T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:07 pm

homestyle28 wrote:Now that I think about you're right, nobody at median at NU gets a job anywhere but Chicago. my mistake.


You're not a careful reader are you?

BruceWayne wrote:LOL yeah sure, if by "across the country" you mean from Sugar Hill to the Financial District. I hate to break this to you, but unless you have really high grades (and now I am talking top 10 percent) at a top 14 (excluding HYS) you can't "apply to jobs all across the country" and expect to get a job offer. Outside of HYS the top 14 are regional for people at the median and below other than where they have ties and NYC. Someone from DC with a 3.3 at Penn is dreaming if they think they have a good shot at a firm job in Dallas, San Francisco, Atlanta, Boston, or Chicago.



One thing I will say about this whole subject that shows how much people have their blinders on. 90 percent of the people in this thread talking almost any rank at a top 14 and any rank at a "Top 6" is fine for secondary markets with ties needs to think about something. For one you're basing that essentially off of feeling and what TLS argues based off of US News rank. But what about your common sense? The economy is TERRIBLE. All of the law schools released employment stats show substantial amounts of students taking school funded "fellowships". There are article released every day about how there are FAR too many law schools, too many graduates every year to even fill A legal job, corporate work is down, clients are no longer willing to foot the bill for overpriced first year associates, AND firms are cutting back summer class sizes. But yet, even through all that, you think that kids at the median and below at top 14 schools are doing fine getting big firm jobs in markets where there are only about 15 big firms in them total? Really?
Last edited by BruceWayne on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fatduck
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:13 pm

students near median at T14 schools have a pretty good shot at NYC biglaw, correct?

isn't biglaw basically impossible outside the top 10% or so at your average regional T1?

i don't think the statement that "T1 top 10% is in a better spot than median non-HYS T14" is especially controversial, but that doesn't necessarily mean the T1 is a better choice, even with 0 debt (which is a lot more rare than you think).

but obviously most law students end up near median. if biglaw is what you want (and you can live with NYC), i think it's hard to say a regional T1 is better than a T14, even with a sizeable price difference.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:19 pm

fatduck wrote:students near median at T14 schools have a pretty good shot at NYC biglaw, correct?

isn't biglaw basically impossible outside the top 10% or so at your average regional T1?

i don't think the statement that "T1 top 10% is in a better spot than median non-HYS T14" is especially controversial, but that doesn't necessarily mean the T1 is a better choice, even with 0 debt (which is a lot more rare than you think).

but obviously most law students end up near median. if biglaw is what you want (and you can live with NYC), i think it's hard to say a regional T1 is better than a T14, even with a sizeable price difference.


You think it's better to pay $280K for a chance to work a job in a city where your salary comes out to about 60K in most places, for 4 years until you're forced out? As opposed to taking an almost free gamble that you will land a job where you can buy a Porsche Boxster on your first year salary and you have a legit chance at making partner ? I'll be real, neither option is ideal but one of them sure looks a lot better than people on here like to make it out to.

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fatduck
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby fatduck » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:21 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
fatduck wrote:students near median at T14 schools have a pretty good shot at NYC biglaw, correct?

isn't biglaw basically impossible outside the top 10% or so at your average regional T1?

i don't think the statement that "T1 top 10% is in a better spot than median non-HYS T14" is especially controversial, but that doesn't necessarily mean the T1 is a better choice, even with 0 debt (which is a lot more rare than you think).

but obviously most law students end up near median. if biglaw is what you want (and you can live with NYC), i think it's hard to say a regional T1 is better than a T14, even with a sizeable price difference.


You think it's better to pay $280K for a chance to work a job in a city where your salary comes out to about 60K in most places, for 4 years until you're forced out? As opposed to taking an almost free gamble that you will land a job where you can buy a Porsche Boxster on your first year salary and you have a legit chance at making partner ?

lol now i see why no one tries to engage you on this shit. i wrote a response but this comparison is just stupid.

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homestyle28
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:You're not a careful reader are you?


Christ, you expect me to wade back through the monstrous TL; DR horseshite you've been posting to see where you've said something reasonable, but that runs counter to everything else you've been saying?

