No-offered summer associate. FML

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ToTransferOrNot
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:03 pm

lol at flcath trying to equate forging transcripts and so on with no-offering for fit.

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5ky
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby 5ky » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:47 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
5ky wrote:
flcath wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think the point is that no- offering for fit is not arbitrary.

It's a solid reason to not hire post-CB (or screener), but not to no-offer.

Same thing with grades. They had an opportunity to judge you for grades before you came in; they shouldn't decide on the back end that your post-1L GPA wasn't good enough. The difference, obviously, is that grades can be determined with 100% accuracy on the front end, while there's some imprecision in determining fit. That's cause for improving your screener/CB process, not no-offering SAs.

I guess it's moot anyway. It's up to each firm to do whatever it wants to do, just like its up to each individual to decide whether to forge transcripts/resumes or fuck over a firm after getting no-offered or fired.


Law firms don't owe you shit, I suggest you curtail your entitled attitude.



Fuck you dude. Law firms may not owe him shit, but shame on you for being a dick to someone whose position you could easily be in, and where you would probably be at least as much of a bitch about it. Fuck you.


huh? flcath clearly hadn't been no-offered, and i was responding to his/her claims that it was inappropriate for firms to no-offer for fit and grade-based reasons, especially the comments about forging your transcript.

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Loose Seal
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Loose Seal » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:00 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Why do people keep insinuating/stating that a firm has "screwed you over" if they no offer you for cause (poor fit/poor performance relative to firm standards and others in your class)?

You're being screwed over if a firm that knew it couldn't or wouldnt hire you or would have more summers than they could/would hire, brought you on as a summer associate without revealing this information to you after you asked.


I agree with this, but I'm not sure I would have seen it from this perspective as a law student.

I'm only a first-year associate, so this past summer was the first summer I got to experience a law firm summer program from the other side. I think, as a 2L, I assumed that anybody who would have done well enough in school to get a summer offer at my firm or peer firms surely would have produced good enough work product to get a permanent offer, especially once you account for the fact that law students in general are just not as capable as they will be after a few months of experience.

That is not universally the case. Based on conversations with friends at other firms and in other offices of my firm, there are some summers who --- despite excellent grades and credentials --- just DO NOT produce good work. They miss the point of assignments, turn things in late, or just do not operate well under time pressure. These are not necessarily the kind of things you can ascertain during a callback, but bringing someone onboard permanently who has these kinds of liabilities is no good for the firm, not fair to the summer, and definitely not fair to other associates who will either need to clean up the mess or share the heat for shoddy work.

IMO, it's one thing if a firm hires more summers than it can offer with the intent of weeding people out. It's another if every summer starts out with the presumption that they will get an offer unless they just can't do the work. I don't think it's fair to expect a firm to give someone an offer even in the face of ten weeks of poor performance just because they couldn't assess a person's work product in a two-hour callback.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:04 pm

This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).

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Loose Seal
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Loose Seal » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Fair enough, but I thought the advice was already here? Mass mail like a champion and apply for ALL TEH CLERKSHIPZ?

I think it's a valid discussion to be having, and how many times can the advice above be repeated? You'll be okay.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).



Wow, so sorry to hear that. Mind sharing how big of a drop it was? I am in a similar boat waiting to hear from a firm (secondary market).

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).



Wow, so sorry to hear that. Mind sharing how big of a drop it was? I am in a similar boat waiting to hear from a firm (secondary market).


Not big. Top 1/3rd or so grades 1L, top 40-45% or so 2L (lowest grade was a B). Tried to question it; got threatened. I shit you not.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ludo!
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Ludo! » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).


Wtf? That was the only reason?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:48 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).


Wtf? That was the only reason?


I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:People talk about firms that "historically give 100% offers" but I'm not sure which ones they are.

The ones that deliberately make their summers feel so proud to be part of such a prestigious firm, and so confident that they will absolutely get an offer unless they are truly worthless, that those who get screwed over at the end of the summer are too ashamed to tell anyone they were no-offered.


You're welcome.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).


Wtf? That was the only reason?


I'm sure it couldn't've been, but it was all they were willing to tell me. Very suspicious.


Yeah, definitely seems like "grades" is a CYA move by the firm. Some friends of mine who summered with V10s this summer got offers even before they turned in their updated transcripts. But still, that sucks, man. Hoping something else lines up for you. The way your summer firm handled your offer situation seems to indicate they wouldn't exactly be a great place to work at anyway.

