Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Gotcha, thanks again.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the poster from above, thanks! I say I want transactional, but I also do want to keep doors open if possible and I have plenty of bids to spare. Covington doesn't break down their practice areas on NALP, but I'm assuming they're mostly lit? Am I not competitive enough for Farella? They seem to do a fair amount of corporate work, especially in the wine industry.

Covington is mostly lit and probably wants above-median grades, even from HLS. Farella is basically a lit boutique, though you're right that they have a wine practice. I think Mayer Brown is mostly lit.

As far as your grades go, I wouldn't count yourself out at too many places, as most of these firms will take a median HLS grad if they like you. Off the top of my head, your grades probably disqualify you from Gibson, Covington, A&P, Keker, and maybe a couple of other firms. But most SF/SV offices will at least consider you.

I don't think Gibson SF or A&P SF are wasted bids at median at HLS, but I agree that Covington and Keker are out (and Covington's corporate practice in SF is quite small).

[Anonymous User]

I'm primarily interested in private public interest firms and litigation boutiques, but want to bid on a few big firms to be safe. I have very good grades and don't want to do IP. Any suggestions for best firms for litigation (not in Silicon Valley)? Also any thoughts on the litigation boutiques would be great.

All the defense-side litigation boutiques in San Francisco do a fair amount of IP lit. If you don't want to do IP, your options are very limited, especially if you're looking for a summer associate position. Altshuler Berzon seems like a good fit for you, though it's pretty tough to get a job there if you don't go to HYSB.

I agree with this. Keker, for example, does a substantial amount of IP work. When you say IP, do you mean patents, or all IP-related work? If you are only hoping to avoid patent work, some of the smaller firms could still be good fits (Shartsis Friese, Farella, Hanson, MTO, etc.)

Not sure about Hansen, but the other three all do a fair amount of patent lit as well. I mean, that's basically why MTO opened its SF office. I think it would be tough for a junior associate to avoid patent lit at any of those firms.

I actually didn't know Shartsis had a patent practice - I learned something new today. Though Farella does patents it's quite easy to avoid patent work as an associate there. Hanson has a smallish (10 people or so) IP group, but tons of non-IP litigation options. Though you're right that MTO was originally patent-heavy in SF, my experience with them is that this isn't the case anymore (though you can still do patent work there, obviously). Soft IP, securities, and more general lit seem to be their bread-and-butter now, but as I'm outing myself as someone who doesn't work at MTO and only knows them when they're on the other side, I don't know the full picture.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Might as well, since others seem to be doing it!

Background: HLS, medianish, strong ties to the area, want transactional. A few firms omitted because of interviews before OCI. Gibson and Arnold Porter are skippable, right?

Bidlist (all SF/SV, in order):

MoFo
Fenwick
Orrick
Cooley
Gunderson
Wilson Sonsini
Skadden
Ropes & Gray
Kirkland
OMM
Davis Polk
DLA Piper
Perkins Coie
Sullivan & Cromwell
Covington
Sidley Austin
Paul Hastings
Goodwin Proctor
White & Case
Jones Day
Farella Braun
Mayer Brown
Baker Botts
Pillsbury

If you want transactional, you should do more research into these firms before you bid - start with Chambers & also count the # of corp partners on firm websites and see who their clients are to get a better sense of everything. Lots of those firms have minor transactional practices at best. Off the top of my head, I know S&C and Covington don't do much corporate work in their Bay Area offices. Lots of the other ones just aren't big players.

Also, the type of corporate work at these firms will vary greatly. You'll be doing very different shit at Kirkland (PE only) than you will at Gunderson (VC/startups only). WSGR has the biggest corporate (mostly) summer class (around 44 just in Palo Alto) and does a wider range of shit (startup through IPO), though mostly for tech-type clients (Twitter, etc.). MoFo has a big SF class, but is more lit-focused. Skadden seems to just rep more-mature companies like Disney, etc.

[Anonymous User]

A couple of notes and rumors:

1. When comparing SF lit boutiques, you should look at salary schedules beyond the first year. Some shops (Hanson, Shartsis, Farella) pay anywhere from marginally less to substantially less than market as you progress to the midlevel years. Since these shops don't tend to be as up-or-out as BigLaw shops, it's a good idea to consider midlevel salaries when making a choice between offers.

2. Further to #1, I hear that associates at Farella and Shartsis were unhappy and were trying to negotiate raises with firm management, but I don't know whether those efforts succeeded.

3. I hear that Fenwick associates were very unhappy with last year's bonuses.

4. Does anyone know what salaries are like at Altshuler?

5. Does anyone know if Keker/MTO did full-market bonuses last year?

[Anonymous User]

In response to the above post:

1. Credited.

2. Also credited. At least as of a couple of years ago, Farella even started out first years below market--I think first-year base was $145K.

3. Yep. I believe ATL did a story on the unhappy Fenwick associates late last year.

4. Not sure. I think there's the potential to make above market for associates, but it's pretty black-boxy

5. After market bonuses jumped up last year, both firms raised bonuses to close to market, but I believe senior associate bonuses remained at least somewhat below market (which has historically been the case with KVN and MTO).

[Anonymous User]

In response to the above post:

1. Credited.

2. Also credited. At least as of a couple of years ago, Farella even started out first years below market--I think first-year base was $145K.

3. Yep. I believe ATL did a story on the unhappy Fenwick associates late last year.

4. Not sure. I think there's the potential to make above market for associates, but it's pretty black-boxy

5. After market bonuses jumped up last year, both firms raised bonuses to close to market, but I believe senior associate bonuses remained at least somewhat below market (which has historically been the case with KVN and MTO).

Poster you responded to. Thx for the info on Altshuler/KVN/MTO. Would like to hear any others with inside info on these firms.

