T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am top 15% at a BigT1en law school looking to be in a mid-sized midwest city (Ohio Cle Col Cin, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Louisville). How much encroachment will there be for the limited SA slots in these smaller markets from T14 students? Am I going to be competing with the lowly 50% at these prestigious legal institutions?

I (1L) summered at a very large secondary market law firm. Out of my office's class of 11 I was the only T14er (there was also one texas, though) but I was top 25%. My firm at least definitely preferreed the top of local schools to T14 dregs.

probably because they think you will actually want to work there long term.

[BruceWayne]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

Yes. Except it should be modified to what I and several other students who have actually been through the hiring/interviewing process as opposed to 0L's who think US News also serves as a sort of hiring guideline.

Unless you go to HYS, or have high grades at a select group of schools (basically the top 14 and a few others like Vandy/Texas/UCLA) law schools are REGIONAL when it comes to hiring outside of NYC and DC. Period.

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

Dude are you serious? Did you read my post? You fit EXACTLY into the category I said when it comes to a top 14 doing well in a secondary market and being = to top 10 percent etc. at the regional school. And didn't I say something about not needing law review if you were in that range at the top 14? Basically these firms want ties at a top 14 and above median grades. Frankly when that's what a firm is looking for, taking the gamble of sticker debt at top 14 just for that slight bit of flexibility on grades is a joke if you have the option to go to the regional for cheap (which you probably do if you got into the top 14). Not to mention the competition is going to be lower.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

[daydreamer]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

Yes. Except it should be modified to what I and several other students who have actually been through the hiring/interviewing process as opposed to 0L's who think US News also serves as a sort of hiring guideline.

Unless you go to HYS, or have high grades at a select group of schools (basically the top 14 and a few others like Vandy/Texas/UCLA) law schools are REGIONAL when it comes to hiring outside of NYC and DC. Period.

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

Dude are you serious? Did you read my post? You fit EXACTLY into the category I said when it comes to a top 14 doing well in a secondary market and being = to top 10 percent etc. at the regional school. And didn't I say something about not needing law review if you were in that range at the top 14? Basically these firms want ties at a top 14 and above median grades. Frankly when that's what a firm is looking for, taking the gamble of sticker debt at top 14 just for that slight bit of flexibility on grades is a joke if you have the option to go to the regional for cheap (which you probably do if you got into the top 14). Not to mention the competition is going to be lower.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

Well, he did say he had 3 offers before he got his grades...

[pjo]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

Yes. Except it should be modified to what I and several other students who have actually been through the hiring/interviewing process as opposed to 0L's who think US News also serves as a sort of hiring guideline.

Unless you go to HYS, or have high grades at a select group of schools (basically the top 14 and a few others like Vandy/Texas/UCLA) law schools are REGIONAL when it comes to hiring outside of NYC and DC. Period.

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

Dude are you serious? Did you read my post? You fit EXACTLY into the category I said when it comes to a top 14 doing well in a secondary market and being = to top 10 percent etc. at the regional school. And didn't I say something about not needing law review if you were in that range at the top 14? Basically these firms want ties at a top 14 and above median grades. Frankly when that's what a firm is looking for, taking the gamble of sticker debt at top 14 just for that slight bit of flexibility on grades is a joke if you have the option to go to the regional for cheap (which you probably do if you got into the top 14). Not to mention the competition is going to be lower.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

You said "high grades" and top "1/3", which I'm neither. Also, look at what I said about having offers for 1L before I even had grades. Furthermore, I already have interviews at some firms which I know my good friend, who goes to the local T2 and is on LR did not get interviews for last year. Lastly, I think it's more about being at least median at a T14 + ties to the area in order to get a secondary market job, not top 30% or so like you say. Everyone on TLS says you can't plan on how well you'll do at any given school, and anticipate median. If that's the case, then the T14 really makes sense. So yeah, I think the debt is worth it. But hey this is just my opinion. I know it has worked out for me so far, and I don't regret my decision at all. In fact, I would do it again 100 out of 100 times.

[Anonymous User]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

Yes. Except it should be modified to what I and several other students who have actually been through the hiring/interviewing process as opposed to 0L's who think US News also serves as a sort of hiring guideline.

