T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets Forum

[pjo]

Summered at a Cleveland firm. Out of the 8 2Ls, 5 were from T14s (Harvard, 2 Dukies, Cornell, G-town). And I don't think that they were below 50% at their respective schools because one is the Editor-in-Chief of a journal, and another has many A's and a CALI award in what I consider as substantial classes.

V100 firm?

I'm not this anaon, but there's like 2 firms in Cleveland with that big a summer class. Both are V100.

[Anonymous User]

Summered at a Cleveland firm. Out of the 8 2Ls, 5 were from T14s (Harvard, 2 Dukies, Cornell, G-town). And I don't think that they were below 50% at their respective schools because one is the Editor-in-Chief of a journal, and another has many A's and a CALI award in what I consider as substantial classes.

V100 firm?

Yes, barely.

[Anonymous User]

FYI, squire sanders has a 1L reception each winter and only invites students from the top 25 or so schools. What does that tell you about their hiring preferences?

[09042014]

+1, I really think it varies by firm.

If the Midwest firms are anything like Southern one's, then no, it doesn't. And to be honest, from what I've seen of NU's GPA charts they seem to operate quite similarly to Southern firms.

What GPA charts are you referencing?

NU GPA/OCI charts show that firms in Minn., Wisc., Ohio, Missouri, etc. are pretty selective. This is true.

But they are selective as shit at Illinois, Wisco, OSU, Minn, Iowa, and WUSTL too. During the crash many of these firms stopped recruiting at local schools period.

You are almost definitely better off being top 10% from the local t1 than median at T14, but I think once you get to top 15% you are getting to the end of the acceptable range at these firms.

[Anonymous User]

FYI, squire sanders has a 1L reception each winter and only invites students from the top 25 or so schools. What does that tell you about their hiring preferences?

So both OSU and Case are excluded?

[Anonymous User]

FYI, squire sanders has a 1L reception each winter and only invites students from the top 25 or so schools. What does that tell you about their hiring preferences?

So both OSU and Case are excluded?

No one from those schools was invited to the reception. My take on it was that they already know who they'll take from the local schools, based strictly on their GPA. From the top schools, they're willing to dip lower and they wanted to get a sense of who they like and "fits" within the firm. I may be wrong though. From what I saw, the lowest ranked school represented was Illinois. Most were from ND, Penn, UVA, Harvard.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't assume that a T14 student in a secondary market was below median. I was top 20% at T14 and looked almost exclusively in secondary markets. There were three T14ers in my summer class in a secondary market, and all three of us were top 1/3. Everyone else in the class was top 10% (or better) at a non-T14.

[Anonymous User]

FYI, squire sanders has a 1L reception each winter and only invites students from the top 25 or so schools. What does that tell you about their hiring preferences?

So both OSU and Case are excluded?

No one from those schools was invited to the reception. My take on it was that they already know who they'll take from the local schools, based strictly on their GPA. From the top schools, they're willing to dip lower and they wanted to get a sense of who they like and "fits" within the firm. I may be wrong though. From what I saw, the lowest ranked school represented was Illinois. Most were from ND, Penn, UVA, Harvard.

Snell & Wilmer in Phoenix does something very similar, and has a 1L reception each winter for Phoenix natives from Yale, Stanford, Penn, Michigan, UVA, GULC, Texas, GW, WUSTL, etc. who are home for winter break.

[Anonymous User]

FYI, squire sanders has a 1L reception each winter and only invites students from the top 25 or so schools. What does that tell you about their hiring preferences?

So both OSU and Case are excluded?

No one from those schools was invited to the reception. My take on it was that they already know who they'll take from the local schools, based strictly on their GPA. From the top schools, they're willing to dip lower and they wanted to get a sense of who they like and "fits" within the firm. I may be wrong though. From what I saw, the lowest ranked school represented was Illinois. Most were from ND, Penn, UVA, Harvard.

Snell & Wilmer in Phoenix does something very similar, and has a 1L reception each winter for Phoenix natives from Yale, Stanford, Penn, Michigan, UVA, GULC, Texas, GW, WUSTL, etc. who are home for winter break.

