patent law writing sample

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fatduck
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patent law writing sample

Postby fatduck » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:09 pm

i have a random question and couldn't think what thread to put it in. i did patent pros this summer and want to use an office action reply as a writing sample. should i just use the remarks section or include the claim amendments? the claims are pretty long and complex, but the remarks on their own are only ~4 pages, which seems a little short.

Anonymous User
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:22 pm

fatduck wrote:i have a random question and couldn't think what thread to put it in. i did patent pros this summer and want to use an office action reply as a writing sample. should i just use the remarks section or include the claim amendments? the claims are pretty long and complex, but the remarks on their own are only ~4 pages, which seems a little short.

Is this publicly accessible information on PAIR?

Are you applying for prosecution jobs? Do you have the client's permission to do this? What about your 1L firm's permission?

Either way, I don't see the need to do this, although it is pretty creative and interesting. You're signaling to your future employer that you're likely to use work product you generate during their employ, to other employers. That's not a smart signal to send out. You're basically planning to mass-mail work product you created during one law firm's employ. Something about that seems a bit odd.

I submitted a memo from when I was a patent litigation summer associate during 2L OCI. But I abstracted everything out, i.e., deleted patent number, changed prior art reference titles, etc.

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fatduck
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby fatduck » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
fatduck wrote:i have a random question and couldn't think what thread to put it in. i did patent pros this summer and want to use an office action reply as a writing sample. should i just use the remarks section or include the claim amendments? the claims are pretty long and complex, but the remarks on their own are only ~4 pages, which seems a little short.

Is this publicly accessible information on PAIR?

Are you applying for prosecution jobs? Do you have the client's permission to do this? What about your 1L firm's permission?

Either way, I don't see the need to do this, although it is pretty creative and interesting. You're signaling to your future employer that you're likely to use work product you generate during their employ, to other employers. That's not a smart signal to send out. You're basically planning to mass-mail work product you created during one law firm's employ. Something about that seems a bit odd.

I submitted a memo from when I was a patent litigation summer associate during 2L OCI. But I abstracted everything out, i.e., deleted patent number, changed prior art reference titles, etc.

seriously? of course i have the firm's permission. and yes, it is publicly accessible on PAIR.

Anonymous User
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:27 pm

fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
fatduck wrote:i have a random question and couldn't think what thread to put it in. i did patent pros this summer and want to use an office action reply as a writing sample. should i just use the remarks section or include the claim amendments? the claims are pretty long and complex, but the remarks on their own are only ~4 pages, which seems a little short.

Is this publicly accessible information on PAIR?

Are you applying for prosecution jobs? Do you have the client's permission to do this? What about your 1L firm's permission?

Either way, I don't see the need to do this, although it is pretty creative and interesting. You're signaling to your future employer that you're likely to use work product you generate during their employ, to other employers. That's not a smart signal to send out. You're basically planning to mass-mail work product you created during one law firm's employ. Something about that seems a bit odd.

I submitted a memo from when I was a patent litigation summer associate during 2L OCI. But I abstracted everything out, i.e., deleted patent number, changed prior art reference titles, etc.

seriously? of course i have the firm's permission. and yes, it is publicly accessible on PAIR.


what about the client's permission? i would err on the safe side for this stuff.

this is a writing SAMPLE. the whole purpose is to show you can write. i just don't see good sense in writing about actual entities involved in any case, may it be criminal or civil.

do you realize how "abundance of caution"-oriented the legal profession is? If you abstract everything out, you will showcase your cautious judgment. If you don't, you won't.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:28 pm

fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
fatduck wrote:i have a random question and couldn't think what thread to put it in. i did patent pros this summer and want to use an office action reply as a writing sample. should i just use the remarks section or include the claim amendments? the claims are pretty long and complex, but the remarks on their own are only ~4 pages, which seems a little short.

Is this publicly accessible information on PAIR?

Are you applying for prosecution jobs? Do you have the client's permission to do this? What about your 1L firm's permission?

Either way, I don't see the need to do this, although it is pretty creative and interesting. You're signaling to your future employer that you're likely to use work product you generate during their employ, to other employers. That's not a smart signal to send out. You're basically planning to mass-mail work product you created during one law firm's employ. Something about that seems a bit odd.