Unless you go to HYS, or have high grades at a select group of schools (basically the top 14 and a few others like Vandy/Texas/UCLA) law schools are REGIONAL when it comes to hiring outside of NYC and DC. Period.

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

Dude are you serious? Did you read my post? You fit EXACTLY into the category I said when it comes to a top 14 doing well in a secondary market and being = to top 10 percent etc. at the regional school. And didn't I say something about not needing law review if you were in that range at the top 14? Basically these firms want ties at a top 14 and above median grades. Frankly when that's what a firm is looking for, taking the gamble of sticker debt at top 14 just for that slight bit of flexibility on grades is a joke if you have the option to go to the regional for cheap (which you probably do if you got into the top 14). Not to mention the competition is going to be lower.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

You said "high grades" and top "1/3", which I'm neither. Also, look at what I said about having offers for 1L before I even had grades. Furthermore, I already have interviews at some firms which I know my good friend, who goes to the local T2 and is on LR did not get interviews for last year. Lastly, I think it's more about being at least median at a T14 + ties to the area in order to get a secondary market job, not top 30% or so like you say. Everyone on TLS says you can't plan on how well you'll do at any given school, and anticipate median. If that's the case, then the T14 really makes sense. So yeah, I think the debt is worth it. But hey this is just my opinion. I know it has worked out for me so far, and I don't regret my decision at all. In fact, I would do it again 100 out of 100 times.

OP here. It's interesting how this thread has evolved (or devolved) into the classic question, "Should I go to a T14 for sticker price or a T1 with very low/reasonable debt?" If you are interested in a regional/secondary market that is going to pay 100-130K, aren't you better off coming out with low debt and having the hurdle of ranking in the top 15-20% as opposed to (this is debatable of course) the top 33%-50% at a T14.

I see lower debt at the T1 and more opportunities to build ties to the secondary market community (law firms like their employees to attract local clients I believe) and more opportunities to network with the attorneys at the secondary market. If you want to be in a big market and make biglaw 160K then that is another debate. But putting the prestige factor aside- which gets a certain type of man's balls tingling, isn't the strong regional school a better FINANCIAL decision than the strong national school if an individual doesn't have a strong desire to be in NYC, DC, Chicago, SF, LA?

[Anonymous User]

BruceWayne's distinction between CCN and HYS in secondary markets has absolutely not been true in my experience. I got offers from several firms in a Southern Market without ever being asked for my grades from CLS. This was the same experience when I compared notes with people in my SA class from HLS. People were just as impressed with the CLS name as the HLS name in my experience with people at the firms I visited. On the other hand, people from UVA and Duke that are in my SA class were asked for grades.

[buckilaw]

BruceWayne's distinction between CCN and HYS in secondary markets has absolutely not been true in my experience. I got offers from several firms in a Southern Market without ever being asked for my grades from CLS. This was the same experience when I compared notes with people in my SA class from HLS. People were just as impressed with the CLS name as the HLS name in my experience with people at the firms I visited. On the other hand, people from UVA and Duke that are in my SA class were asked for grades.

Lol, Duke.

[HeavenWood]

So this goes back to all schools are regional when it comes to hiring outside of NYC?

Yes. Except it should be modified to what I and several other students who have actually been through the hiring/interviewing process as opposed to 0L's who think US News also serves as a sort of hiring guideline.

Unless you go to HYS, or have high grades at a select group of schools (basically the top 14 and a few others like Vandy/Texas/UCLA) law schools are REGIONAL when it comes to hiring outside of NYC and DC. Period.

Above median, but not LR. Rather not go into detail considering some ppl know who I am. Also, just proving my point, I was offered 3 SA positions as a 1L before I even had grades.

Dude are you serious? Did you read my post? You fit EXACTLY into the category I said when it comes to a top 14 doing well in a secondary market and being = to top 10 percent etc. at the regional school. And didn't I say something about not needing law review if you were in that range at the top 14? Basically these firms want ties at a top 14 and above median grades. Frankly when that's what a firm is looking for, taking the gamble of sticker debt at top 14 just for that slight bit of flexibility on grades is a joke if you have the option to go to the regional for cheap (which you probably do if you got into the top 14). Not to mention the competition is going to be lower.