Do you know of similar receptions by Squire Sanders's Phoenix office?

[BruceWayne]

NU GPA/OCI charts show that firms in Minn., Wisc., Ohio, Missouri, etc. are pretty selective. This is true.

But they are selective as shit at Illinois, Wisco, OSU, Minn, Iowa, and WUSTL too. During the crash many of these firms stopped recruiting at local schools period.

You are almost definitely better off being top 10% from the local t1 than median at T14, but I think once you get to top 15% you are getting to the end of the acceptable range at these firms.

Damn I just went back and looked at those charts. Uh yeah the midwest is just like the South. I really wish people had shown this sort of data to me before I went to law school. It honestly would have changed what school I attended. I have to say this is something that I think this website is HORRIBLE for. So many people peddle SO MUCH bad information that isn't based on ANYTHING other than hearsay and US DAMN NEWS! It's annoying and it does people a disservice. When you actually sit down and look at real data, and once you start actually interviewing for jobs, you realize just how WRONG so much info on this site is. Let me highlight some of the biggest fallacies.

1. "Top 6" and to a lesser extent the top 14 dominate nationwide. WRONG. First no one in the damn real world knows what a "top 6" is. It's some bullshit that a few kids on here who attend those schools and wanted to circle jerk came up with. Firms outside of NYC DO NOT differentiate within the top 14 outside of having a preference for the top 14 in their respective region and HYS. Anyone telling you that "NYU will get you a job in Atlanta/Miami/Cleveland/Seattle/whatever secondary market with no problem with whatever grades" has NO DAMN IDEA what they are talking about! And quite frankly there are a few top 25 schools that are, for all intents and purposes = to the non HYS top 14 in their home markets. See: Vanderbilt and Texas. The GPA cutoffs for Southern firms at Vanderbilt vs. non HYS top 14 schools is honestly, negligible.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

DesertFox the bolded is true--which is sad. Because what it basically means is that, when it comes down to it, the top 14 boost is NEGLIGIBLE for these firms. Quite frankly from the looks of those charts these firms are looking at top 20-top 1/3 students at NU. I.e you need to beat out 70 PERCENT of the class at NU to have a good shot at those firms. Really when you think about it, what is so much better about having to beat out 70 percent of a class filled with high GPA high LSAT students for a job as opposed to having to beat out 90 or 85 percent at a school with students with substantially lower GPA LSAT? Honestly NEITHER odds are good.

But there's one thing that really makes you realize how much the top 14 thing is overblown on here. Many are JUMPING at the chance to spend 280K for a chance to BEAT out 70 percent of their classmates at the top 14 thinking that somehow firms are going DEEP into the class there. While, on the other hand they could have attended an OSU for FREE with only slightly worse odds and with less competition.

The anon poster below is just running his mouth and is DEAD WRONG.

I can think of a handful of firms in my target market that would almost definitely opt for the T14 student with decent grades over the local student with top grades. And I can think of a handful of firms that would almost definitely opt for the reverse. I know you love your blanket statements, but I'm not sure this one holds true in the Midwest, a region in which you don't seem to have much (any?) experience.

[Anonymous User]

Snell & Wilmer in Phoenix does something very similar, and has a 1L reception each winter for Phoenix natives from Yale, Stanford, Penn, Michigan, UVA, GULC, Texas, GW, WUSTL, etc. who are home for winter break.

Do you know of similar receptions by Squire Sanders's Phoenix office?

Idk, I just know their Ohio ones do this.

[HeavenWood]

Damn I just went back and looked at those charts. Uh yeah the midwest is just like the South. I really wish people had shown this sort of data to me before I went to law school. It honestly would have changed what school I attended.

Were/are you secondary market or bust?

[BruceWayne]

Damn I just went back and looked at those charts. Uh yeah the midwest is just like the South. I really wish people had shown this sort of data to me before I went to law school. It honestly would have changed what school I attended.

Were/are you secondary market or bust?

