Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

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Anonymous User
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Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:14 am

So, I know most employers don't really care about 1L employment just as along as you have some experience in the legal field. But is there a hierarchy of 1L summer experiences for BigLaw? Does having a Federal Judicial Internship, AG's office, 1L BigLaw summer, Fed Agency, etc experience give you an edge over having a state or local judicial internship or working with a small firms, et al.?

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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:43 am

Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks

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TTH
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby TTH » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:51 am

First, who the fuck works for the United States Supreme Court during their first-year summer? Is that a real thing?

Second, for biglaw, nothing you do first-year summer is going to especially help you, at least to the extent that you can plan for it. Sure, it would be a fantastic coincidence if you interned for a judge that your interviewer or hiring partner clerked for, but you can't plan for that. Avoid doing something that might be a biglaw turn-off by demonstrating a clear interest in another field of law (i.e., public defender etc) if you can help it, but for a large, multi-practice firm, the only way your 1L summer can really be determinative is if you get 1L biglaw then get to go back the next summer.

Anonymous User
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:53 am

Just have something interesting to talk about. If your 1L summer work coincides with whatever theme your going for during your interview, I guess that helps (i.e. RAing for a civpro professor when you really want lit) or something like that.

de5igual
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby de5igual » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:54 am

relevant tiers:

1L SA > paid legal > unpaid legal > everything else

1L SA can turn into 2L SA
paid legal > unpaid legal bc of $

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BEAST_mode
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby BEAST_mode » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks



Government is too big to lump into one category. General Counsel's office at cabinet agencies/FCC/SEC/NLRB etc. is going to be viewed differently than municipal or state level internships. I've heard the former is on par with Fed. Dist. Art. III, especially if the work you did is related to your intended practice area.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks


1) Why is this anon?
2) Since when did interning for a judge for free become better or more prestigous than working for 3K a week (and having a safety net firm to return to going into 2L OCI)?

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nevdash
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby nevdash » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:03 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks


1) Why is this anon?
2) Since when did interning for a judge for free become better or more prestigous than working for 3K a week (and having a safety net firm to return to going into 2L OCI)?

At least annecdotally, my roommate chose to work for a federal COA judge instead of working for WLRK his 1L year.

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BEAST_mode
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby BEAST_mode » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:10 pm

nevdash wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks


1) Why is this anon?
2) Since when did interning for a judge for free become better or more prestigous than working for 3K a week (and having a safety net firm to return to going into 2L OCI)?

At least annecdotally, my roommate chose to work for a federal COA judge instead of working for WLRK his 1L year.


Backhand him/her for me, would you?

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piccolittle
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby piccolittle » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:11 pm

I went on about this a bit in the "Things you wish you'd known before OCI" thread, but I think 1L summer can really matter. Working for someone with connections and/or an employer with prestige can go a really, really long way during your 1L summer. I have met so many people at so many different firms who either worked for my company, know someone who works there, or know someone who is going on secondment there. I've also lined up several interviews and lunches because my boss takes me to firm client events.

That said, for me:

1L biglaw with opportunity for 2L summer
Paid in-house with connections/prestige
Unpaid in-house with connections/prestige
Everything else

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2LsAPlenty
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:12 pm

Depending on the small firm (2nd tier for example or boutique), I could put the small firm ahead of several of these.

RPK34
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby RPK34 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks


Was it really necessary to include the Supreme Court on this list? Are there really unpaid big law gigs? And since when is a CoA judge better than big law?

chasgoose
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby chasgoose » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:16 pm

nevdash wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks


1) Why is this anon?
2) Since when did interning for a judge for free become better or more prestigous than working for 3K a week (and having a safety net firm to return to going into 2L OCI)?

At least annecdotally, my roommate chose to work for a federal COA judge instead of working for WLRK his 1L year.


First of all this is probably appropriate since there is nothing rising 2L's can do about this now: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=189981

Second, your friend is really dumb. Interning for a judge, no matter how prestigious, means nothing. It would have been much better to take the 1L paid job, espeically with WLRK.