BruceWayne wrote: For one you're basing that essentially off of feeling and what TLS argues based off of US News rank. But what about your common sense? The economy is TERRIBLE. All of the law schools released employment stats show substantial amounts of students taking school funded "fellowships". There are article released every day about how there are FAR too many law schools, too many graduates every year to even fill A legal job, corporate work is down, clients are no longer willing to foot the bill for overpriced first year associates, AND firms are cutting back summer class sizes. But yet, even through all that, you think that kids at the median and below at top 14 schools are doing fine getting big firm jobs in markets where there are only about 15 big firms in them total? Really?


Well, I'm basing my arguments based off of alums and folks I've actually, you know, talked to who either work in a 2ndary or know someone else who does. Not the TLS zeitgeist, which I'm pretty sure you just straw-manned the fuck out of here.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:06 am

homestyle28 wrote:Well, I'm basing my arguments based off of alums and folks I've actually, you know, talked to who either work in a 2ndary or know someone else who does. Not the TLS zeitgeist, which I'm pretty sure you just straw-manned the fuck out of here


You're basing your estimates off of hearsay. I'm basing mine off of face to face interviews, knowing the rank of summer associates, seeing profiles of associates on law firm websites, talking with other classmates who targeted secondary markets (including some at different schools than mine), and seeing GPA hiring charts collected by the law schools themselves. What year are you in law school? Are you a rising 2L or an 0L?

fatduck wrote:lol now i see why no one tries to engage you on this shit. i wrote a response but this comparison is just stupid.


Really? Explain what's so stupid about it. I mean honestly, why do you think it's stupid? Is my price number off for sticker at a top 14? Do most NYC big firm associates last longer than 4 years? Am I off on the COL of NYC vis a vis other markets? What am I missing? And if you're only talking about the Porsche Boxster part that was obviously made for dramatic effect.

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homestyle28
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby homestyle28 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:20 am

BruceWayne wrote:You're basing your estimates off of hearsay. I'm basing mine off of face to face interviews, knowing the rank of summer associates, seeing profiles of associates on law firm websites, talking with other classmates who targeted secondary markets (including some at different schools than mine), and seeing GPA hiring charts collected by the law schools themselves. What year are you in law school? Are you a rising 2L or an 0L?


So you're what a lawl school journalist now? a hiring partner? My face to face conversations with alums WORKING in secondary markets are hearsay but yours aren't? You're the worst kind of TLS troll, imo. If you've got some hard data, show it, otherwise STFU.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:24 am

homestyle28 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You're basing your estimates off of hearsay. I'm basing mine off of face to face interviews, knowing the rank of summer associates, seeing profiles of associates on law firm websites, talking with other classmates who targeted secondary markets (including some at different schools than mine), and seeing GPA hiring charts collected by the law schools themselves. What year are you in law school? Are you a rising 2L or an 0L?


So you're what a lawl school journalist now? a hiring partner? My face to face conversations with alums WORKING in secondary markets are hearsay but yours aren't? You're the worst kind of TLS troll, imo. If you've got some hard data, show it, otherwise STFU.


OK do you want me to PM you the NU and Michigan GPA hiring charts? Let me know. I almost posted them but I feel like that would be disrespectful to students at those schools. I know UVA data too if you want me to PM you the info (I don't feel comfortable sending out the charts).

You really need to grow up. Just because things aren't as great out here as you'd like them to be doesn't mean anyone telling you otherwise is a "troll"--that's some childish type shit. And I'm not trying to slam you but you're a rising 2L. You haven't even had a screening interview yet. Let alone done callbacks, worked a summer firm job, done multiple job fairs, talked to hiring partners, seen GPA charts at other schools, and talked to your fellow classmates who struck out in their own markets. You just haven't had enough personal experience yet to say that much about legal hiring.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby McQueen » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:52 am

I am agreeing with an earlier poster who essentially said that the landscape of ’12 hiring will be so dissimilar from previous years that you can trash the charts and data from past years.

