T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:55 am

I am top 15% at a BigT1en law school looking to be in a mid-sized midwest city (Ohio Cle Col Cin, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Louisville). How much encroachment will there be for the limited SA slots in these smaller markets from T14 students? Am I going to be competing with the lowly 50% at these prestigious legal institutions?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:24 am

I wouldn’t worry about HYS. Those at the CCNP bottom 20% will likely show up on your doorstep. If the market is as bad as some say, figure median and below T7-14ers will soon be looking in your direction. After all, they have a heavy $$ load to repay and the $$ has to come from somewhere.

I know a few already looking in the Pittsburg, Columbus sized markets. I have a T6 median friend heading to Atlanta for a job fair. Word is (depending who you talk to) Atlanta is a bloodbath. So yes, those T14ers will be stalking firms who rarely hear from “elite” schools. Most firms will be delighted (if not shocked) to hear from Columbia, NYU or Penn since those schools offer great prestige to the associate lineup.

Sad for the T14ers forced to take that route and ditto for the area law students having to deal with them.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am top 15% at a BigT1en law school looking to be in a mid-sized midwest city (Ohio Cle Col Cin, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Louisville). How much encroachment will there be for the limited SA slots in these smaller markets from T14 students? Am I going to be competing with the lowly 50% at these prestigious legal institutions?



I (1L) summered at a very large secondary market law firm. Out of my office's class of 11 I was the only T14er (there was also one texas, though) but I was top 25%. My firm at least definitely preferreed the top of local schools to T14 dregs.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:31 am

Probably more than you think. I'm one of at least two above-median students at my T14 targeting a particular Midwestern secondary market. And my T14 isn't even in the Midwest.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:Probably more than you think. I'm one of at least two above-median students at my T14 targeting a particular Midwestern secondary market. And my T14 isn't even in the Midwest.


Do you have ties to the Midwestern secondary market?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Probably more than you think. I'm one of at least two above-median students at my T14 targeting a particular Midwestern secondary market. And my T14 isn't even in the Midwest.


Do you have ties to the Midwestern secondary market?


Yup. I don't think you have to worry about T14 students targeting markets in which they have no ties. But a decent number of students head to the T14 with at least some intention of returning to their home markets.

User avatar
Lwoods
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:27 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Lwoods » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am top 15% at a BigT1en law school looking to be in a mid-sized midwest city (Ohio Cle Col Cin, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Louisville). How much encroachment will there be for the limited SA slots in these smaller markets from T14 students? Am I going to be competing with the lowly 50% at these prestigious legal institutions?


I suspect you'll be competing with students from the top 10% of more prestigious schools (unless you're at Michigan or Northwestern, in which case, peer schools). The top firms in those cities have very small summer classes, and there are likely individuals from each of those cities represented in just about every T14, many of whom want to return, some of whom are at the top of their class. When SA class sizes are 1-4, the competition can be pretty steep.

Different firms look for different things, though, and some are more partial to local schools than others. Just worry about being the best candidate you can be, focus on why you would be a good fit for those firms, and don't worry about the other applicants. Know that they're there and you have to work for any opportunity you want, but don't stress about them because you can't change them.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:02 pm

Lwoods wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am top 15% at a BigT1en law school looking to be in a mid-sized midwest city (Ohio Cle Col Cin, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Louisville). How much encroachment will there be for the limited SA slots in these smaller markets from T14 students? Am I going to be competing with the lowly 50% at these prestigious legal institutions?


I suspect you'll be competing with students from the top 10% of more prestigious schools (unless you're at Michigan or Northwestern, in which case, peer schools). The top firms in those cities have very small summer classes, and there are likely individuals from each of those cities represented in just about every T14, many of whom want to return, some of whom are at the top of their class. When SA class sizes are 1-4, the competition can be pretty steep.

Different firms look for different things, though, and some are more partial to local schools than others. Just worry about being the best candidate you can be, focus on why you would be a good fit for those firms, and don't worry about the other applicants. Know that they're there and you have to work for any opportunity you want, but don't stress about them because you can't change them.

TITCR.

I worked at a large firm in a secondary market and I would say more than half the class was made up of Harvard/Yale/Chicago/Virginia types. And these were not bottom of the class people, either. The ones who came from lower ranked schools were in the top 5%. Depending on the firm and the secondary market, competition can be extremely stiff.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:29 pm

TITCR.