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Lawquacious
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:31 pm

...

Aqualibrium
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
The way your summer firm handled your offer situation seems to indicate they wouldn't exactly be a great place to work at anyway.



I agree, but do most law students really care if a firm is a great place to work? They seem to only care about tw things: 1) the fact that it is a job 2) the fact that it pays money...seems like everything else is just an ancillary concern. I mean we've got a person in this thread who is raging against their summer firm for no offering them because of fit when that same person has already admitted that they pretended to be someone they weren't to get the job and then personally realized upon working at the job that they weren't at all like the people who worked at the firm...so even in the face of knowing they faked it to get in, personally realizing they didn't fit, and then being told by the firm that they didn't fit, this person would rather work at the firm and let everything else figure itself out because 1) it is a job and 2) it pays money.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:37 pm

5ky wrote:huh? flcath clearly hadn't been no-offered, and i was responding to his/her claims that it was inappropriate for firms to no-offer for fit and grade-based reasons, especially the comments about forging your transcript.



Sorry--rough night lol, I apologize. I don't always read these threads as carefully as I should and it sometimes gets me in trouble. However, your statement "firms don't owe you shit" in the general context of this thread didn't go over well with me--I got the impression that you were basically saying fuck you to anyone who may complain about getting no offered, even if you weren't saying it to someone directly. But my response was way over the top, and at least somewhat misplaced due to RC fail.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This thread has fast become useless for those of us facing the horrible reality of a no offer, and wanting advise on how to deal with it. I am not OP, but I don't think the thread was meant to be some theoretical discussion of the causes or ethics of a no offer.


Agreed. No-offered at v10 for "grades" (seriously).



Wow, so sorry to hear that. Mind sharing how big of a drop it was? I am in a similar boat waiting to hear from a firm (secondary market).


Not big. Top 1/3rd or so grades 1L, top 40-45% or so 2L (lowest grade was a B). Tried to question it; got threatened. I shit you not.


can you elaborate on "got threatened"?

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wow, so sorry to hear that. Mind sharing how big of a drop it was? I am in a similar boat waiting to hear from a firm (secondary market).


Not big. Top 1/3rd or so grades 1L, top 40-45% or so 2L (lowest grade was a B). Tried to question it; got threatened. I shit you not.


can you elaborate on "got threatened"?


Sure. Said they'd give me a good reference, threatened to give me a not so good reference if I tried to argue.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Final performance review they said there is a 50/50 chance of an offer. FML. Do I just withdraw before the no offer gets to me?


I was there last summer. It's tough. I didn't withdraw because I didn't honestly know that was an option (perhaps I should have consulted TLS!). How much time do you have before you find out? My firm took 3 (agonizing) weeks to get back to me. In the meantime I signed up for OCI and cried on the phone with OCS, because my grades were in the gutter and my life was over (it wasn't). I know it's super close to OCI right now, but if you can hustle for the next couple of weeks BEFORE you find out, then you can honestly say that you are exploring other options and your firm hasn't made decisions yet. In the end I ended up with an offer, so it all worked out but I spent 3 weeks knowing I wasn't going to get one, rather than not doing anything and hoping for one. I suggest approaching it like you've been no offered, only with the benefit of not having to say you didn't get one. Good luck. I hope you have good news soon.

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Old Gregg
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wow, so sorry to hear that. Mind sharing how big of a drop it was? I am in a similar boat waiting to hear from a firm (secondary market).


Not big. Top 1/3rd or so grades 1L, top 40-45% or so 2L (lowest grade was a B). Tried to question it; got threatened. I shit you not.


can you elaborate on "got threatened"?


Sure. Said they'd give me a good reference, threatened to give me a not so good reference if I tried to argue.


You should have argued, IMO. Good reference is worthless when you don't have an offer.

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Rurik
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Rurik » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:44 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:that same person has already admitted that they pretended to be someone they weren't to get the job


Image

flcath
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby flcath » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:29 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:I mean we've got a person in this thread who is raging against their summer firm for no offering them because of fit when that same person has already admitted that they pretended to be someone they weren't to get the job and then personally realized upon working at the job that they weren't at all like the people who worked at the firm...