T14ers are in competition with equals having high GPAs/LSATs. Non-T14ers are ranked against those with inferior GPAs/LSATs. Given the bell curve, firms will either say that a T14er scoring in the bottom 25% is better than a non-T14er scoring in the top 10% or else they will believe that they are equals and lean toward the regional applicant. Two things are certain (i) we’ll have the answer(s) inside of 45 days and (ii) until ITE gets better the T14ers will be arriving in droves to a secondary market near you.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby USAIRS » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:56 pm

I don't think there can be any real debate that top 10% tier two students in their local markets are in a great position. However, there are at least 20-40 of these guys in any school, and they don't exactly have the red carpet rolled out either - they have to struggle to find jobs, too. Its not that the median T10 students get beat by one local student, they are competing against 20-40 of them. So even if a firm sees a top 10% local student and a median Chicago student as comparable, they are interviewing ten top local students for every median from a T10 school. So odds are still ten-to-one in favor of a local student getting the job (and ten-to-one that any individual local student will get the job, but they'll interview at ten other places or intern at the local DA's office). Ultimately, Bruce Wayne is right that, for a T10 student to definitively outcompete the hoard of top local gunners, just going to a T10 is not enough.
There are two things I think Bruce Wayne's posts exaggerate on, though. First, it can't be any local school - the quality of the local school matters a lot. If the local school is T4 or a T3 (or even unaccredited) without a long standing reputation, then virtually anyone from a much better school with ties can come in to that market and compete well. Second, in my experience, Harvard students/grads encounter the same scrutiny as a student from Chicago would heading out to these secondary markets. Lawyers in secondary markets have enough experience with attorneys from Harvard (there are a ton of them) to know that a Harvard diploma, without anything more, is not a guarantee that the candidate is a better advocate or writer than someone top 10% and/or law review at the local school.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:09 pm

USAIRS wrote:I don't think there can be any real debate that top 10% tier two students in their local markets are in a great position. However, there are at least 20-40 of these guys in any school, and they don't exactly have the red carpet rolled out either - they have to struggle to find jobs, too. Its not that the median T10 students get beat by one local student, they are competing against 20-40 of them. So even if a firm sees a top 10% local student and a median Chicago student as comparable, they are interviewing ten top local students for every median from a T10 school. So odds are still ten-to-one in favor of a local student getting the job (and ten-to-one that any individual local student will get the job, but they'll interview at ten other places or intern at the local DA's office). Ultimately, Bruce Wayne is right that, for a T10 student to definitively outcompete the hoard of top local gunners, just going to a T10 is not enough.
There are two things I think Bruce Wayne's posts exaggerate on, though. First, it can't be any local school - the quality of the local school matters a lot. If the local school is T4 or a T3 (or even unaccredited) without a long standing reputation, then virtually anyone from a much better school with ties can come in to that market and compete well. Second, in my experience, Harvard students/grads encounter the same scrutiny as a student from Chicago would heading out to these secondary markets. Lawyers in secondary markets have enough experience with attorneys from Harvard (there are a ton of them) to know that a Harvard diploma, without anything more, is not a guarantee that the candidate is a better advocate or writer than someone top 10% and/or law review at the local school.


I cant speak for Chicago but the bolded is absolutely false with respect to H. Im a mediocre student at H with a little better than decent resume. I've had multiple interviews with major secondary market firms and its just a 5 minute walkthrough of my resume followed by questions concerning whether I would actually consider the firm/market if offered. There are zero questions about whether I can do the work, handle the lifestyle, etc. and very few, if any, behavioral questions. I have been given a callback as I was leaving the screening interview at multiple firms.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby sunynp » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
USAIRS wrote:I don't think there can be any real debate that top 10% tier two students in their local markets are in a great position. However, there are at least 20-40 of these guys in any school, and they don't exactly have the red carpet rolled out either - they have to struggle to find jobs, too. Its not that the median T10 students get beat by one local student, they are competing against 20-40 of them. So even if a firm sees a top 10% local student and a median Chicago student as comparable, they are interviewing ten top local students for every median from a T10 school. So odds are still ten-to-one in favor of a local student getting the job (and ten-to-one that any individual local student will get the job, but they'll interview at ten other places or intern at the local DA's office). Ultimately, Bruce Wayne is right that, for a T10 student to definitively outcompete the hoard of top local gunners, just going to a T10 is not enough.
There are two things I think Bruce Wayne's posts exaggerate on, though. First, it can't be any local school - the quality of the local school matters a lot. If the local school is T4 or a T3 (or even unaccredited) without a long standing reputation, then virtually anyone from a much better school with ties can come in to that market and compete well. Second, in my experience, Harvard students/grads encounter the same scrutiny as a student from Chicago would heading out to these secondary markets. Lawyers in secondary markets have enough experience with attorneys from Harvard (there are a ton of them) to know that a Harvard diploma, without anything more, is not a guarantee that the candidate is a better advocate or writer than someone top 10% and/or law review at the local school.


