No-offered summer associate. FML

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romothesavior
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:51 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Texas is a different story. There economy is just in another world from the rest of the country. I'm going to take a lot of heat for this but I'm going to say it anyway. In this economy UT is a better school than about half of the top 14. Getting a job is about more than a school's nationwide reputation and prestige. Because of the Texas job economy, the way that Texas treats UT, and the way that they treat people with no ties to the state that don't attend a Texas school, and the COL in Texas, UT is better than some of the top 14.

For someone who is accusing others of talking out their ass, you sure do like to do it yourself. Your argument is objectively incorrect based on the job data available to us.

Knock yourself out:

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLS

Sure, if you're from Texas and/or have a big scholarship, then maybe. But all things being equal, UT is not better for jobs than the T14.

keg411
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby keg411 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:57 pm

w2e wrote:
keg411 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:There have been a lot of rumors about Paul Hastings in the last six months or so. I know it's probably of little consolation, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the next firm to go the direction Greenberg Traurig appears to be heading now.

What direction might that be? I don't know a ton about GT.


I haven't heard anything about major issues at GT and I do know a bit about them. Checked to see if there was anything on ATL today and came up with nothing.


The GT capital call was big news in the legal community. Don't see how anyone could have missed it. Sign up for American Lawyer updates. Anyone who summered there should be doing 3L OCI.


I just know someone who works there and haven't talked to that person since before the capital call. I didn't summer there and I haven't read AmLaw/ATL lately (though I have a google alert set up for my own firm in case something pops up).

ETA: On the other topics, people in the top 10-20% of T14's that strike out is totally on them and has nothing to do with law school. It has to do with being a total SPS interviewer and not doing everything possible both pre- and post-OCI to fix it. (And I say this as someone who was a SPS interviewer myself).
Last edited by keg411 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The PH firmwide fake memo thing has been going on for years.

This is true, and needs to be given more context.

Basically, there is no expectation or requirement to do any client work during the first week of the summer. Monday-Wednesday is basically all orientation and long lunches. On Wednesday afternoon, they have a writing workshop where the PH format for different documents is discussed, and this "fake" assignment is given, which is to be worked on during Thursday and Friday of that first week. The assignment is just asking each summer to write a memo to a partner using provided cases. Everyone knows that it's not for a client; the firm just wants to see how well you write, which considering how much you write as an associate, it's not an unreasonable position for the firm to take. I personally found it pretty easy to do, and you shouldn't be worried about it unless you actually are a terrible writer. A few weeks after the assignment is due you meet with one of the firm's senior partners to discuss it. At least in the NYC office, everyone was actually given constructive criticism, and overall, it was not that big a deal.

As for the no-offers, while definitely unfortunate for those being affected, if you look at the past few year's NALP forms, you'll see that PH typically no-offers ~5 out of ~100 firmwide summer associates. Ever since 2009 they have conservatively hired summers in order to be able to give offers to everyone, but they clearly will no-offer you if there is a fit or work product issue, and they do not shy away from that fact by giving cold offers. The no-offers are not based on economics (the difference between 95 new associates and 100 is negligible at best), but merely based on the summer's work and fit with the firm. Sorry if you're upset that PH isn't like some other biglaw firms that give 100% offers year after year (even if some are cold offers), but you should have know that going in by doing basic research.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 pm

^
It just seems kind of lousy to no offer the people in this thread who (if theyare tellimg the truth) had one bad review or botched assignment and then turn around and hire 3Ls.

keg411
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby keg411 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:06 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:^
It just seems kind of lousy to no offer the people in this thread who (if theyare tellimg the truth) had one bad review or botched assignment and then turn around and hire 3Ls.


I agree with this somewhat. However, I think it depends on how egregious the individual screw-ups are and if the bad reviews are based on something fixable/subjective or more indicative of a more serious problem. Additionally, it seems like some firms did appear to over-hire this past year and may have just needed a way of weeding a few people out; whether it was work-product or "fit" or just pure luck.

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BruceWayne
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:11 pm

romothesavior wrote:For someone who is accusing others of talking out their ass, you sure do like to do it yourself. Your argument is objectively incorrect based on the job data available to us. Knock yourself out:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLSSure, if you're from Texas and/or have a big scholarship, then maybe. But all things being equal, UT is not better for jobs than the T14.