2. In general these firms DO prefer top of the class at the local school (i.e top 10 percent or better) HEAVILY over top 14 (including the "CCN) over median or below Top 14 students. Frankly, top 14 starts to come into play in this sense: the firms won't require law review and they will often dig "down" to top 1/3. LMAO as if that's really digging all that deep.

You said "high grades" and top "1/3", which I'm neither. Also, look at what I said about having offers for 1L before I even had grades. Furthermore, I already have interviews at some firms which I know my good friend, who goes to the local T2 and is on LR did not get interviews for last year. Lastly, I think it's more about being at least median at a T14 + ties to the area in order to get a secondary market job, not top 30% or so like you say. Everyone on TLS says you can't plan on how well you'll do at any given school, and anticipate median. If that's the case, then the T14 really makes sense. So yeah, I think the debt is worth it. But hey this is just my opinion. I know it has worked out for me so far, and I don't regret my decision at all. In fact, I would do it again 100 out of 100 times.

OP here. It's interesting how this thread has evolved (or devolved) into the classic question, "Should I go to a T14 for sticker price or a T1 with very low/reasonable debt?" If you are interested in a regional/secondary market that is going to pay 100-130K, aren't you better off coming out with low debt and having the hurdle of ranking in the top 15-20% as opposed to (this is debatable of course) the top 33%-50% at a T14.

I see lower debt at the T1 and more opportunities to build ties to the secondary market community (law firms like their employees to attract local clients I believe) and more opportunities to network with the attorneys at the secondary market. If you want to be in a big market and make biglaw 160K then that is another debate. But putting the prestige factor aside- which gets a certain type of man's balls tingling, isn't the strong regional school a better FINANCIAL decision than the strong national school if an individual doesn't have a strong desire to be in NYC, DC, Chicago, SF, LA?

I would not count on top 15-20% at a T1 being just as easy to obtain as top 33-50% at a T14.

[Pokemon]

+1. If for no other reason, just the fact that one class can really considerably affect your GPA. Additionally, are local firms well aware that T-14 is running on 3.33, especially considering local school go on lower medians.

[Renne Walker]

I have no dog in this fight but there is one factor no one has touched on. Up until now the local mid-sized market hiring pool has been limited to neighboring law student applicants. Law firms that have rarely been approached by the likes of CCNP will finally have the chance to hire from these schools (and the T14 in general). IMO, many of these firms will jump on the opportunity. Due to ITE, the rulebook is changing dramatically.

[bigstin]

Another issue is regional schools have no NYC "safety net". Ohio State students basically have to go regional market or bust. NU who want to be in Ohio really bad may still have a great chance of getting it, but they also have NYC to fall back on. So if you're regional market or bust, which is just stupid ITE, then yeah, minimizing debt may make sense. But if you just want to make sure you get a job, then it's hard to argue with the employment stats out there right now.

[Anonymous User]

Why is it sad that TOP 14 are looking in other markets? Top 14 here. NO DEBT!! Always wanted to return to my home market (or close by). Chose top school with most $$$. Enjoyed 1L. Solid median. Looks like my plan worked.

[swampthang]

Why is it sad that TOP 14 are looking in other markets? Top 14 here. NO DEBT!! Always wanted to return to my home market (or close by). Chose top school with most $$$. Enjoyed 1L. Solid median. Looks like my plan worked.

Gotta get that jerb first. Pride goeth...

[Renne Walker]

+1. Yeah, it kind of works that way, doesn't it.

[Anonymous User]

Oh you are right. That's not what I meant. I meant I wasn't looking at this market because I had no choice. This was always my plan. Actually I was worried that the "local" school might have the edge. Well they may, but it seems like they are also open to us too. (That's what I meant about plan working). Sorry if it came across douchey. No chickens being counted here.

[swampthang]

Oh you are right. That's not what I meant. I meant I wasn't looking at this market because I had no choice. This was always my plan. Actually I was worried that the "local" school might have the edge. Well they may, but it seems like they are also open to us too. (That's what I meant about plan working). Sorry if it came across douchey. No chickens being counted here.

Clarification accepted. And I totally understand the concern. Being from a (generously) secondary market, I can easily see folks back home going either way about my decision to leave the region.

