Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions Forum

[ilovesf]

Yeah I lived on Bush and Larkin. Too close to the Tenderloin and all the noise from Polk Street bothered me. I live in Hayes Valley now (but not on Hayes Street) and I love it.

Oh yeah I can see that. I wouldnt want to live that close to Polk. I'm on Taylor & Pine and like it but my spot is too expensive so I'm going to move soon. I love Hayes and I'd move there but it probably costs just as much

[Redamon1]

Around Rockridge BART is the way to go for more affordable options and still some fun neighborhoods within walking distance. Rockridge itself is nice. Elmwood and Downtown Berkeley are within walking distance. And all the trains to FiDi are direct and run all evening every day, unlike the trains to Berkeley that don't run at night. If you are close to the BART station, then it's really just a 25-minute ride. While I agree that the commute can add up, over a summer it's really manageable.

[Anonymous User]

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[El Pollito]

Yeah I lived on Bush and Larkin. Too close to the Tenderloin and all the noise from Polk Street bothered me. I live in Hayes Valley now (but not on Hayes Street) and I love it.

so so jealous

[Anonymous User]

How is the tax market in the Bay Area? Is it more or less impossible to get a position at a firm as a first year?

[Anonymous User]

How is the tax market in the Bay Area? Is it more or less impossible to get a position at a firm as a first year?

It's a very small market, with a lot of the headcount concentrated in SV. Baker McKenzie and Fenwick have the largest groups that I can think of (by a pretty healthy margin). A lot of the SV work is tech driven - i.e., a lot of venture capital M&A, international tax planning, IP transfer pricing (both Fenwick and Baker do a fair amount of controversy related to transfer pricing), etc. No one that I'm aware of really does financial instruments (maybe DPW in SV?). A few groups have some REIT/real estate knowledge, but there's much more of that in LA/NY.

I'm not sure how to take the second question - are you talking about lateraling or breaking in as a first year at the firm where you summer? In the first case, the market is pretty hot right now so you may be in luck (depending on academic credentials, whether you're already in a tax group, etc.). The second scenario is obviously going to be very firm-dependent and hard to predict. A lot of bay area offices don't hire for their tax group every year because the groups are so small.

ETA a little more info on type of tax work done.

[Anonymous User]

How is the tax market in the Bay Area? Is it more or less impossible to get a position at a firm as a first year?

It's a very small market, with a lot of the headcount concentrated in SV. Baker McKenzie and Fenwick have the largest groups that I can think of (by a pretty healthy margin).

I'm not sure how to take the second question - are you talking about lateraling or breaking in as a first year at the firm where you summer? In the first case, the market is pretty hot right now so you may be in luck (depending on academic credentials, whether you're already in a tax group, etc.). The second scenario is obviously going to be very firm-dependent and hard to predict. A lot of bay area offices don't hire for their tax group every year because the groups are so small.

As of at least a few years ago, Fenwick would only take around 1 tax SA per year.

[Anonymous User]

How is the tax market in the Bay Area? Is it more or less impossible to get a position at a firm as a first year?

It's a very small market, with a lot of the headcount concentrated in SV. Baker McKenzie and Fenwick have the largest groups that I can think of (by a pretty healthy margin).

I'm not sure how to take the second question - are you talking about lateraling or breaking in as a first year at the firm where you summer? In the first case, the market is pretty hot right now so you may be in luck (depending on academic credentials, whether you're already in a tax group, etc.). The second scenario is obviously going to be very firm-dependent and hard to predict. A lot of bay area offices don't hire for their tax group every year because the groups are so small.

As of at least a few years ago, Fenwick would only take around 1 tax SA per year.

Yeah, and that's unfortunately more than most offices here, which take someone every 2-3 years. Baker McKenzie hires 1-2 every year as well (and often pulls from 3Ls).

[Old Gregg]

If you want to do tax at Fenwick, just interview for the regular SA and switch groups down the line

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have input on which SF firms have the best appellate practices?

[rpupkin]

Anyone have input on which SF firms have the best appellate practices?

Unless you're going to clerk on SCOTUS, don't go to a law firm planning to do appellate work. That's particularly true in SF, as most law firms have their appellate groups in DC.

With those significant caveats in mind, I'll note that Gibson Dunn and Orrick both do some appellate work out of their SF offices. But, really, don't choose a firm based on its appellate practice. You're unlikely to end up working in that group as an associate.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have input on which SF firms have the best appellate practices?