Way to address the part of my post not addressed at you--that even specified that UT is better than some--not all of the top 14 when taking everything into consideration. I.e I'm talking about doing things like working for small firms etc. not just biglaw. Plus keep in mind that many of the top 14 employ a large number of their grads themsleves via the PI fellowships. That chart counts those as real jobs.

The bottom line is that you're pushing bullshit with the "most people at top 14's" get jobs schtick. Although later on you modified that to saying that top of the class not getting jobs at a top 14 is their own fault. But how in the hell you equate the former to the latter I don't know.

09042014
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby 09042014 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:13 pm

I heard Dallas is TTT as fuck right now.

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romothesavior
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby romothesavior » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:25 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The bottom line is that you're pushing bullshit with the "most people at top 14's" get jobs schtick. Although later on you modified that to saying that top of the class not getting jobs at a top 14 is their own fault. But how in the hell you equate the former to the latter I don't know.

I didn't modify shit, nor did I equate anything. What thread are you reading, broheim? You are out in left field right now, and your statements about Texas >>> T14 for jobs are just objectively false. You said "UT is better than about half of the T14 right now." That is just an absurd claim to make, and LST and NLJ 250 both blow that up. The only school that's even arguably close is GULC.

Re: the bolded, most people at T14s do get jobs. That is incredibly non-controversial and is easily verified by the data. What the hell are you talking about? And in any case, that wasn't even my point. My point was stronger than that. I said that most people at T14s right now are landing SAs, not just jobs in general:
romothesavior wrote: At the T14 right now, the recovery has gotten to a point where most people are landing SA jobs.

I base this off of multiple discussions with people on TLS, and not just "Oh yeah my friends all have jobs so we're good," but discussions where people have provided actual numbers. If you want to dispute this, be my guest, but I'm not going to engage in a dialogue with you if you are going to distort the very straightfoward things I'm saying.

Did I say go to a T14 at sticker? No. Was my statement an encouragement for anyone to go to law school right now? No. Check out my posting history in the Choosing a Law School Forum if you think my post was meant as encouragement to 0Ls to go to law school. Personally, I would not advise anyone to go a quarter of a million dollars in debt right now for a lower T14. My post was responding to sadsituation and Aqualibrium, that's it.

uchi12
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby uchi12 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:28 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
romothesavior wrote:For someone who is accusing others of talking out their ass, you sure do like to do it yourself. Your argument is objectively incorrect based on the job data available to us. Knock yourself out:http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLSSure, if you're from Texas and/or have a big scholarship, then maybe. But all things being equal, UT is not better for jobs than the T14.


Way to address the part of my post not addressed at you--that even specified that UT is better than some--not all of the top 14 when taking everything into consideration. I.e I'm talking about doing things like working for small firms etc. not just biglaw. Plus keep in mind that many of the top 14 employ a large number of their grads themsleves via the PI fellowships. That chart counts those as real jobs.

The bottom line is that you're pushing bullshit with the "most people at top 14's" get jobs schtick. Although later on you modified that to saying that top of the class not getting jobs at a top 14 is their own fault. But how in the hell you equate the former to the latter I don't know.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=191248&start=50#p5793033
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=190574
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186723&start=25#p5756540

Bruce shut up and stop mucking up this site with your angry anti-t14 sentiments. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

0L has been warned.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Stanford4Me » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Texas is a different story. There economy is just in another world from the rest of the country. I'm going to take a lot of heat for this but I'm going to say it anyway. In this economy UT is a better school than about half of the top 14. Getting a job is about more than a school's nationwide reputation and prestige. Because of the Texas job economy, the way that Texas treats UT, and the way that they treat people with no ties to the state that don't attend a Texas school, and the COL in Texas, UT is better than some of the top 14.

For someone who is accusing others of talking out their ass, you sure do like to do it yourself. Your argument is objectively incorrect based on the job data available to us.

Knock yourself out:

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLS

Sure, if you're from Texas and/or have a big scholarship, then maybe. But all things being equal, UT is not better for jobs than the T14.

+1

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:46 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:
IAFG wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:

PLEASE stop posting this king of TLS hearsay garbage--because it's NOT TRUE and it helps to convince people to make very bad decisions.

:?: I can say with confidence MOST people in my section got an SA at a market-paying firm.