I cant speak for Chicago but the bolded is absolutely false with respect to H. Im a mediocre student at H with a little better than decent resume. I've had multiple interviews with major secondary market firms and its just a 5 minute walkthrough of my resume followed by questions concerning whether I would actually consider the firm/market if offered. There are zero questions about whether I can do the work, handle the lifestyle, etc. and very few, if any, behavioral questions. I have been given a callback as I was leaving the screening interview at multiple firms.

What is "little better than decent"? Can you be more specific as to your approximate rank? I believe you, it would just be helpful to have a closer idea of what you mean.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:36 pm

sunynp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
USAIRS wrote:I don't think there can be any real debate that top 10% tier two students in their local markets are in a great position. However, there are at least 20-40 of these guys in any school, and they don't exactly have the red carpet rolled out either - they have to struggle to find jobs, too. Its not that the median T10 students get beat by one local student, they are competing against 20-40 of them. So even if a firm sees a top 10% local student and a median Chicago student as comparable, they are interviewing ten top local students for every median from a T10 school. So odds are still ten-to-one in favor of a local student getting the job (and ten-to-one that any individual local student will get the job, but they'll interview at ten other places or intern at the local DA's office). Ultimately, Bruce Wayne is right that, for a T10 student to definitively outcompete the hoard of top local gunners, just going to a T10 is not enough.
There are two things I think Bruce Wayne's posts exaggerate on, though. First, it can't be any local school - the quality of the local school matters a lot. If the local school is T4 or a T3 (or even unaccredited) without a long standing reputation, then virtually anyone from a much better school with ties can come in to that market and compete well. Second, in my experience, Harvard students/grads encounter the same scrutiny as a student from Chicago would heading out to these secondary markets. Lawyers in secondary markets have enough experience with attorneys from Harvard (there are a ton of them) to know that a Harvard diploma, without anything more, is not a guarantee that the candidate is a better advocate or writer than someone top 10% and/or law review at the local school.


I cant speak for Chicago but the bolded is absolutely false with respect to H. Im a mediocre student at H with a little better than decent resume. I've had multiple interviews with major secondary market firms and its just a 5 minute walkthrough of my resume followed by questions concerning whether I would actually consider the firm/market if offered. There are zero questions about whether I can do the work, handle the lifestyle, etc. and very few, if any, behavioral questions. I have been given a callback as I was leaving the screening interview at multiple firms.

What is "little better than decent"? Can you be more specific as to your approximate rank? I believe you, it would just be helpful to have a closer idea of what you mean.


No problem. Im probably somewhere near the cusp of the bottom third and second third. I have a couple of internships at Fortune 500 companies (one in a high level group), an internship at a smaller, non-prestigious company and a summer internship at a BigLaw firm before law school in a legal internship type position. Almost certainly better than decent but nothing earth-shattering. In total, I worked for a little less than a year before law school (in internship title positions because they knew I was there temporarily but not doing intern type work).

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby USAIRS » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
USAIRS wrote: Second, in my experience, Harvard students/grads encounter the same scrutiny as a student from Chicago would heading out to these secondary markets. Lawyers in secondary markets have enough experience with attorneys from Harvard (there are a ton of them) to know that a Harvard diploma, without anything more, is not a guarantee that the candidate is a better advocate or writer than someone top 10% and/or law review at the local school.


I cant speak for Chicago but the bolded is absolutely false with respect to H. Im a mediocre student at H with a little better than decent resume. I've had multiple interviews with major secondary market firms and its just a 5 minute walkthrough of my resume followed by questions concerning whether I would actually consider the firm/market if offered. There are zero questions about whether I can do the work, handle the lifestyle, etc. and very few, if any, behavioral questions. I have been given a callback as I was leaving the screening interview at multiple firms.


