Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:27 pm

.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:32 pm

Does anyone know anything about Morgan Lewis in SF/SV?

Thanks.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:09 am

Morgan Lewis bought out the leftovers of Brobeck Phleger when it went bust. This originally formed the core of Morgan Lewis' SF and SV offices. That being said, it's been 8-9 years since Brobeck Phleger imploded, so things have likely changed since then.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know anything about Morgan Lewis in SF/SV?

Thanks.


SF:

Heard they have a strong employment practice group. Heard similarly to poster above, that they've changed since taking things over, and that they're basically a "Satellite" office in some ways now, run from afar. This is coming from someone who didn't like it and left, though - these exist at all law firms, and I suppose he had his reasons for feeling this way.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Neatrends » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:33 am

anon168 wrote:
Neatrends wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but with what seem like more relaxed hours in bay area firms, being paid market rate in SF/SV is actually a way better deal than the same in NYC, right?


In many ways the COL in SF is greater than NYC.


How is COL higher in SF?

This index seems to say otherwise:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... isco%2C+CA

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Rotor » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:57 am

Neatrends wrote:
anon168 wrote:
Neatrends wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but with what seem like more relaxed hours in bay area firms, being paid market rate in SF/SV is actually a way better deal than the same in NYC, right?


In many ways the COL in SF is greater than NYC.


How is COL higher in SF?

This index seems to say otherwise:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... isco%2C+CA


You do realize that the top line of your post shows that the overall COL in SF is more than NYC, yes?

Consumer Prices in San Francisco, CA are 2.33% higher than in New York, NY


That and the proposition was "in many ways" SF COL is higher. That's exactly what your link shows. (See e.g. Transportation, utilities, clothing for a few examples).

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Neatrends » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:12 am

mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby hdivschool » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:18 am

This NALP article states that COL is much lower in SF: http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2010
According to NALP (in 2010), a SF salary of 121k was equivalent to the NYC salary of 160k.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:10 am

hdivschool wrote:This NALP article states that COL is much lower in SF: http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2010
According to NALP (in 2010), a SF salary of 121k was equivalent to the NYC salary of 160k.


Having lived in both places, I think COL in most of SF is comparable to living in decent part of Brooklyn.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:30 am

Neatrends wrote:Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).


Let go of this idea. It is absolutely not true. NYC work culture may overall be more intense, but believe me, SF firms are still very intense.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:50 am

tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby jarofsoup » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:00 pm

How hard would it be to get back to SF from a school like GWU? I am from the bay and I am transferring from a CA school with very bad job prospects in SoCal where I do not want to work.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.


OP here. This is mostly true. Folks at MoFo SF bill a ton, as do those at Kirkland SF. Most of the other firms in the city do, though, have requirements between 1850 and 2000. Average at my firm's SF office last year, including pro bono hours, was around 2050.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:53 pm

It's pretty straight-forward -- the firms that are doing well are billing a lot, and that should be common sense. Some SF firms that do bill less & still do well are smaller and pay less than market. I'd be nervous about the other market-paying firms where billing is less. They also have much smaller 2L class sizes, shakier financials, stealth, and are generally surrounded by bad rumors. It might be possible to arbitrage the $160K market rate somewhere, like in Denver or Miami where only a couple firms pay it & COL is lower, but in SF at least, given both COL & the dynamics of the market, I don't see how you can.

There are still ways in which SF is "less intense" -- there's less social hierarchy, it's less materialistic, people dress more casually, there's a lot more working at home. As for COL, it's important to note that to save money in rent, you have to deal with a long Muni commute or go into mediocre parts of Oakland that have crummy BART access, whereas in New York you can just head out an extra stop or two on an express line & suddenly be at Chicago/Philly levels of affordability. But most junior associates in New York don't do that anyway.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.


OP here. This is mostly true. Folks at MoFo SF bill a ton, as do those at Kirkland SF. Most of the other firms in the city do, though, have requirements between 1850 and 2000. Average at my firm's SF office last year, including pro bono hours, was around 2050.