[Golden Bear 11]

A couple of notes and rumors:

1. When comparing SF lit boutiques, you should look at salary schedules beyond the first year. Some shops (Hanson, Shartsis, Farella) pay anywhere from marginally less to substantially less than market as you progress to the midlevel years. Since these shops don't tend to be as up-or-out as BigLaw shops, it's a good idea to consider midlevel salaries when making a choice between offers.

2. Further to #1, I hear that associates at Farella and Shartsis were unhappy and were trying to negotiate raises with firm management, but I don't know whether those efforts succeeded.

3. I hear that Fenwick associates were very unhappy with last year's bonuses.

4. Does anyone know what salaries are like at Altshuler?

5. Does anyone know if Keker/MTO did full-market bonuses last year?

Regarding #4, Atlshuler said in symplicity job posting that it's annual salary is $68K

[Anonymous User]

Regarding #4, Atlshuler said in symplicity job posting that it's annual salary is $68K

Thx for the info, but that can't be the whole story, right? There must be some kind of profit sharing or something if that is true--we're talking about San Francisco, even a pair of DINKs both making $68K could barely live here.

[sundance95]

Surprisingly little pre-OCI chatter ITT. Is SF so expensive that no one wants to come here anymore?

[lawschool90]

Surprisingly little pre-OCI chatter ITT. Is SF so expensive that no one wants to come here anymore?

It's getting to that point. Even if you were debt-free, it'd be challenging (not impossible) to save enough to buy a home, put stuff away for retirement and your children's college funds, and still have enough left over to not scrimp and save every weekend, if your goal was to settle down in the Bay Area, buy a house in the city or the suburbs, etc. Three bedroom ranchers go for over 2m in the suburbs, and school districts vary from great to stay-away, even in nice areas. I'm originally from SF, but I've been thinking about all these things, and I have debt.

[sundance95]

Surprisingly little pre-OCI chatter ITT. Is SF so expensive that no one wants to come here anymore?

It's getting to that point. Even if you were debt-free, it'd be challenging (not impossible) to save enough to buy a home, put stuff away for retirement and your children's college funds, and still have enough left over to not scrimp and save every weekend, if your goal was to settle down in the Bay Area, buy a house in the city or the suburbs, etc. Three bedroom ranchers go for over 2m in the suburbs, and school districts vary from great to stay-away, even in nice areas. I'm originally from SF, but I've been thinking about all these things, and I have debt.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I agree that its becoming a very real issue in SF.

SF to 190?

[bruinfan10]

Surprisingly little pre-OCI chatter ITT. Is SF so expensive that no one wants to come here anymore?

It's getting to that point. Even if you were debt-free, it'd be challenging (not impossible) to save enough to buy a home, put stuff away for retirement and your children's college funds, and still have enough left over to not scrimp and save every weekend, if your goal was to settle down in the Bay Area, buy a house in the city or the suburbs, etc. Three bedroom ranchers go for over 2m in the suburbs, and school districts vary from great to stay-away, even in nice areas. I'm originally from SF, but I've been thinking about all these things, and I have debt.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I agree that its becoming a very real issue in SF.

SF to 190?

No joke, I'm likely going to ditch my SF office for someplace in LA or the midwest. The techdrones have destroyed SF. Really bummed to have been priced out of my home city.

[lawschool90]

SF to 190?

No joke, I'm likely going to ditch my SF office for someplace in LA or the midwest. The techdrones have destroyed SF. Really bummed to have been priced out of my home city.

Right? It wasn't always like this…but it's getting awful here. Also I don't like the techdrone people.

[Anonymous User]

Does STB Palo Alto office give same-day (or next business day) offer decisions like NY office?

[Anonymous User]

Does STB Palo Alto office give same-day (or next business day) decisions like NY office?

Curious, did you interview through the badcf this week?

[makerbreaker]

Does STB Palo Alto office give same-day (or next business day) decisions like NY office?

Curious, did you interview through the badcf this week?

Yes, did CB on Friday

[Anonymous User]

I know of people who interviewed earlier who haven't heard back. Maybe they're moving slower because it's the beginning of the cycle?

[makerbreaker]

I know of people who interviewed earlier who haven't heard back. Maybe they're moving slower because it's the beginning of the cycle?

That's possible. Recruiter did say one week, which still seems faster than usual.

[Anonymous User]

Stupid question hence why I am asking it anonymously online:

Is San Fransisco part of Sillicon Valley?

Also, what is the San Fransisco market known for? Banking, tech, and antitrust?

[MrProhibition]

Do many people commute from SF to PA? Love to hear from people who do about how it works for them.

[Emma.]

Do many people commute from SF to PA? Love to hear from people who do about how it works for them.

My SO does on occasion. It's a nightmare during rush hour. 1.5-2 hours each way isn't uncommon. Ain't no junior associate got time for that. (Though at least by the time you'd get off at night the drive back to the city would be relatively traffic-free. Still, even without traffic it is at least a 45 minute drive, and can be longer depending on where you live in the city.)

I guess you could shave a bit of time off the commute by living in Bernal Heights, but it'd still be tough.

[Anonymous User]

What about commuting with caltrain? Looks like the commute on bullet would be only 30 minutes and I could possibly get some work done while I sit. Not hard to read patents on a train.

[Anonymous User]

Stupid question hence why I am asking it anonymously online:

Is San Fransisco part of Sillicon Valley?

Also, what is the San Fransisco market known for? Banking, tech, and antitrust?

Bumping my own question. Any help would be awesome.

[Anonymous User]

San Francisco is not a part of Silicon Valley. Generally, San Francisco is more litigation while Silicon Valley is more corporate.