[BruceWayne]

BruceWayne's distinction between CCN and HYS in secondary markets has absolutely not been true in my experience. I got offers from several firms in a Southern Market without ever being asked for my grades from CLS. This was the same experience when I compared notes with people in my SA class from HLS. People were just as impressed with the CLS name as the HLS name in my experience with people at the firms I visited. On the other hand, people from UVA and Duke that are in my SA class were asked for grades.

LOL there's bullshit and then there's this. There aren't even NYC firms that don't ask for grades at Columbia but then do for UVA and Duke--a Southern firm doing that is absolutely absurd. People really don't understand the way hiring works in non NYC markets. Firms just don't take the time to distinguish within the top 14 outside of HYS. And frankly, it's not even just secondary market firms. DC is really serious about that too. Many of the big time DC firms basically require the same grades of students from any non HYS school. I.e Willliams and Connolly wants the very top of the class at Columbia and UVA. Covington isn't going below median at Columbia but only taking top 10 percent at UVA. The other thing about this post that really makes it look like a flame is that saying that your firms is Southern and has people in the summer class from Harvard, Columbia, UVA, and Duke heavily narrows down the firms that you could even be talking about--and that's not how any of those firms work.

Edit- This is actually a good opportunity to show a useful trick for trying to figure out what sort of grades you need from a school to get a firm job. It's also one of the first ways I found out that a lot of info on TLS is garbage when it comes to legal hiring. Search for associates at the firms you're interested in and then look for the one's that go to the school you're curious about. It doesn't work so well for schools like UVA that don't have many identifiers for high grades. But ironically enough it actually works great for CCN because all 3 of those schools differentiate between class ranks via more than just order of the coif (i.e they have cum laude, magna, summa, honors, high honors etc.) . But even with a school like UVA you can often tell based off of clerkships. If you see appellate clerkship--that means that they had freaking high grades. The following is just one example of how things really are in many secondary markets when it comes to grades at the top 14.

http://www.kslaw.com/people/James-Pratt
http://www.kslaw.com/people/Jeffrey-Dutson

[de5igual]

BruceWayne's distinction between CCN and HYS in secondary markets has absolutely not been true in my experience. I got offers from several firms in a Southern Market without ever being asked for my grades from CLS. This was the same experience when I compared notes with people in my SA class from HLS. People were just as impressed with the CLS name as the HLS name in my experience with people at the firms I visited. On the other hand, people from UVA and Duke that are in my SA class were asked for grades.

Are you a 1L and are the UVA/Duke people 2Ls? In Texas, at least, some 1L SAs are handed out to T10 students (Duke and UVA included) before first semester grades come out. However, come 2L OCI, they'll ask for EVERYONE's grades. Even then, though, (at least based on one major BigTex firm's hiring grid), some leeway is given to CC/HYS over other schools.

[Anonymous User]

I think Southern and Midwestern firms know that T14 kids are looking their way ITE. Some of those firms will really want T14 kids, others will be skeptical and try to protect their yield knowing they are likely backup options.

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer here. From personal experience, I know I went up against T14 kids in one secondary market where it likely had an effect at Firm A in that market, but no effect at Firm B in that market.

Atlanta certainly knows that T14 kids are ripe for the picking. There are 5 HYS kids at Alston this summer. Makes it a bit trickier for the rest of us plebian masses.

[bceagles182]

I don't know about the midwest, but I work at a large firm in Boston and the vast majority of our summer class (>50%) is from in-market T1s (BU/BC) as opposed to other T14s (2 people). I don't know others' class ranks but I would imagine that they are similar to yours. I believe that this is the case at most firms in Boston outside of Ropes, WH, and possibly Goodwin. Of course Boston is known to be an insular market, but I would guess that most secondary markets are as well.

[Anonymous User]

BruceWayne's distinction between CCN and HYS in secondary markets has absolutely not been true in my experience. I got offers from several firms in a Southern Market without ever being asked for my grades from CLS. This was the same experience when I compared notes with people in my SA class from HLS. People were just as impressed with the CLS name as the HLS name in my experience with people at the firms I visited. On the other hand, people from UVA and Duke that are in my SA class were asked for grades.