Nothing you said conflicts with anything I said. Congratulations.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:39 pm

I suppose we could get an early read on how firms are reacting to the T14 blitz on secondary markets. Anyone here (either regional or T14) receive a callback from the Atlanta or Boston job fairs?

If there are any other secondary job fair callbacks, feel free to include them too.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:25 pm

homestyle28 wrote:To inject a few facts: from NU's 2011 OCI here's some GPA's that got callbacks in secondary markets (Median at NU is 3.3ish). The lesson (I think) is that it varies by firm, but it looks to me that a below median bottom t-14er can get CBs in secondary markets. They will, of course, not dominate the secondary market, nor will they displace all the top 10% are regional schools, but they also won't get owned either.

Ohio:
Dinsmore - 3.26 got a CB (GULC 3.18 - 6)

MN
Dorsey - 3.31 got a CB (GULC 3.53 - 6)

Boston
Edwards Wildman 3.2 got a CB (Insufficient data)

Indiana
Faegre - 3.26 got a CB (Insufficient data)

Wisconsin
Reinhart Boerner - 3.21 got a CB (Insufficient data)




These are the median GPAs for GULCers getting HIRED, not just call backs. Along with the number of individuals from 1998-2011.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:12 pm

Attend one of DNCG and have a callback style interview from mass mailing at a satellite office of a V50 in Boston with a practice group I'm very interested in. The particular office has historically had under 5 SA spots and there are no current attorneys from my law school.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Perseus_I » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
pjo wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
sunynp wrote:So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?


Yes. Except it should be modified to what I and several other students who have actually been through the hiring/interviewing process as opposed to 0L's who think US News also serves as a sort of hiring guideline.

Unless you go to HYS, or have high grades at a select group of schools (basically the top 14 and a few others like Vandy/Texas/UCLA) law schools are REGIONAL when it comes to hiring outside of NYC and DC. Period.


pjo wrote:Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.


Dude are you serious? Did you read my post? You fit EXACTLY into the category I said when it comes to a top 14 doing well in a secondary market and being = to top 10 percent etc. at the regional school. And didn't I say something about not needing law review if you were in that range at the top 14? Basically these firms want ties at a top 14 and above median grades. Frankly when that's what a firm is looking for, taking the gamble of sticker debt at top 14 just for that slight bit of flexibility on grades is a joke if you have the option to go to the regional for cheap (which you probably do if you got into the top 14). Not to mention the competition is going to be lower.


BruceWayne wrote:2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.


You said "high grades" and top "1/3", which I'm neither. Also, look at what I said about having offers for 1L before I even had grades. Furthermore, I already have interviews at some firms which I know my good friend, who goes to the local T2 and is on LR did not get interviews for last year. Lastly, I think it's more about being at least median at a T14 + ties to the area in order to get a secondary market job, not top 30% or so like you say. Everyone on TLS says you can't plan on how well you'll do at any given school, and anticipate median. If that's the case, then the T14 really makes sense. So yeah, I think the debt is worth it. But hey this is just my opinion. I know it has worked out for me so far, and I don't regret my decision at all. In fact, I would do it again 100 out of 100 times.


OP here. It's interesting how this thread has evolved (or devolved) into the classic question, "Should I go to a T14 for sticker price or a T1 with very low/reasonable debt?" If you are interested in a regional/secondary market that is going to pay 100-130K, aren't you better off coming out with low debt and having the hurdle of ranking in the top 15-20% as opposed to (this is debatable of course) the top 33%-50% at a T14.

I see lower debt at the T1 and more opportunities to build ties to the secondary market community (law firms like their employees to attract local clients I believe) and more opportunities to network with the attorneys at the secondary market. If you want to be in a big market and make biglaw 160K then that is another debate. But putting the prestige factor aside- which gets a certain type of man's balls tingling, isn't the strong regional school a better FINANCIAL decision than the strong national school if an individual doesn't have a strong desire to be in NYC, DC, Chicago, SF, LA?


I wish we could be more precise. Not all regional schools are created equal, and regional schools that coexist in the same market as T14's are at a significant disadvantage.

By "regional schools," are we talking about T1's that only place in one market that may have many other T1's or T14's (Illinois, Cardozo, or UC Davis), or are we talking about flagship state schools like Arkansas-Fayetville, UGA, IUB, Ole Miss, Alabama, or UT?