I can say with confidence that I KNOW kids in the top 20% at T-10's that didnt get any firm offers. Shit isnt that great, but its better than it was a few years ago. If anything its going to get much, much worse in the coming months (i.e. the entire eurozone is fucked beyond belief)


And I know kids from my class who were well below median and got market or near-market jobs. If there is a TLS myth on this thread, it's the idea that firms care so much more about grades that they do. There is no sufficient level of grades that guarantee big law, and the necessary level, when you have everything else going for you, is quite low indeed.

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:50 pm

Let's ponder this for a second, everyone. 3 no hires out of 8. Of those 3, we have one with a Fed Clerkship/law review/moot court, one who is Editor in Chief of his schools law review (not giving school), and one a JD/MBA student. The 5 that were offered were able to go to work for the firm right after they graduated; the 3 that weren't, for one reason or another, were not going to be available till 2014. All no hires were given excellent reviews and said it wasn't a "fit" issue. Not giving firm or market, to protect the innocent. What do you think?

keg411
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby keg411 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Let's ponder this for a second, everyone. 3 no hires out of 8. Of those 3, we have one with a Fed Clerkship/law review/moot court, one who is Editor in Chief of his schools law review (not giving school), and one a JD/MBA student. The 5 that were offered were able to go to work for the firm right after they graduated; the 3 that weren't, for one reason or another, were not going to be available till 2014. All no hires were given excellent reviews and said it wasn't a "fit" issue. Not giving firm or market, to protect the innocent. What do you think?


I could see how all three of the people you described could be no-offered for "fit" as opposed to work product.

nouseforaname123
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby nouseforaname123 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:32 pm

uchi12 wrote:Bruce shut up and stop mucking up this site with your angry anti-t14 sentiments. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.


GTFO, 0L.

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bk1
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby bk1 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:38 pm

nouseforaname123 wrote:
uchi12 wrote:Bruce shut up and stop mucking up this site with your angry anti-t14 sentiments. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.


GTFO, 0L.


You reported his post, leave it at that. Don't unnecessarily clutter the forums when a report will suffice.

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sunynp
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby sunynp » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:53 pm

I dont believe that it is true that top 20% people who don't get jobs it is on them. People get a lot of bad advice in bidding and in other aspects of hiring. I don't for a second believe that every t14 top20% student could have landed an SA. Hiring is much more complex than simply having grades means you get a big law job. I don't think people are not getting SA simply because they are bad interviewers.

I wish there was data that corralated class rank with getting big law.

How many big law SAs were there this past summer? Is that published or do we need to add it up ourselves?

Eta: sorry if this is off- topic. I wanted to answer some of the generalizations here with my own opinion.

No-offered SAs- keep your head up and keep going.

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:01 pm

Well one of the partners I worked with a lot this summer just reached out to me to schedule a phone call to brainstorm possible openings. He's well connected in his practice area, so maybe I'll get some leads out of this :|

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rayiner
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:02 pm

sunynp wrote:I dont believe that it is true that top 20% people who don't get jobs it is on them. People get a lot of bad advice in bidding and in other aspects of hiring. I don't for a second believe that every t14 top20% student could have landed an SA. Hiring is much more complex than simply having grades means you get a big law job. I don't think people are not getting SA simply because they are bad interviewers.

I wish there was data that corralated class rank with getting big law.

How many big law SAs were there this past summer? Is that published or do we need to add it up ourselves?

Eta: sorry if this is off- topic. I wanted to answer some of the generalizations here with my own opinion.

No-offered SAs- keep your head up and keep going.


I mean, it's not their grades or school. It might be bidding (e.g. DC or bust) but that's them too.

de5igual
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby de5igual » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I heard Dallas is TTT as fuck right now.


why do you say that?

Anonymous User
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:25 pm

rayiner wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:
IAFG wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:

PLEASE stop posting this king of TLS hearsay garbage--because it's NOT TRUE and it helps to convince people to make very bad decisions.

:?: I can say with confidence MOST people in my section got an SA at a market-paying firm.


I can say with confidence that I KNOW kids in the top 20% at T-10's that didnt get any firm offers. Shit isnt that great, but its better than it was a few years ago. If anything its going to get much, much worse in the coming months (i.e. the entire eurozone is fucked beyond belief)


And I know kids from my class who were well below median and got market or near-market jobs. If there is a TLS myth on this thread, it's the idea that firms care so much more about grades that they do. There is no sufficient level of grades that guarantee big law, and the necessary level, when you have everything else going for you, is quite low indeed.