LOL there's bullshit and then there's this. There aren't even NYC firms that don't ask for grades at Columbia but then do for UVA and Duke--a Southern firm doing that is absolutely absurd. People really don't understand the way hiring works in non NYC markets. Firms just don't take the time to distinguish within the top 14 outside of HYS. And frankly, it's not even just secondary market firms. DC is really serious about that too. Many of the big time DC firms basically require the same grades of students from any non HYS school. I.e Willliams and Connolly wants the very top of the class at Columbia and UVA. Covington isn't going below median at Columbia but only taking top 10 percent at UVA. The other thing about this post that really makes it look like a flame is that saying that your firms is Southern and has people in the summer class from Harvard, Columbia, UVA, and Duke heavily narrows down the firms that you could even be talking about--and that's not how any of those firms work.

Edit- This is actually a good opportunity to show a useful trick for trying to figure out what sort of grades you need from a school to get a firm job. It's also one of the first ways I found out that a lot of info on TLS is garbage when it comes to legal hiring. Search for associates at the firms you're interested in and then look for the one's that go to the school you're curious about. It doesn't work so well for schools like UVA that don't have many identifiers for high grades. But ironically enough it actually works great for CCN because all 3 of those schools differentiate between class ranks via more than just order of the coif (i.e they have cum laude, magna, summa, honors, high honors etc.) . But even with a school like UVA you can often tell based off of clerkships. If you see appellate clerkship--that means that they had freaking high grades. The following is just one example of how things really are in many secondary markets when it comes to grades at the top 14.

http://www.kslaw.com/people/James-Pratt
http://www.kslaw.com/people/Jeffrey-Dutson

I don't really know what your deal is since you seem pretty obsessed with hammering home the difference between CCN and HYS for secondary markets on TLS but I'm just providing a data point that shows your categorical statement does not always hold true. I'm only purporting to speak from my experience and not making the claim that I know how all firms in all secondary markets look at students from different law schools.

[Aberzombie1892]

I think what Bruce Wayne is trying to say is that, in a secondary market, it is better to be summa cum laude (and maybe magna) at a regional school than non-latin honors from a T14 (that's not HYS). Generally, that makes sense.

Bruce, did you try to target a secondary market from your T14 and strike out? And then tried to target another, larger market but it was too late?

[swampthang]

I don't know about the midwest, but I work at a large firm in Boston and the vast majority of our summer class (>50%) is from in-market T1s (BU/BC) as opposed to other T14s (2 people). I don't know others' class ranks but I would imagine that they are similar to yours. I believe that this is the case at most firms in Boston outside of Ropes, WH, and possibly Goodwin. Of course Boston is known to be an insular market, but I would guess that most secondary markets are as well.

How big is your summer class that BU/BC are >50%?? Someone posted in the summer class thread that Wilmer, Ropes, and Goodwin had a large number of HYS with a very small number of BU/BC. I was under the impression that those firms hired the lion's share of SAs in Boston.

[Renne Walker]

. . .some 1L SAs are handed out to T10 students before first semester grades come out.

Credited.

I received a 1L SA position before grades were available. When my second semester grades dropped noticeably, it was not an issue (nor even discussed). Every SA at our BL firm was offered. It is understandable why some believe grades are crucial, however, sometimes it is about the school and how the interview goes.

FWIW: I know of someone hired on the spot while others (interviewing at the same firm) had to go through hoops, including submitting grades.

[AllTheLawz]

I don't know about the midwest, but I work at a large firm in Boston and the vast majority of our summer class (>50%) is from in-market T1s (BU/BC) as opposed to other T14s (2 people). I don't know others' class ranks but I would imagine that they are similar to yours. I believe that this is the case at most firms in Boston outside of Ropes, WH, and possibly Goodwin. Of course Boston is known to be an insular market, but I would guess that most secondary markets are as well.

How big is your summer class that BU/BC are >50%?? Someone posted in the summer class thread that Wilmer, Ropes, and Goodwin had a large number of HYS with a very small number of BU/BC. I was under the impression that those firms hired the lion's share of SAs in Boston.

This is a distorted way to look at it. Boston firms make tons of offers at H, it's just that a lot of people dont accept anything other than Wilmer/Ropes/Goodwin (and not even so much Goodwin).