Whoever said 1L SA>Paid job>>>Unpaid job that you can get a grant from your school for>>>>>>> unpaid job with no grant is correct. Interning for a judge can be good, if your judge/his or her clerks let you do interesting things. Otherwise it can be absolutely terrible and a wast of time. Any job that holds potential for future employment is also good (i.e. you can get an offer to return next summer/full time after graduation). With unpaid PI type stuff, after taking into account whether your school can give you a grant (NYU, for example, guarantees PI grants for almost every non-private sector job except judicial internships) it's better to do something that you will get something to talk about at OCI than something that is "prestigious." No one really cares what you do, and with very few exceptions, what you do isn't going to be prestigious enough to make a difference.

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nevdash
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby nevdash » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:30 pm

chasgoose wrote:
nevdash wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Based on what I've seen / heard (and anyone feel free to correct me):

Federal CoA / USSC
Paid big law
Federal district Art. III
Federal district Magistrate
State supreme court
Unpaid big law
State court, other
Government, other (i.e. NYC torts division)
Small law office
Starbucks


1) Why is this anon?
2) Since when did interning for a judge for free become better or more prestigous than working for 3K a week (and having a safety net firm to return to going into 2L OCI)?

At least annecdotally, my roommate chose to work for a federal COA judge instead of working for WLRK his 1L year.


First of all this is probably appropriate since there is nothing rising 2L's can do about this now: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=189981

Second, your friend is really dumb. Interning for a judge, no matter how prestigious, means nothing. It would have been much better to take the 1L paid job, espeically with WLRK.

Whoever said 1L SA>Paid job>>>Unpaid job that you can get a grant from your school for>>>>>>> unpaid job with no grant is correct. Interning for a judge can be good, if your judge/his or her clerks let you do interesting things. Otherwise it can be absolutely terrible and a wast of time. Any job that holds potential for future employment is also good (i.e. you can get an offer to return next summer/full time after graduation). With unpaid PI type stuff, after taking into account whether your school can give you a grant (NYU, for example, guarantees PI grants for almost every non-private sector job except judicial internships) it's better to do something that you will get something to talk about at OCI than something that is "prestigious." No one really cares what you do, and with very few exceptions, what you do isn't going to be prestigious enough to make a difference.

Disagree. First, there's a risk of doing uninteresting things in a judicial internship if you're interning with some state superior court judge in Wyoming, but you'll always do interesting stuff when interning with a CCOA judge. I interned with the same judge and it was the most fun I've ever had doing something law-related. Second, if you have the credentials to land a prestigious SA 1L year, what makes you think that you can't land a prestigious SA 2L year no matter what you do during your 1L summer? The whole risk aversion that law students have developed ITE isn't necessary for the top top students at top top schools. You can just do whatever the hell you feel like your 1L summer and know that you'll be fine.

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thesealocust
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:35 pm

f0bolous wrote:relevant tiers:

1L SA > paid legal > unpaid legal > everything else

1L SA can turn into 2L SA
paid legal > unpaid legal bc of $


+1. Most employers really don't give a shit what you did 1L summer. Your candidacy is the sum of your resume, personality/fit/interviews, and 1L GPA. Generally speaking your 1L summer options are a product of those factors, but it's just not a big deal in the eyes of employers.

Two candidates with similar credentials, one who had a Prestigious Summer and one who was a research assistant for a non-name prof, are likely to have VERY similar if not identical outcomes. The guy who was an RA may have gotten less useful experience personally (you see profs all the time, the chance to work for a judge, firm, or agency is likely more beneficial to you as a developing lawyer) but isn't going to see a ding in his employment prospects.

rad lulz
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:39 pm

thesealocust wrote:
f0bolous wrote:relevant tiers:

1L SA > paid legal > unpaid legal > everything else

1L SA can turn into 2L SA
paid legal > unpaid legal bc of $


+1. Most employers really don't give a shit what you did 1L summer. Your candidacy is the sum of your resume, personality/fit/interviews, and 1L GPA. Generally speaking your 1L summer options are a product of those factors, but it's just not a big deal in the eyes of employers.