Unless you're going to clerk on SCOTUS, don't go to a law firm planning to do appellate work. That's particularly true in SF, as most law firms have their appellate groups in DC.

With those significant caveats in mind, I'll note that Gibson Dunn and Orrick both do some appellate work out of their SF offices. But, really, don't choose a firm based on its appellate practice. You're unlikely to end up working in that group as an associate.

I'm qualified for appellate work. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Anonymous User]

Wouldn't Keker Van Nest, Lieff Cabraser, etc also be worth checking out in SF? I'm a corporate bro, so not sure who does appellate work, but I know those two firms (and a few other boutiques) are very well known in SF for lit.

[rpupkin]

Wouldn't Keker Van Nest, Lieff Cabraser, etc also be worth checking out in SF? I'm a corporate bro, so not sure who does appellate work, but I know those two firms (and a few other boutiques) are very well known in SF for lit.

Both firms are trial-focused. Like almost all litigation firms, they're involved in appellate work insofar as their trial-level cases get appealed, but they're not good destinations for an attorney who wants to do only (or mostly) appellate lit.

[rpupkin]

Anyone have input on which SF firms have the best appellate practices?

Unless you're going to clerk on SCOTUS, don't go to a law firm planning to do appellate work. That's particularly true in SF, as most law firms have their appellate groups in DC.

With those significant caveats in mind, I'll note that Gibson Dunn and Orrick both do some appellate work out of their SF offices. But, really, don't choose a firm based on its appellate practice. You're unlikely to end up working in that group as an associate.

I'm qualified for appellate work. Thanks for the suggestions.

Almost all law students are qualified for appellate work. In fact, law school generally does a better job of preparing you for appellate lit than trial lit. But the question is whether you can get hired as an appellate lawyer at a law firm. I mean no offense, but if you're asking TLS about which SF firms have the best appellate practices, then you're probably not in a good position to get hired at one.

[Anonymous User]

I'm not sure how to take the second question - are you talking about lateraling or breaking in as a first year at the firm where you summer? In the first case, the market is pretty hot right now so you may be in luck (depending on academic credentials, whether you're already in a tax group, etc.). The second scenario is obviously going to be very firm-dependent and hard to predict. A lot of bay area offices don't hire for their tax group every year because the groups are so small.

ETA a little more info on type of tax work done.

Thanks for this, I meant breaking in as a SA. My resume is all tax (IRS Office of Chief Counsel this summer, many years of experience as CPA) so I'm concerned that I'm pigeonholing myself into a specialization that doesn't exist in the market.

If you want to do tax at Fenwick, just interview for the regular SA and switch groups down the line

Does this actually happen or nah? I asked a partner at another SV firm about potentially doing this (I was a 0L considering law school) and he seemed very hesitant.

edited for quoting silliness

[ballouttacontrol]

I'm not sure how to take the second question - are you talking about lateraling or breaking in as a first year at the firm where you summer? In the first case, the market is pretty hot right now so you may be in luck (depending on academic credentials, whether you're already in a tax group, etc.). The second scenario is obviously going to be very firm-dependent and hard to predict. A lot of bay area offices don't hire for their tax group every year because the groups are so small.

ETA a little more info on type of tax work done.

Thanks for this, I meant breaking in as a SA. My resume is all tax (IRS Office of Chief Counsel this summer, many years of experience as CPA) so I'm concerned that I'm pigeonholing myself into a specialization that doesn't exist in the market.

If you want to do tax at Fenwick, just interview for the regular SA and switch groups down the line

Does this actually happen or nah? I asked a partner at another SV firm about potentially doing this (I was a 0L considering law school) and he seemed very hesitant.

edited for quoting silliness

It is common practice to pitch yourself differently in interviews than what you actually want. The only exceptions to this, that I know of, are IP and mayyyybe tax, if it is a segregated group. When u actually show up to work nowhere will remember what u said u were interested in in the interview so u can then focus on making in-roads to your desired practice group. The caveat to this is if the group is segregated from the general Summer Associate pool. I know sometimes tax can be like this, but is not always. Not a tax person though so defer to any of them around here.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have input on which SF firms have the best appellate practices?

Unless you're going to clerk on SCOTUS, don't go to a law firm planning to do appellate work. That's particularly true in SF, as most law firms have their appellate groups in DC.

With those significant caveats in mind, I'll note that Gibson Dunn and Orrick both do some appellate work out of their SF offices. But, really, don't choose a firm based on its appellate practice. You're unlikely to end up working in that group as an associate.