This all sounds right for what I've learned about Bay firms. These hours are far from the 8:30-5:30 idea the earlier poster had. I think it's just that a lot of people don't realize how intense billing ("just") 2000 hours can be.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:35 pm

Any thoughts on Sheppard Mullin?

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Rotor » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:24 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.


OP here. This is mostly true. Folks at MoFo SF bill a ton, as do those at Kirkland SF. Most of the other firms in the city do, though, have requirements between 1850 and 2000. Average at my firm's SF office last year, including pro bono hours, was around 2050.


This all sounds right for what I've learned about Bay firms. These hours are far from the 8:30-5:30 idea the earlier poster had. I think it's just that a lot of people don't realize how intense billing ("just") 2000 hours can be.


But TG: 40 hours per week x 50 weeks a year=2000 hours (and a 2-week vacation!). How hard can it be?

(/sarcasm) :wink:

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 pm

Does anyone know anything about McDermott (SV)? NALP says it only take 1 SA last summer, which is really small. Think it will still be 1SA next summer?

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:28 am

Neatrends wrote:mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).


Sorry, can't let this idea hang out there without being addressed (addressed again, I see). All the lawyers I know in SF are making tremendous sacrifices. Quinn people billing north of 2400, MoFoers doing the same, have heard same stories from Bingham, Morgan Lewis; even midlaw like Farella. Let's not kid ourselves, guys, the hours are as bad as anywhere, but at least we're in the bay area.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Emma. » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Neatrends wrote:mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).


Sorry, can't let this idea hang out there without being addressed (addressed again, I see). All the lawyers I know in SF are making tremendous sacrifices. Quinn people billing north of 2400, MoFoers doing the same, have heard same stories from Bingham, Morgan Lewis; even midlaw like Farella. Let's not kid ourselves, guys, the hours are as bad as anywhere, but at least we're in the bay area.

Srsly. Anyone who thinks they'll be working 8-5 at a big firm just because they will be in the Bay Area is dreaming.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:20 am

Emma. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Neatrends wrote:mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).


Sorry, can't let this idea hang out there without being addressed (addressed again, I see). All the lawyers I know in SF are making tremendous sacrifices. Quinn people billing north of 2400, MoFoers doing the same, have heard same stories from Bingham, Morgan Lewis; even midlaw like Farella. Let's not kid ourselves, guys, the hours are as bad as anywhere, but at least we're in the bay area.

Srsly. Anyone who thinks they'll be working 8-5 at a big firm just because they will be in the Bay Area is dreaming.


that being said, there IS a BIG difference between california-style and NYC-style biglaw. NYC just has this culture of working really hard, really late, and being at the office all the time. thats not the case in california. people have families and other commitments outside of work. most california biglaw offices ARE empty at 8, while in NYC, they're often full. I think california biglaw bros prob work 100-200 hours less on average, and also come in earlier, leave later, and work more at home. there is a difference.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:52 am

There are a lot of misconceptions about working in the Bay Area. Having worked in D.C. and S.F., I can say things are maybe a little bit less intense but hours can be brutal especially if there is a deal going on. I know partners that have pulled consecutive all nighters in the days leading up to an IPO. And I remember a lot of the lit people being there around 8:00 am and they were STILL there when I left at 8pm. There were always lit people working on a SUNDAY as well. And this wasn't Mofo or Kirkland either.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know anything about McDermott (SV)? NALP says it only take 1 SA last summer, which is really small. Think it will still be 1SA next summer?


shameless bump :cry:

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Rotor » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know anything about McDermott (SV)? NALP says it only take 1 SA last summer, which is really small. Think it will still be 1SA next summer?


shameless bump :cry:

If it is that small an office and they only have one SA, the lack of action on your question is likely because noone knows.

However, the recruiting department is there to answer questions for you. If you do it right, you can make the call, introduce yourself, demonstrate your strong interest in the office and put your name on their radar in a positive way.

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Re: Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:37 am

Thoughts on thank you letters for callbacks at SV offices? General advice is that they can only hurt, but that seems to be for NYC. Worried about being too generic since I can barely remember what we talked about.




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