I think there's a huge difference. The ability of the latter to compete with T14 graduates is significantly better than the ability of the former to do so. In Texas, a UT grad at median will not have significantly worse chances than a non-HYSCCN T14 at median (both are pretty screwed). I talked to a Big Law partner in Dallas when I was looking at law schools who did not know that UofC was a top school. (HYS is a different story). In California, by contrast, no one is under any illusion that all the dozens of "Tier 1" UC's outrank Stanford or Berkeley.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:01 pm

Perseus_I wrote:
I wish we could be more precise. Not all regional schools are created equal, and regional schools that coexist in the same market as T14's are at a significant disadvantage.

By "regional schools," are we talking about T1's that only place in one market that may have many other T1's or T14's (Illinois, Cardozo, or UC Davis), or are we talking about flagship state schools like Arkansas-Fayetville, UGA, IUB, Ole Miss, Alabama, or UT?

I think there's a huge difference. The ability of the latter to compete with T14 graduates is significantly better than the ability of the former to do so. In Texas, a UT grad at median will not have significantly worse chances than a non-HYSCCN T14 at median (both are pretty screwed). I talked to a Big Law partner in Dallas when I was looking at law schools who did not know that UofC was a top school. (HYS is a different story). In California, by contrast, no one is under any illusion that all the dozens of "Tier 1" UC's outrank Stanford or Berkeley.

secon
In fairness, I will say that the one secondary market that seems to be friendly to median and below Top 14 students vs. the regionals (and I'm not talking UT) is Texas. From the GPA data I've seen the big Texas firms do seem willing to dip below median at a top 14. My guess is that you have to have some strong Texas tie, but from the data I've seen they seem to be MUCH more willing to dip than say Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Grand Rapids, Cincinatti etc (especially Houston). Texas seems to have this thing where they are really excited to get Texans who attend top 14s and will dip accordingly, but want sky high grades for people who don't have ties. Now that I think about it that seems like the logical approach. But for whatever reason other secondary markets seem to prefer top of the class at the regional ties be damned.

One thing I've always wanted to know is the kind of rank you need from UT to get Houston or Dallas biglaw. People always talk about how much Texas firms love UT, and I believe them, but they never reveal the GPA/rank needed to land Houston or Dallas biglaw. Considering how strong those markets are and the salary, the answer to that question could really catapult UT into top 14 range--at least as far as I'm concerned. Just like people always like to give schools a boost for placing a lot into a big market like NYC, a school that places a lot of people in a market that is healthy and still hiring a substantial number of people (not to mention the much much higher pay when factoring in COL compared to the other markets) should be given a substantial amount of consideration/respect.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:23 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:
I wish we could be more precise. Not all regional schools are created equal, and regional schools that coexist in the same market as T14's are at a significant disadvantage.

By "regional schools," are we talking about T1's that only place in one market that may have many other T1's or T14's (Illinois, Cardozo, or UC Davis), or are we talking about flagship state schools like Arkansas-Fayetville, UGA, IUB, Ole Miss, Alabama, or UT?

I think there's a huge difference. The ability of the latter to compete with T14 graduates is significantly better than the ability of the former to do so. In Texas, a UT grad at median will not have significantly worse chances than a non-HYSCCN T14 at median (both are pretty screwed). I talked to a Big Law partner in Dallas when I was looking at law schools who did not know that UofC was a top school. (HYS is a different story). In California, by contrast, no one is under any illusion that all the dozens of "Tier 1" UC's outrank Stanford or Berkeley.

secon
In fairness, I will say that the one secondary market that seems to be friendly to median and below Top 14 students vs. the regionals (and I'm not talking UT) is Texas. From the GPA data I've seen the big Texas firms do seem willing to dip below median at a top 14. My guess is that you have to have some strong Texas tie, but from the data I've seen they seem to be MUCH more willing to dip than say Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Grand Rapids, Cincinatti etc (especially Houston). Texas seems to have this thing where they are really excited to get Texans who attend top 14s and will dip accordingly, but want sky high grades for people who don't have ties. Now that I think about it that seems like the logical approach. But for whatever reason other secondary markets seem to prefer top of the class at the regional ties be damned.

