same exact thing happened here.

[fatduck]

sounds like it was a trap

[09042014]

sounds like it was a trap

Or the work product issue is an excuse.

[keg411]

sounds like it was a trap

Or the work product issue is an excuse.

What incentives do firms really have to lie about a no-offer, though? The only one I can think of is over-hiring and financial struggles; but even that reason sounds less TTT then those who claimed to be no-offered for grades at non-grade-selective firms.

[fatduck]

sounds like it was a trap

Or the work product issue is an excuse.

What incentives do firms really have to lie about a no-offer, though? The only one I can think of is over-hiring and financial struggles; but even that reason sounds less TTT then those who claimed to be no-offered for grades at non-grade-selective firms.

well apparently they told the SAs that an offer was virtually guaranteed as long as you don't fuck up, so they probably don't want to ruin that reputation by no-offering people for "fit"