No. No one can afford to be ITE unless they have good grades. The big NYC firms will go substantially deeper (i.e median) but once you go below that you are in serious trouble. Those firms have VERY strict GPA cutoffs. The one thing I will say is that I DO think that this is different in NYC for CCN and Penn. And one other thing: Smaller firms in secondary markets will sometimes flex on grades for a candidate who is from the area and went to a top 14 in the region that they really like (i.e interviews well). But that's not the norm.

The reason I said that I would have gone to a different school if I had known this info is because I probably could have gone to the strong regional in the area where I want to practice for free or close to it. My odds of getting the type of grades I would have needed (probably top 20 percent or better) from there really weren't any worse than my odds of landing above median at a top 10 (what I would have likely needed). Plus if I had missed out on the ranking I could have just dropped out with no debt or kept the degree with no debt and hustled in the region. As opposed to having to hustle with 270K in debt.

[pjo]

NU GPA/OCI charts show that firms in Minn., Wisc., Ohio, Missouri, etc. are pretty selective. This is true.

But they are selective as shit at Illinois, Wisco, OSU, Minn, Iowa, and WUSTL too. During the crash many of these firms stopped recruiting at local schools period.

You are almost definitely better off being top 10% from the local t1 than median at T14, but I think once you get to top 15% you are getting to the end of the acceptable range at these firms.

Damn I just went back and looked at those charts. Uh yeah the midwest is just like the South. I really wish people had shown this sort of data to me before I went to law school. It honestly would have changed what school I attended. I have to say this is something that I think this website is HORRIBLE for. So many people peddle SO MUCH bad information that isn't based on ANYTHING other than hearsay and US DAMN NEWS! It's annoying and it does people a disservice. When you actually sit down and look at real data, and once you start actually interviewing for jobs, you realize just how WRONG so much info on this site is. Let me highlight some of the biggest fallacies.

1. "Top 6" and to a lesser extent the top 14 dominate nationwide. WRONG. First no one in the damn real world knows what a "top 6" is. It's some bullshit that a few kids on here who attend those schools and wanted to circle jerk came up with. Firms outside of NYC DO NOT differentiate within the top 14 outside of having a preference for the top 14 in their respective region and HYS. Anyone telling you that "NYU will get you a job in Atlanta/Miami/Cleveland/Seattle/whatever secondary market with no problem with whatever grades" has NO DAMN IDEA what they are talking about! And quite frankly there are a few top 25 schools that are, for all intents and purposes = to the non HYS top 14 in their home markets. See: Vanderbilt and Texas. The GPA cutoffs for Southern firms at Vanderbilt vs. non HYS top 14 schools is honestly, negligible.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

DesertFox the bolded is true--which is sad. Because what it basically means is that, when it comes down to it, the top 14 boost is NEGLIGIBLE for these firms. Quite frankly from the looks of those charts these firms are looking at top 20-top 1/3 students at NU. I.e you need to beat out 70 PERCENT of the class at NU to have a good shot at those firms. Really when you think about it, what is so much better about having to beat out 70 percent of a class filled with high GPA high LSAT students for a job as opposed to having to beat out 90 or 85 percent at a school with students with substantially lower GPA LSAT? Honestly NEITHER odds are good.

But there's one thing that really makes you realize how much the top 14 thing is overblown on here. Many are JUMPING at the chance to spend 280K for a chance to BEAT out 70 percent of their classmates at the top 14 thinking that somehow firms are going DEEP into the class there. While, on the other hand they could have attended an OSU for FREE with only slightly worse odds and with less competition.

The anon poster below is just running his mouth and is DEAD WRONG.

I can think of a handful of firms in my target market that would almost definitely opt for the T14 student with decent grades over the local student with top grades. And I can think of a handful of firms that would almost definitely opt for the reverse. I know you love your blanket statements, but I'm not sure this one holds true in the Midwest, a region in which you don't seem to have much (any?) experience.