I'm qualified for appellate work. Thanks for the suggestions.

Almost all law students are qualified for appellate work. In fact, law school generally does a better job of preparing you for appellate lit than trial lit. But the question is whether you can get hired as an appellate lawyer at a law firm. I mean no offense, but if you're asking TLS about which SF firms have the best appellate practices, then you're probably not in a good position to get hired at one.

Look. I understand that for many folks interested in appellate work it isn't a realistic option, but that isn't true for me. I'm not going to out myself, though, so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm not some know-nothing law student and that I am in a position to get hired into an appellate group. GDC and Orrick (and to a lesser extent MTO) were all on my radar. I was just trying to find out whether there are appellate groups out there I hadn't really considered yet.

[rpupkin]

Look. I understand that for many folks interested in appellate work it isn't a reality, but that isn't true for me. I'm not going to out myself, so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm not some know-nothing law student and that I am in a position to get hired into an appellate group. GDC and Orrick (and to a lesser extent MTO) were all on my radar. I was just trying to find out whether there are appellate groups out there I hadn't really considered yet.

Fair enough.

By the way, the SF office of MTO is not a good place for someone who wants to specialize in appellate work.

And even GDC and Orrick are risky in SF. I have friends in both offices who were hired into their firm's appellate group, but the majority of their hours are trial-level lit. Unless you're a SCOTUS clerk, it's really hard to guarantee that you'll be able to specialize in appellate lit in the Bay Area. There just isn't enough appellate work to go around.

I'm sure you've already done so, but just in case: talk to former clerks of your judge who work in SF. Good luck!

[bruinfan10]

Anyone have input on which SF firms have the best appellate practices?

Unless you're going to clerk on SCOTUS, don't go to a law firm planning to do appellate work. That's particularly true in SF, as most law firms have their appellate groups in DC.

With those significant caveats in mind, I'll note that Gibson Dunn and Orrick both do some appellate work out of their SF offices. But, really, don't choose a firm based on its appellate practice. You're unlikely to end up working in that group as an associate.

I'm qualified for appellate work. Thanks for the suggestions.

Almost all law students are qualified for appellate work. In fact, law school generally does a better job of preparing you for appellate lit than trial lit. But the question is whether you can get hired as an appellate lawyer at a law firm. I mean no offense, but if you're asking TLS about which SF firms have the best appellate practices, then you're probably not in a good position to get hired at one.

Look. I understand that for many folks interested in appellate work it isn't a realistic option, but that isn't true for me. I'm not going to out myself, though, so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I'm not some know-nothing law student and that I am in a position to get hired into an appellate group. GDC and Orrick (and to a lesser extent MTO) were all on my radar. I was just trying to find out whether there are appellate groups out there I hadn't really considered yet.

Yeah if you're SCOTUS, or really fancy CoA, then it's worth checking out Jones Day's Issues and Appellate practice, decent presence in SF. A little hard to get into if you're not connected, but a cool group nonetheless.

[sundance95]

For SF SAs -- I have a nice 1 BR inlaw in my Victorian in Noe Valley. Two blocks from J-train, ~20-25 minutes to FiDi, access to large backyard (at least, large for SF). $3K/month. PM if interested.

For those who don't know SF neighborhoods very well, Noe is roughly analogous to Park Slope in NYC. Think bougie with lots of strollers. Feels like a village in the city (so probably not for folks who want that city energy 24/7).

EDIT: Would prefer if folks didn't quote this post. Thanks!

[ilovesf]

.

Really? Are you moving out? And if so, when? I might be interested but it's near the top end of my budget

Wait I just realized - is this just for people in the summer or permanent?

[sundance95]

Really? Are you moving out? And if so, when? I might be interested but it's near the top end of my budget

Wait I just realized - is this just for people in the summer or permanent?

Just edited. It's for SAs. Sorry--not trying to be a permanent landlord. #rentcontrol

[ilovesf]

Yeah I get it. I am about to start looking for a new apt though and I got overly excited. My best friend lives in Noe and I'd be psyched to live right near her

[sundance95]

Wouldn't Keker Van Nest, Lieff Cabraser, etc also be worth checking out in SF? I'm a corporate bro, so not sure who does appellate work, but I know those two firms (and a few other boutiques) are very well known in SF for lit.

Lieff's a plaintiff-side shop. Like rpupkin said, they handle appeals relating to their trials but I don't think anyone is specifically bringing them appellate work.