Two candidates with similar credentials, one who had a Prestigious Summer and one who was a research assistant for a non-name prof, are likely to have VERY similar if not identical outcomes. The guy who was an RA may have gotten less useful experience personally (you see profs all the time, the chance to work for a judge, firm, or agency is likely more beneficial to you as a developing lawyer) but isn't going to see a ding in his employment prospects.

Credited. I worked for the Feds 1L summer and it only helped me in the sense that it tied into my general narrative about a certain practice area. No one gave a shit about the "PREFTIGE."

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rayiner
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby rayiner » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:54 pm

LOL no. Just no. Nobody is impressed by externing for a COA judge versus a district judge.

There is only one credited 1L summer job: paid SA. Not because of prestige, but because of $$$. After that, any paid legal work. After that, any legal work. After that, Starbucks.

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Kikero
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Kikero » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:56 pm

TTH wrote:First, who the fuck works for the United States Supreme Court during their first-year summer? Is that a real thing?



Just laughed so hard.

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thesealocust
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:58 pm

rayiner wrote:After that, Starbucks.


Not to quibble, but Starbucks isn't that prestigious as far as barista jobs go. Sure, it tops places like Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, or a restaurant where the espresso is an after-thought, but every city has independent coffee shops with much more elaborate menus and much more accomplished people pulling the shots. It varies by geography, but starbucks is just a flag that you're minimally competent at making people's drinks - it's not going to impress a biglaw interviewer who knows his lattes.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Scotusnerd » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:41 pm

thesealocust wrote:Not to quibble, but Starbucks isn't that prestigious as far as barista jobs go. Sure, it tops places like Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, or a restaurant where the espresso is an after-thought, but every city has independent coffee shops with much more elaborate menus and much more accomplished people pulling the shots. It varies by geography, but starbucks is just a flag that you're minimally competent at making people's drinks - it's not going to impress a biglaw interviewer who knows his lattes.



Where do you recommend spending your coffee internship during the summer then? Where would Starbucks rank versus Dunkin' Donuts and so on? :o

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ben4847
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby ben4847 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:51 pm

My hierarchy:

All Paid
All unpaid.

(And how could you possibly think interning for a COA judge is better than a 1L SA)

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BEAST_mode
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby BEAST_mode » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:53 pm

Scotusnerd wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Not to quibble, but Starbucks isn't that prestigious as far as barista jobs go. Sure, it tops places like Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, or a restaurant where the espresso is an after-thought, but every city has independent coffee shops with much more elaborate menus and much more accomplished people pulling the shots. It varies by geography, but starbucks is just a flag that you're minimally competent at making people's drinks - it's not going to impress a biglaw interviewer who knows his lattes.



Where do you recommend spending your coffee internship during the summer then? Where would Starbucks rank versus Dunkin' Donuts and so on? :o


Tim Hortons is TCR.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:12 pm

Smart Starbucks baristas randomly ponder to themselves whether a given product has some sort of IP infringement or whether the enterance to the building is ADA approved, then put down that they worked in house at Starbucks on complicated legal issues affecting everyday business decisions. Starbucks barista FTW.

TLSwag
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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby TLSwag » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:01 pm

thesealocust wrote:
rayiner wrote:After that, Starbucks.


Not to quibble, but Starbucks isn't that prestigious as far as barista jobs go. Sure, it tops places like Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, or a restaurant where the espresso is an after-thought, but every city has independent coffee shops with much more elaborate menus and much more accomplished people pulling the shots. It varies by geography, but starbucks is just a flag that you're minimally competent at making people's drinks - it's not going to impress a biglaw interviewer who knows his lattes.


bro... ur seriously underplaying dunkin donuts' preftige in ice coffee production. shit's crack

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Re: Hierarchy of 1L Summer Work

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:38 am

nevdash wrote:At least annecdotally, my roommate chose to work for a federal COA judge instead of working for WLRK his 1L year.


I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that the WLRK 1L summer program is 1) only for diversity candidates 2) has an explicity policy of not making offers to return 2L summer. If this is true, then I could see someone turning the program down if they felt they might have a shot at a 2L SA. This person,however, probably should have taken one of the other paid diversity spots that sometimes result in 2L offers to return, which they surely could have gotten.




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