There are pretty much no kids in my class that were well below median (bottom 20%) that got biglaw, unless their uncle is a partner, they were ibankers, or they were IP. Even then, I had friends struggle till the last week in october before they got something. I have a friend who networked his ass off, got callbacks at huge nyc firms with shit grades and had multiple hiring partners call him to say that everyone really liked him, but that unless he has a legit reason, his grades just dont cut it. I honestly think you are dead wrong and I think it's easy to say this when you have the luxury of an IP gig or you worked for a client of the firm for 3 years.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:
IAFG wrote:
I can say with confidence that I KNOW kids in the top 20% at T-10's that didnt get any firm offers. Shit isnt that great, but its better than it was a few years ago. If anything its going to get much, much worse in the coming months (i.e. the entire eurozone is fucked beyond belief)


And I know kids from my class who were well below median and got market or near-market jobs. If there is a TLS myth on this thread, it's the idea that firms care so much more about grades that they do. There is no sufficient level of grades that guarantee big law, and the necessary level, when you have everything else going for you, is quite low indeed.



There are pretty much no kids in my class that were well below median (bottom 20%) that got biglaw, unless their uncle is a partner, they were ibankers, or they were IP. Even then, I had friends struggle till the last week in october before they got something. I have a friend who networked his ass off, got callbacks at huge nyc firms with shit grades and had multiple hiring partners call him to say that everyone really liked him, but that unless he has a legit reason, his grades just dont cut it. I honestly think you are dead wrong and I think it's easy to say this when you have the luxury of an IP gig or you worked for a client of the firm for 3 years.


Two of my friends and I are all bottom 20-25 percenters at NDCG. We all have biglaw jobs. I in fact had 8 callbacks from my 2011 OCI and 2 more from mass-mailing. I am not a URM, has no connections whatsoever to biglaw, and had no meaningful job experience. I do not have an offer now because my firm does not give any offers until Sept., but the general market is not bad.

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quakeroats
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby quakeroats » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:17 pm

rayiner wrote:
sunynp wrote:I dont believe that it is true that top 20% people who don't get jobs it is on them. People get a lot of bad advice in bidding and in other aspects of hiring. I don't for a second believe that every t14 top20% student could have landed an SA. Hiring is much more complex than simply having grades means you get a big law job. I don't think people are not getting SA simply because they are bad interviewers.

I wish there was data that corralated class rank with getting big law.

How many big law SAs were there this past summer? Is that published or do we need to add it up ourselves?

Eta: sorry if this is off- topic. I wanted to answer some of the generalizations here with my own opinion.

No-offered SAs- keep your head up and keep going.


I mean, it's not their grades or school. It might be bidding (e.g. DC or bust) but that's them too.


It's quite possible. The most common OCI strategy is still do what you feel.

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bk1
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby bk1 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:28 pm

quakeroats wrote:It's quite possible. The most common OCI strategy is still do what you feel.


Going through OCI now and seeing it first hand, the amount of people who still do this kind of shocks me.

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quakeroats
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby quakeroats » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:47 pm

bk1 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:It's quite possible. The most common OCI strategy is still do what you feel.


Going through OCI now and seeing it first hand, the amount of people who still do this kind of shocks me.


It wouldn't be a big issue if more students had a taste for the work large law firms actually do. There's a dangerous trifecta of great grades, lack of commercial sensibility, and inexperience that gets a number of students every year. Even those who successfully navigate OCI and get an offer are going to be driven out a year or two after starting.

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thesealocust
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby thesealocust » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:49 pm

quakeroats wrote:
bk1 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:It's quite possible. The most common OCI strategy is still do what you feel.


Going through OCI now and seeing it first hand, the amount of people who still do this kind of shocks me.


It wouldn't be a big issue if more students had a taste for the work large law firms actually do. There's a dangerous trifecta of great grades, lack of commercial sensibility, and inexperience that gets a number of students every year. Even those who successfully navigate OCI and get an offer are going to be driven out a year or two after starting.


Very true.

In other news: I am agreeing with quakeroats on TLS. What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards bethlehem to be born?




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