I submitted a memo from when I was a patent litigation summer associate during 2L OCI. But I abstracted everything out, i.e., deleted patent number, changed prior art reference titles, etc.

seriously? of course i have the firm's permission. and yes, it is publicly accessible on PAIR.



heh heh. if you are applying for a prosecution group, then go for it.

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fatduck
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby fatduck » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:what about the client's permission?

come on, man. if you're gonna troll me at least have the balls to use your username.

the work is cleared to use as a writing sample. i'm just asking if i should include the claims.

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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:31 pm

fatduck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:what about the client's permission?

come on, man. if you're gonna troll me at least have the balls to use your username.

the work is cleared to use as a writing sample. i'm just asking if i should include the claims.

not trolling. anon because im interviewing at the Loyola patent fair for my firm.

wow you have a lot to learn about the practice of law.

AC Vegas
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby AC Vegas » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:33 pm

How much of it is boilerplate stuff? 4 pages seems decent enough as long as it doesn't have a lot of prewritten paragraphs. I think including the claim amendments would be ok to make it the average length although that is just my opinion as a non-hiring type

eta: the anon person takes writing samples too seriously.

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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:34 pm

AC Vegas wrote:How much of it is boilerplate stuff? 4 pages seems decent enough as long as it doesn't have a lot of prewritten paragraphs. I think including the claim amendments would be ok to make it the average length although that is just my opinion as a non-hiring type

eta: the anon person takes writing samples too seriously.

last year, at the loyola fair, we had a student submit a motion for summary judgment he'd written for a patent litigant.

he claimed he wrote the whole motion himself. in its final form. do you realize what a monumentally stupid mistake that is? do you know why doing that is a mistake? we were chatting at the attorneys lounge with people from other firms who brought that clueless guy up as well. don't be that guy this week in chicago.

AC Vegas
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby AC Vegas » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AC Vegas wrote:How much of it is boilerplate stuff? 4 pages seems decent enough as long as it doesn't have a lot of prewritten paragraphs. I think including the claim amendments would be ok to make it the average length although that is just my opinion as a non-hiring type

eta: the anon person takes writing samples too seriously.

last year, at the loyola fair, we had a student submit a motion for summary judgment he'd written for a patent litigant.

he claimed he wrote the whole motion himself. in its final form. do you realize what a monumentally stupid mistake that is? do you know why doing that is a mistake? we were chatting at the attorneys lounge with people from other firms who brought that clueless guy up as well. don't be that guy this week in chicago.


What does this have to do with OPs question.

So you're saying lying in a job application is bad?

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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:40 pm

AC Vegas wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
AC Vegas wrote:How much of it is boilerplate stuff? 4 pages seems decent enough as long as it doesn't have a lot of prewritten paragraphs. I think including the claim amendments would be ok to make it the average length although that is just my opinion as a non-hiring type

eta: the anon person takes writing samples too seriously.

last year, at the loyola fair, we had a student submit a motion for summary judgment he'd written for a patent litigant.

he claimed he wrote the whole motion himself. in its final form. do you realize what a monumentally stupid mistake that is? do you know why doing that is a mistake? we were chatting at the attorneys lounge with people from other firms who brought that clueless guy up as well. don't be that guy this week in chicago.


What does this have to do with OPs question.


Do you know how law firms bill? What they want their clients to know v. not know? Do you know what clients think about law firm JUNIOR associates, let alone SUMMER associates? Do you then understand what law firms DON'T want their clients KNOWING about who exactly works on their matters?

Trust me on this - if you're interviewing with a law FIRM, the LAST thing you want to do is show them how clueless you are about how law firms work/think. Showing what you were allowed to do at a firm is a monumentally stupid mistake, especially if you're interviewing with a high-end prosecution boutique.

Now, little itty-bitty prosecution groups go so far as letting summers exchange emails with actual clients. Mostly because their clients don't really care about that kind of thing. But if you're interviewing at MoFo, for instance, please don't share billed work at a prior outfit as your WRITING SAMPLE.

JFC man, has nobody told you that law firms basically have to find ways to justify HAVING junior associates working on cases ITE?