I have to disagree with you. You're looking at charts, but I know from experience that going to a T14 has helped my chances immensely at landing a top firm job in my home, secondary market. True, I have no idea what my GPA would be if I would ahev taken the full ride to my local T2, but I'm telling you, I'm getting interviews at many, many secondary market firms for 2 reasons 1) I have significant ties to the area and 2) I go to a T10. I know this becuase attorneys at the firm have more or less told me so. Plus, you have to remember that at most of these firms, ppl fromt he T10 are scarce, and the ones that are there pull very hard for ppl from their alma mater. This just isn't true for the local schools because basically all the attorneys are from there. They have no reason to try and help out one candidate over another even if they are from their local alma mater.

[BruceWayne]

I have to disagree with you. You're looking at charts, but I know from experience that going to a T14 has helped my chances immensely at landing a top firm job in my home, secondary market. True, I have no idea what my GPA would be if I would ahev taken the full ride to my local T2, but I'm telling you, I'm getting interviews at many, many secondary market firms for 2 reasons 1) I have significant ties to the area and 2) I go to a T10. I know this becuase attorneys at the firm have more or less told me so. Plus, you have to remember that at most of these firms, ppl fromt he T10 are scarce, and the ones that are there pull very hard for ppl from their alma mater. This just isn't true for the local schools because basically all the attorneys are from there. They have no reason to try and help out one candidate over another even if they are from their local alma mater.

Dude what are your grades?

[pjo]

I have to disagree with you. You're looking at charts, but I know from experience that going to a T14 has helped my chances immensely at landing a top firm job in my home, secondary market. True, I have no idea what my GPA would be if I would ahev taken the full ride to my local T2, but I'm telling you, I'm getting interviews at many, many secondary market firms for 2 reasons 1) I have significant ties to the area and 2) I go to a T10. I know this becuase attorneys at the firm have more or less told me so. Plus, you have to remember that at most of these firms, ppl fromt he T10 are scarce, and the ones that are there pull very hard for ppl from their alma mater. This just isn't true for the local schools because basically all the attorneys are from there. They have no reason to try and help out one candidate over another even if they are from their local alma mater.

Dude what are your grades?

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

[Anonymous User]

NU GPA/OCI charts show that firms in Minn., Wisc., Ohio, Missouri, etc. are pretty selective. This is true.

But they are selective as shit at Illinois, Wisco, OSU, Minn, Iowa, and WUSTL too. During the crash many of these firms stopped recruiting at local schools period.

You are almost definitely better off being top 10% from the local t1 than median at T14, but I think once you get to top 15% you are getting to the end of the acceptable range at these firms.

Damn I just went back and looked at those charts. Uh yeah the midwest is just like the South. I really wish people had shown this sort of data to me before I went to law school. It honestly would have changed what school I attended. I have to say this is something that I think this website is HORRIBLE for. So many people peddle SO MUCH bad information that isn't based on ANYTHING other than hearsay and US DAMN NEWS! It's annoying and it does people a disservice. When you actually sit down and look at real data, and once you start actually interviewing for jobs, you realize just how WRONG so much info on this site is. Let me highlight some of the biggest fallacies.

1. "Top 6" and to a lesser extent the top 14 dominate nationwide. WRONG. First no one in the damn real world knows what a "top 6" is. It's some bullshit that a few kids on here who attend those schools and wanted to circle jerk came up with. Firms outside of NYC DO NOT differentiate within the top 14 outside of having a preference for the top 14 in their respective region and HYS. Anyone telling you that "NYU will get you a job in Atlanta/Miami/Cleveland/Seattle/whatever secondary market with no problem with whatever grades" has NO DAMN IDEA what they are talking about! And quite frankly there are a few top 25 schools that are, for all intents and purposes = to the non HYS top 14 in their home markets. See: Vanderbilt and Texas. The GPA cutoffs for Southern firms at Vanderbilt vs. non HYS top 14 schools is honestly, negligible.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

DesertFox the bolded is true--which is sad. Because what it basically means is that, when it comes down to it, the top 14 boost is NEGLIGIBLE for these firms. Quite frankly from the looks of those charts these firms are looking at top 20-top 1/3 students at NU. I.e you need to beat out 70 PERCENT of the class at NU to have a good shot at those firms. Really when you think about it, what is so much better about having to beat out 70 percent of a class filled with high GPA high LSAT students for a job as opposed to having to beat out 90 or 85 percent at a school with students with substantially lower GPA LSAT? Honestly NEITHER odds are good.

