T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

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HeavenWood
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:43 am

Perseus_I wrote:I wish we could be more precise. Not all regional schools are created equal, and regional schools that coexist in the same market as T14's are at a significant disadvantage.

By "regional schools," are we talking about T1's that only place in one market that may have many other T1's or T14's (Illinois, Cardozo, or UC Davis), or are we talking about flagship state schools like Arkansas-Fayetville, UGA, IUB, Ole Miss, Alabama, or UT?

I think there's a huge difference. The ability of the latter to compete with T14 graduates is significantly better than the ability of the former to do so. In Texas, a UT grad at median will not have significantly worse chances than a non-HYSCCN T14 at median (both are pretty screwed). I talked to a Big Law partner in Dallas when I was looking at law schools who did not know that UofC was a top school. (HYS is a different story). In California, by contrast, no one is under any illusion that all the dozens of "Tier 1" UC's outrank Stanford or Berkeley.

Texas big law firms are extremely forgiving of below-median Penn students with strong Texas ties. I also doubt Penn is the only non-T6 T14 to which this applies.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:17 am

uchi12 wrote:ITT Bruce is butthurt because he can't interview.


I can PM you the data if you want. I know one thing; a below median Chicago student who wants to work in Atlanta is going to be real butthurt when he sees that GPA data. I remember seeing info on how deep into the class firms were going at UChicago one time on autoadmit and I was stunned. It's like it wasn't any better than Georgetown outside of New York and Texas (and the latter likely only applied to students with ties).

Texas big law firms are extremely forgiving of below-median Penn students with strong Texas ties. I also doubt Penn is the only non-T6 T14 to which this applies.


That's what I was saying earlier based off of the data. For some reason Texas seems like the only secondary market that is really forgiving of median and below at a top 14--although I think it only applies to people from Texas. They're not like the Midwest or the South.

Anonymous User
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:52 am

Wanted to bring an informed counter to Bruce's argument. His conclusions aren't entirely unreasonable, but his level of vehemence is given the relative lack of good data. There is data on who is hired, but not so much on who is offered. Plus, most data is fairly dated. As such, I can mostly bring my experiences and observations to bear. I am a lower-T14 alum, currently a mid-level associate in NYC biglaw, but did a lot of secondary market interviewing. My dad was a biglaw hiring partner in a secondary market for the better part of a decade (including when I was in law school). My extended family is also full of lawyers, so I've known plenty of people who chose the local T2 over the T14 and vise versa.

From my experience:

There is a world of difference in level of regional preference between "national" cities like Chicago, LA, Houston, DC and truly regional markets like Montgomery Alabama, or even places like Denver. In the former market type, hiring partners know quite well what the top schools are and value them highly. My dad's firm used a chart with schools listed by U.S. News rank. The chart included grade cutoff by school. Generally, the local TTT was top 5 students, Local T2 was top 10%, Regional T20s were top 25%, T14 were top 40%, T6 were top 50%, and HYS had no real cutoff. He mentioned that there was actually more leeway in practice for the T14 than the chart suggested because T14 have non pre-select OCI, so even the last person in the class at the T14 at least has a chance to impress. Additionally, T14 schools don't give exact ranks, so it's hard to tell if someone is slightly below the median.

I interviewed in the secondary market before deciding on NYC. I had plenty of callbacks with grades just inside the top 1/3 and never ran into a single person who wasn't familiar with my school. I also had access the career services office GPA data on firms. It wasn't unusual at all for a sub-median person to get a biglaw offer in a secondary market, and a few people with very low grades got offers in very regional markets (places like Arizona). By contrast, an extended family member of mine went to the local T2, ended up in the top 20%, but couldn't even get a screener interview at any of the biglaw firms. The family member is employed, but not where they had hoped to be when they went to law school.

None of the above is to suggest that people should blithely go into a quarter-million dollars in debt to go the to T14. Rather, it requires a careful evaluation of what you want and what your level of risk tolerance is. Are you OK with working NYC for a few years, or are you dead-set on remaining in your desired secondary market? Is it biglaw or bust, or do you really just want to be a public defender? How will big debt affect your intended lifestyle?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fatduck
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:38 pm

who is your dad on tls? you know, since "T6" doesn't exist outside of tls.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:52 pm

I think the moral of this thread is that law school is a gamble even at top schools, and the odds of success become even more unpredictable if someone at a top school is targeting a secondary market or a particular program (like federal government honors attorney programs, prestigious PI groups, federal clerkships, and high profile boutique firms).

McQueen
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby McQueen » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Wanted to bring an informed counter. . . .


+1. Thank you for accurately defining the real world and the difference between “secondary markets” and "national markets." My guess is that in the past many T14ers have strayed into national markets, but today they are forced to concentrate on these markets. Because of the volatile job market, T14ers may now have to rely on real secondary markets like Savannah, Montgomery, Orlando, Biloxi, etc.

rad lulz
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby rad lulz » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:31 pm

McQueen wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wanted to bring an informed counter. . . .