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fatduck
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby fatduck » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:48 pm

this diatribe gets stranger with each edit

lol

AC Vegas
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby AC Vegas » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AC Vegas wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
AC Vegas wrote:How much of it is boilerplate stuff? 4 pages seems decent enough as long as it doesn't have a lot of prewritten paragraphs. I think including the claim amendments would be ok to make it the average length although that is just my opinion as a non-hiring type

eta: the anon person takes writing samples too seriously.

last year, at the loyola fair, we had a student submit a motion for summary judgment he'd written for a patent litigant.

he claimed he wrote the whole motion himself. in its final form. do you realize what a monumentally stupid mistake that is? do you know why doing that is a mistake? we were chatting at the attorneys lounge with people from other firms who brought that clueless guy up as well. don't be that guy this week in chicago.


What does this have to do with OPs question.


Do you know how law firms bill? What they want their clients to know v. not know? Do you know what clients think about law firm JUNIOR associates, let alone SUMMER associates? Do you then understand what law firms DON'T want their clients KNOWING about who exactly works on their matters?

Trust me on this - if you're interviewing with a law FIRM, the LAST thing you want to do is show them how clueless you are about how law firms work/think. Showing what you were allowed to do at a firm is a monumentally stupid mistake, especially if you're interviewing with a high-end prosecution boutique.

Now, little itty-bitty prosecution groups go so far as letting summers exchange emails with actual clients. Mostly because their clients don't really care about that kind of thing. But if you're interviewing at MoFo, for instance, please don't share billed work at a prior outfit as your WRITING SAMPLE.

JFC man, has nobody told you that law firms basically have to find ways to justify HAVING junior associates working on cases ITE?


Not sure what you're freaking out about guy. I gave my opinion as someone who has considered using work product instead of LRW work for patent interviews. FWIW, I ended up using LRW stuff just because it was easier. I disagree with your overdramatic view of writing samples. OP can decide for himself.

fatduck wrote:this diatribe gets stranger with each edit

lol

Seriously

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fatduck
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby fatduck » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:56 pm

AC Vegas wrote:Not sure what you're freaking out about guy. I gave my opinion as someone who has considered using work product instead of LRW work for patent interviews. FWIW, I ended up using LRW stuff just because it was easier. I disagree with your overdramatic view of writing samples. OP can decide for himself.

fatduck wrote:this diatribe gets stranger with each edit

lol

Seriously

i think i may just go with the LRW memo. looking back through my OA's, i don't think any of them have enough non-boilerplate, persuasive-writing "meat".

but lol at this thread

Anonymous User
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:29 am

fatduck wrote:i have a random question and couldn't think what thread to put it in. i did patent pros this summer and want to use an office action reply as a writing sample. should i just use the remarks section or include the claim amendments? the claims are pretty long and complex, but the remarks on their own are only ~4 pages, which seems a little short.



What you can do is to list the App No., and say that you drafted that OA response.

Try not to use the response as your sample before it's filed with the USPTO (or published on PAIR).

rad lulz
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:33 am

Just do you LRW shit bc it's easier bro.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Big Shrimpin » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:29 am

rad lulz wrote:Just do you LRW shit bc it's easier bro.



Yeah, duck. Way back when I did OCI (as you know, I'm a patent lit breh), I just used an academic piece.

I'm also 99.999% sure that nobody ever read it.

Anonymous User
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:40 am

I recently mass mailed a firm and they got back to me asking for 2 writing samples, preferably a patent application and a Office Action Response. A separate firm had also contacted me asking for an application numbers of some of the work I have done so he could look it up on PAIR.

I see nothing wrong with using an Office Action Response as a legal writing sample. In fact, it shows you that you have been doing relevant work in the field. Even if they think you did not write the whole thing by yourself, you have surrounded yourself with the type of work you will be doing next summer, which is more than a lot of people.

I say and recommend you to bring the Office Action Response. Just include a cover page and disclosure that the sample is to be used only for hiring purposes and should not be distributed for any other reason.

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gyarados
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Re: patent law writing sample

Postby gyarados » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:not trolling. anon because im interviewing at the Loyola patent fair for my firm.

wow you have a lot to learn about the practice of law.

You clearly work for some TTT patent shop that would take fatduck if he showed up to the interview naked. lulz.




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