I worked at a large firm in a secondary market and I would say more than half the class was made up of Harvard/Yale/Chicago/Virginia types. And these were not bottom of the class people, either. The ones who came from lower ranked schools were in the top 5%. Depending on the firm and the secondary market, competition can be extremely stiff



Was that large firm headquartered locally or was it a more national firm

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Slightly above median at P, looking to return to one of those markets you listed. Definitely not the only one here looking to return to these size cities either.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Honestly, people on here don't want to hear this because a lot of them are at top schools, but you are in a MUCH better situation for landing a job in your secondary market than someone who is even MEDIAN at a top 14. And I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY including the so called "top 6" schools with the exception of the top 14 schools that are strong in your region and HYS (and that's assuming that the student from that local top 14 and HYS has strong ties to your market). So in your case you will have to compete with median and above students at Michigan/UChicago/NU. Realistically though, you're probably only competing with top 1/3 Michigan/UChicago/NU students WITH ties.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:05 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Honestly, people on here don't want to hear this because a lot of them are at top schools, but you are in a MUCH better situation for landing a job in your secondary market than someone who is even MEDIAN at a top 14. And I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY including the so called "top 6" schools with the exception of the top 14 schools that are strong in your region and HYS (and that's assuming that the student from that local top 14 and HYS has strong ties to your market). So in your case you will have to compete with median and above students at Michigan/UChicago/NU. Realistically though, you're probably only competing with top 1/3 Michigan/UChicago/NU students WITH ties.


OP here. Yeah I don't want to delude myself but I feel like I will at least be competetive (being at a T1 with a strong reputation in the state) versus median kids from top 14 depending on their ties of course. But obviously someone with an equal or relatively lower rank than me from a better school and equal ties is going to win out. Except when I master my Goblike magic tricks for the interview.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Honestly, people on here don't want to hear this because a lot of them are at top schools, but you are in a MUCH better situation for landing a job in your secondary market than someone who is even MEDIAN at a top 14. And I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY including the so called "top 6" schools with the exception of the top 14 schools that are strong in your region and HYS (and that's assuming that the student from that local top 14 and HYS has strong ties to your market). So in your case you will have to compete with median and above students at Michigan/UChicago/NU. Realistically though, you're probably only competing with top 1/3 Michigan/UChicago/NU students WITH ties.


OP here. Yeah I don't want to delude myself but I feel like I will at least be competetive (being at a T1 with a strong reputation in the state) versus median kids from top 14 depending on their ties of course. But obviously someone with an equal or relatively lower rank than me from a better school and equal ties is going to win out. Except when I master my Goblike magic tricks for the interview.


You're going to beat top 14 median 9 times out of 10. Really probably every time assuming you're on law review.

User avatar
homestyle28
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:48 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby homestyle28 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Honestly, people on here don't want to hear this because a lot of them are at top schools, but you are in a MUCH better situation for landing a job in your secondary market than someone who is even MEDIAN at a top 14. And I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY including the so called "top 6" schools with the exception of the top 14 schools that are strong in your region and HYS (and that's assuming that the student from that local top 14 and HYS has strong ties to your market). So in your case you will have to compete with median and above students at Michigan/UChicago/NU. Realistically though, you're probably only competing with top 1/3 Michigan/UChicago/NU students WITH ties.


OP here. Yeah I don't want to delude myself but I feel like I will at least be competetive (being at a T1 with a strong reputation in the state) versus median kids from top 14 depending on their ties of course. But obviously someone with an equal or relatively lower rank than me from a better school and equal ties is going to win out. Except when I master my Goblike magic tricks for the interview.


I'd suspect this varies by both the firm and individual recruiters. The NU alums I met in Cbus seemed to think that a fair number of firms jump at the chance to get a t-14 kid over Ohio State. But I'm sure if the hiring comittee is chock full of buckeyes, that will effect things.While I doubt you have much to fear from the bottom of the class at most t-14s (except HYS), I got the sense that other things (i.e. ties) being equal the median t-14 kid gets the nod over top 10% at OSU. FWIW most people I know at NU think of secondary markets as their fall back position, not what they're gunning for, the potential enthusiasm gap may help distinguish you at the interview level.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:17 pm

homestyle28 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Honestly, people on here don't want to hear this because a lot of them are at top schools, but you are in a MUCH better situation for landing a job in your secondary market than someone who is even MEDIAN at a top 14. And I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY including the so called "top 6" schools with the exception of the top 14 schools that are strong in your region and HYS (and that's assuming that the student from that local top 14 and HYS has strong ties to your market). So in your case you will have to compete with median and above students at Michigan/UChicago/NU. Realistically though, you're probably only competing with top 1/3 Michigan/UChicago/NU students WITH ties.


OP here. Yeah I don't want to delude myself but I feel like I will at least be competetive (being at a T1 with a strong reputation in the state) versus median kids from top 14 depending on their ties of course. But obviously someone with an equal or relatively lower rank than me from a better school and equal ties is going to win out. Except when I master my Goblike magic tricks for the interview.