+1. Thank you for accurately defining the real world and the difference between “secondary markets” and "national markets." My guess is that in the past many T14ers have strayed into national markets, but today they are forced to concentrate on these markets. Because of the volatile job market, T14ers may now have to rely on real secondary markets like Savannah, Montgomery, Orlando, Biloxi, etc.

It's pretty hard to get jobs in those markets if you're not from there, thankfully for non T14 people.

Anonymous User
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:36 pm

fatduck wrote:who is your dad on tls? you know, since "T6" doesn't exist outside of tls.


I'm pretty sure he has never heard of the phrase "T6" and has no idea what TLS is. It's just that the schools in the T6 had a lower cutoff than the other T14.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:41 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Texas big law firms are extremely forgiving of below-median Penn students with strong Texas ties. I also doubt Penn is the only non-T6 T14 to which this applies.


That's what I was saying earlier based off of the data. For some reason Texas seems like the only secondary market that is really forgiving of median and below at a top 14--although I think it only applies to people from Texas. They're not like the Midwest or the South.


I only have one data point to go on, but a friend at CCN ended up solidly below median and struck out in a major market but crushed it with firms in Minneapolis.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Texas big law firms are extremely forgiving of below-median Penn students with strong Texas ties. I also doubt Penn is the only non-T6 T14 to which this applies.


That's what I was saying earlier based off of the data. For some reason Texas seems like the only secondary market that is really forgiving of median and below at a top 14--although I think it only applies to people from Texas. They're not like the Midwest or the South.


I only have one data point to go on, but a friend at CCN ended up solidly below median and struck out in a major market but crushed it with firms in Minneapolis.

NYC?

HeavenWood
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby HeavenWood » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:39 pm

rad lulz wrote:
McQueen wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Wanted to bring an informed counter. . . .


+1. Thank you for accurately defining the real world and the difference between “secondary markets” and "national markets." My guess is that in the past many T14ers have strayed into national markets, but today they are forced to concentrate on these markets. Because of the volatile job market, T14ers may now have to rely on real secondary markets like Savannah, Montgomery, Orlando, Biloxi, etc.

It's pretty hard to get jobs in those markets if you're not from there, thankfully for non T14 people.

This. Even DC prefers when people have ties, although ties seem to stop mattering (or mattering a lot less) above the top 1/3 mark or so.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Texas big law firms are extremely forgiving of below-median Penn students with strong Texas ties. I also doubt Penn is the only non-T6 T14 to which this applies.


That's what I was saying earlier based off of the data. For some reason Texas seems like the only secondary market that is really forgiving of median and below at a top 14--although I think it only applies to people from Texas. They're not like the Midwest or the South.


I only have one data point to go on, but a friend at CCN ended up solidly below median and struck out in a major market but crushed it with firms in Minneapolis.

NYC?


probably chicago

Anonymous User
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:15 pm

In my hometown, if you're from a t14, GPA > 3.00, interview well, and genuinely want to come home, I think you'd do well at the big law firms.

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Perseus_I
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Perseus_I » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:55 pm

Thankfully, due to America's cultural, educational, regional, and socio-economic disparities, the majority of T14 students are from the coasts and, thus, pose little threat to native Alabamans (for example).

I remember seeing some data to this effect on a T14 ASW. The coastal skew was stunning. Even at UT, it seems that 80%+ of the class is either from Dallas/ Houston or the coasts. The idea that there is an invading army of Mississippi natives at NYU waiting to take Jackson Big Law by storm is probably a myth. To the extent that T14 grads from flyover country come home, it's probably always been like that and is probably less likely to happen now in some large secondary markets like Florida, Phoenix, and North Carolina with shit economies than it was pre 2007. One can even make the argument that hiring becomes much more parochial when things are tight. Even in NYC, I was repeatedly hammered in interviews for my lack of ties to NYC. Overall, I think kids at local schools are fine, and out-of-state students at non-T14 schools have the most to worry about.
Last edited by Perseus_I on Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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beachbum
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby beachbum » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:59 pm

Perseus_I wrote:Thankfully, due to America's cultural, educational, regional, and socio-economic disparities, the majority of T14 students are from the coasts and, thus, pose little threat to native Alabamans (for example).

I remember seeing some data to this effect on a T14 ASW. The coastal skew was stunning. Even at UT, it seems that 80%+ of the class is either from Dallas/ Houston or the coasts. The idea that there is an invading army of Mississippi natives at NYU waiting to take Jackson Big Law by storm is probably a myth. To the extent that T14 grads from flyover country come home, it's probably always been like that and is probably less likely to happen now in some large secondary markets like Florida, Phoenix, and North Carolina with shit economies than it was pre 2007.


On the other hand, these secondary markets aren't exactly brimming with SA slots. So it doesn't take an army of T14ers to affect the competitive balance.

Anonymous User
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:38 pm

I really don't get how people got this idea that Phoenix is a very regional market. Its probably easier to get without ties than most other markets assuming your grades are good.




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