One thing I've always wanted to know is the kind of rank you need from UT to get Houston or Dallas biglaw. People always talk about how much Texas firms love UT, and I believe them, but they never reveal the GPA/rank needed to land Houston or Dallas biglaw. Considering how strong those markets are and the salary, the answer to that question could really catapult UT into top 14 range--at least as far as I'm concerned. Just like people always like to give schools a boost for placing a lot into a big market like NYC, a school that places a lot of people in a market that is healthy and still hiring a substantial number of people (not to mention the much much higher pay when factoring in COL compared to the other markets) should be given a substantial amount of consideration/respect.


I bet if it's a native kid, they will at least inquire about the school and find out it's a good one if they don't know it. But if it's some fancy pants coastal kid with a 3.2 from NYU, forget it. The partner who did not know the University of Chicago was a top school is a prime example of this mentality.

I think UT is ranked pretty fairly -- just below T14 status. The CSO suggests that you need at least a 3.5 to have a good shot at Dallas/Houston Big Law as a native Texan (though it's not unheard of for 3.3's and 3.4's to get it). This corresponds to roughly top 40%. At a "real" T14, 3.3+ (or top 50%) has a decent shot at NYC Big Law.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:22 am

To be fair, if this so called partner, presumably in a Dallas firm, was not aware that the University of Chicago is a top school, the guy lived in a cave for the last 50 years. Its not like the school's rise is a recent development, and its not as if Chicago isn't a big name in politics, economics, business, medicine, physics, astronomy, and basically almost anything. I'm not saying he has to know its top 5 or whatever BS, but just from being alive and not being a moron, most educated people have some idea about the big schools in the US just from seeing the same names pop up over and over in certain contexts (other than sports).

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby uchi12 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:57 am

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Last edited by uchi12 on Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:05 am

This is a fucking retarded debate because no one is choosing between a T1 and a T14 and saying "Hey, what if I end up top 10% at my local T1 versus median at my T14?"

If they do compare that scenario they are fucking retarded. What they should be thinking is median @ t14 vs. median @ T1. And in that case, the T14 school trumps the T1 even if it's 200k vs. free, if what you want is a job.

Know many people who went to a T1, graduated median, and got a biglaw job?

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:This is a fucking retarded debate because no one is choosing between a T1 and a T14 and saying "Hey, what if I end up top 10% at my local T1 versus median at my T14?"

If they do compare that scenario they are fucking retarded. What they should be thinking is median @ t14 vs. median @ T1. And in that case, the T14 school trumps the T1 even if it's 200k vs. free, if what you want is a job.

Know many people who went to a T1, graduated median, and got a biglaw job?



This thinking is misguided, for one important reason: people who have this choice (t14 vs t1) have a much better than 1/10 chance of top 10% or a 1/5 chance of top 20% at the t1. If you are one or two standard deviations above the LSAT and gpa median for school that is a huge advantage, and having spoken to many people who have made this choice I've personally never met one who fell outside top 1/3 let alone median or below.

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Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Duke Silver » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:This is a fucking retarded debate because no one is choosing between a T1 and a T14 and saying "Hey, what if I end up top 10% at my local T1 versus median at my T14?"

If they do compare that scenario they are fucking retarded. What they should be thinking is median @ t14 vs. median @ T1. And in that case, the T14 school trumps the T1 even if it's 200k vs. free, if what you want is a job.

Know many people who went to a T1, graduated median, and got a biglaw job?



What are you talking about? This isn't about students picking law schools, for me anyway. I am a student at a T1 in a secondary market. It matters to me how screwed I am by T14 grads coming in to the secondary market, and how these firms view them. This thread has nothing to do with choosing a school. Obviously, pick a T14 if you get it, and obviously, median is better there. This thread is about how t14 students coming back are viewed by firms and how much they affect the T1 best-in-the-market students that used to own it, aimed at students currently applying to these firms. Yeah, I want to know how likely it is that I'll get a job at one of these and what I'm facing from students nationwide. Yeah, I'd rather be at a T14. But I'm not, and that's what this thread is addressing. It's in the "legal employment" forum, not "choosing a law school." This is useful information for law students who want a secondary market.




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