I'd suspect this varies by both the firm and individual recruiters. The NU alums I met in Cbus seemed to think that a fair number of firms jump at the chance to get a t-14 kid over Ohio State. But I'm sure if the hiring comittee is chock full of buckeyes, that will effect things.While I doubt you have much to fear from the bottom of the class at most t-14s (except HYS), I got the sense that other things (i.e. ties) being equal the median t-14 kid gets the nod over top 10% at OSU. FWIW most people I know at NU think of secondary markets as their fall back position, not what they're gunning for, the potential enthusiasm gap may help distinguish you at the interview level.


+1, I really think it varies by firm.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:+1, I really think it varies by firm.


If the Midwest firms are anything like Southern one's, then no, it doesn't. And to be honest, from what I've seen of NU's GPA charts they seem to operate quite similarly to Southern firms.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:+1, I really think it varies by firm.


If the Midwest firms are anything like Southern one's, then no, it doesn't. And to be honest, from what I've seen of NU's GPA charts they seem to operate quite similarly to Southern firms.


I can think of a handful of firms in my target market that would almost definitely opt for the T14 student with decent grades over the local student with top grades. And I can think of a handful of firms that would almost definitely opt for the reverse. I know you love your blanket statements, but I'm not sure this one holds true in the Midwest, a region in which you don't seem to have much (any?) experience.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I can think of a handful of firms in my target market that would almost definitely opt for the T14 student with decent grades over the local student with top grades. And I can think of a handful of firms that would almost definitely opt for the reverse. I know you love your blanket statements, but I'm not sure this one holds true in the Midwest, a region in which you don't seem to have much (any?) experience.


Why is this anonymous? And like I said the midwest may be different from the South--I don't know. But from the hard verified data I've seen it doesn't seem to be much different (i.e actual NU GPA charts). And no one is saying that they won't opt for decent grades from a top 14. But to many firms decent grades really isn't median or below.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:45 pm

What if a firm can't put "with honors" or "order of the coif" or "magna cum laude" next to that t14's name on their internet law firm profile? Get that crap out of my mid-sized market.

User avatar
Stringer Bell
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Stringer Bell » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:46 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:+1, I really think it varies by firm.


If the Midwest firms are anything like Southern one's, then no, it doesn't. And to be honest, from what I've seen of NU's GPA charts they seem to operate quite similarly to Southern firms.


What GPA charts are you referencing?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:53 pm

Not looking at midwestern cities... but I'm top fifteen percent at MVP and am looking at mostly secondary markets.

I know that several other similarly situated classmates are doing the same.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:54 pm

Summered at a Cleveland firm. Out of the 8 2Ls, 5 were from T14s (Harvard, 2 Dukies, Cornell, G-town). And I don't think that they were below 50% at their respective schools because one is the Editor-in-Chief of a journal, and another has many A's and a CALI award in what I consider as substantial classes.

User avatar
pjo
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:14 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby pjo » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What if a firm can't put "with honors" or "order of the coif" or "magna cum laude" next to that t14's name on their internet law firm profile? Get that crap out of my mid-sized market.


Clients don't know what Order of the Coif or CALI or even Law review is. Clients know that (most) top schools are top schools though.

And the one poster above has it right, it's really a firm preference. I go to a T10 and I went there with the intention of returning to my secondary market, regardless of my grades. So far I've had mixed responses, with some firms ecstatic to have me come in and interview as quickly as possible, and then other firms I haven't heard a peep from. You can also determine this by looking at the profiles of the newest junior associates at the firm. If most are from the local school, chances are that's what the firm likes. On the other hand, if there's at least half from T14, then that's likely what the firm prefers.
Last edited by pjo on Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:58 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Honestly, people on here don't want to hear this because a lot of them are at top schools, but you are in a MUCH better situation for landing a job in your secondary market than someone who is even MEDIAN at a top 14. And I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY including the so called "top 6" schools with the exception of the top 14 schools that are strong in your region and HYS (and that's assuming that the student from that local top 14 and HYS has strong ties to your market). So in your case you will have to compete with median and above students at Michigan/UChicago/NU. Realistically though, you're probably only competing with top 1/3 Michigan/UChicago/NU students WITH ties.


OP here. Yeah I don't want to delude myself but I feel like I will at least be competetive (being at a T1 with a strong reputation in the state) versus median kids from top 14 depending on their ties of course. But obviously someone with an equal or relatively lower rank than me from a better school and equal ties is going to win out. Except when I master my Goblike magic tricks for the interview.


You're going to beat top 14 median 9 times out of 10. Really probably every time assuming you're on law review.

This does depend on the strength of the T14 student's ties, correct?

And I really wouldn't consider it "encroachment" if the T14 student has a legitimate reason for wanting to be there.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273475
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: T-14 students encroaching on secondary markets

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Summered at a Cleveland firm. Out of the 8 2Ls, 5 were from T14s (Harvard, 2 Dukies, Cornell, G-town). And I don't think that they were below 50% at their respective schools because one is the Editor-in-Chief of a journal, and another has many A's and a CALI award in what I consider as substantial classes.


V100 firm?




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.