But there's one thing that really makes you realize how much the top 14 thing is overblown on here. Many are JUMPING at the chance to spend 280K for a chance to BEAT out 70 percent of their classmates at the top 14 thinking that somehow firms are going DEEP into the class there. While, on the other hand they could have attended an OSU for FREE with only slightly worse odds and with less competition.

The anon poster below is just running his mouth and is DEAD WRONG.

I can think of a handful of firms in my target market that would almost definitely opt for the T14 student with decent grades over the local student with top grades. And I can think of a handful of firms that would almost definitely opt for the reverse. I know you love your blanket statements, but I'm not sure this one holds true in the Midwest, a region in which you don't seem to have much (any?) experience.

I hope this is true, and I kind of made my law school choice based on it: full ride (no stips) at a T40 in home market over several T14 offers. Various people told me that top 10-15%, especially with law review, is better than median at a T14, and that's what I'm going to try and achieve (starting in two weeks).

[mr_toad]

Tag for interesting discussion relevant to my interests. Basic takeaway: nothing is safe (but you should have known that coming in...).

[JollyGreenGiant]

I have no proof of this, but I would guess that national firms with headquarters in a secondary market would be much tougher to get a job as an associate rather than a satellite office in a secondary market. For example, Ropes & Gray (Boston), Baker Botts (Houston), Foley & Lardner (Milwaukee), Reed Smith (Pittsburgh), and Baker Hostetler (Cleveland) are some of the firms that may be tougher to crack in their home markets.

[HeavenWood]

I have to disagree with you. You're looking at charts, but I know from experience that going to a T14 has helped my chances immensely at landing a top firm job in my home, secondary market. True, I have no idea what my GPA would be if I would ahev taken the full ride to my local T2, but I'm telling you, I'm getting interviews at many, many secondary market firms for 2 reasons 1) I have significant ties to the area and 2) I go to a T10. I know this becuase attorneys at the firm have more or less told me so. Plus, you have to remember that at most of these firms, ppl fromt he T10 are scarce, and the ones that are there pull very hard for ppl from their alma mater. This just isn't true for the local schools because basically all the attorneys are from there. They have no reason to try and help out one candidate over another even if they are from their local alma mater.

Dude what are your grades?

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

I would imagine the significant ties are what make the difference, as opposed to moderate ties, or no ties at all. I'll be trying for some firms in a smaller Northeastern/Midwestern secondary market to which I have moderate ties, so we'll see how that goes.

[Anonymous User]

Top 15% + LR at T10, and my first choice is a secondary market in the Midwest.

[Hodgy]

I think Southern and Midwestern firms know that T14 kids are looking their way ITE. Some of those firms will really want T14 kids, others will be skeptical and try to protect their yield knowing they are likely backup options.

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer here. From personal experience, I know I went up against T14 kids in one secondary market where it likely had an effect at Firm A in that market, but no effect at Firm B in that market.

[swampthang]

I think Southern and Midwestern firms know that T14 kids are looking their way ITE. Some of those firms will really want T14 kids, others will be skeptical and try to protect their yield knowing they are likely backup options.

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer here. From personal experience, I know I went up against T14 kids in one secondary market where it likely had an effect at Firm A in that market, but no effect at Firm B in that market.

I agree with this, and has been said previously, it really depends on the firm. Some will lean local, some will lean T14, some will be in between. This will vary by city, and I imagine, by whether the firm is locally/regionally-based or a satellite of a national firm.

Best course of action would be to contact firms or browse junior associate profiles, then report your findings back here.

[sunynp]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

[swampthang]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

No. Cet. par., a top 15% Yale student is far more likely to get a job with a firm in St. Louis than a top 15% Mizzou student.

The question is whether as the student at the top school's ranking drops, where the secondary market firm prefers the student from the regional school. Hiring committees should have a good idea of where they start to draw this line, and if unwilling to divulge, our best bet is their revelaed preferences as indicated by associate hiring (bearing in mind self-selection, or course).