I haven't been no-offered (I assume this is about me), and look, I really don't believe most people behave the same way in an interview as they will over the course of their job. I could be wrong, but law isn't my first job either. I'm not even a great interviewer generally, but with this particular firm, I just so happened to nail it; obviously my personality is more mundane than my interview would suggest. If you believe that keep-to-themselves people can make it in law generally, then I think you pretty much have to agree with this proposition (since you really can't be a keep-to-yourself person in an interview).

Equating it with forging transcripts is off-the-wall, though I'm not sure some of the other stuff is (saying you got an offer if you know your no-offering firm won't deny it, reneging on an accepted offer, etc.); I just genuinely find it odd to see this free-market mentality on the same board that talks about how you owe the firm all these loyalties.



Anyway, the thread derailment obviously went far beyond my handful of posts; my bad. On-point question: if you split your summer b/t a BL firm and a (relatively) high-end unpaid gov't/PI job, would you recommend leaving your BL job off the resume if you get no-offered? When applying to firms? When applying to gov't/PI?

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El_Sol
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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby El_Sol » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:57 pm

This is the problem with people going to law school straight from undergrad...

Law firms are businesses. They have financial statements as other businesses where they want Revenue to be higher than Expenses. Sometimes law firms over-staff their summer associates and they have to cut some of them.

Yes, life is unfair. Law firms may act unfairly. But, this happens in every business. It won't be the first time you get cut. People with no-offer should be hustling and applying to clerkships, mid-size, small-size firms etc... Not starting your law career in big law is not the end of the world.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Another no-offered summer associate checking in. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do (aside from hustling my ass off, of course).

El_Sol wrote:This is the problem with people going to law school straight from undergrad...

Law firms are businesses. They have financial statements as other businesses where they want Revenue to be higher than Expenses. Sometimes law firms over-staff their summer associates and they have to cut some of them.

Yes, life is unfair. Law firms may act unfairly. But, this happens in every business. It won't be the first time you get cut. People with no-offer should be hustling and applying to clerkships, mid-size, small-size firms etc... Not starting your law career in big law is not the end of the world.


I don't think anyone's denying that firings/layoffs are part of life, but that doesn't make it suck any less.

Think of it this way: A typical fired person has at least a fighting chance of landing a comparable job elsewhere. (I have a family member who was fired and landed a director-of-department position at a different company - a pretty big promotion, really.) They're also debt-free (or at least not completely buried under debt). A no-offered summer associate, on the other hand, has almost no chance of landing a comparable job, since big firms simply don't recruit that way (with some exceptions, they generally hire 2Ls). The next-best alternative is a small- or mid-sized firm (80k/yr), or perhaps a government (60k/yr) or public interest (40-50k/yr) job. This assumes that the student can land a job in the near term at all. Also, by the time a student reaches 3L year, they could be as much as 100-200k in debt (don't forget to add 20k+ in interest that they'll have to pay back as well).

Yes, life is unfair. Yes, shit happens. But that doesn't make this situation any less shitty.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Final performance review they said there is a 50/50 chance of an offer. FML. Do I just withdraw before the no offer gets to me?


I was there last summer. It's tough. I didn't withdraw because I didn't honestly know that was an option (perhaps I should have consulted TLS!). How much time do you have before you find out? My firm took 3 (agonizing) weeks to get back to me. In the meantime I signed up for OCI and cried on the phone with OCS, because my grades were in the gutter and my life was over (it wasn't). I know it's super close to OCI right now, but if you can hustle for the next couple of weeks BEFORE you find out, then you can honestly say that you are exploring other options and your firm hasn't made decisions yet. In the end I ended up with an offer, so it all worked out but I spent 3 weeks knowing I wasn't going to get one, rather than not doing anything and hoping for one. I suggest approaching it like you've been no offered, only with the benefit of not having to say you didn't get one. Good luck. I hope you have good news soon.


Looks like I'll at least get a cold offer from the firm and the hiring partner said it still looks like a 50/50 shot, so not to worry too much (as if!). He advised against withdrawing because of the likelihood of the cold offer, but was glad I was so proactive in negotiating in advance. Already hustling OCI and might have some solid things on the table.

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Re: No-offered summer associate. FML

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:18 pm

+1 here as well...sucks because they made it seem like everyone would be getting an offer on the last day. Is it ok to ask them to change a no offer to a cold offer?




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