Let's Talk San Francisco - Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know anything about Morgan Lewis in SF/SV?

Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

Morgan Lewis bought out the leftovers of Brobeck Phleger when it went bust. This originally formed the core of Morgan Lewis' SF and SV offices. That being said, it's been 8-9 years since Brobeck Phleger imploded, so things have likely changed since then.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know anything about Morgan Lewis in SF/SV?

Thanks.

SF:

Heard they have a strong employment practice group. Heard similarly to poster above, that they've changed since taking things over, and that they're basically a "Satellite" office in some ways now, run from afar. This is coming from someone who didn't like it and left, though - these exist at all law firms, and I suppose he had his reasons for feeling this way.

[Neatrends]

Correct me if I'm wrong but with what seem like more relaxed hours in bay area firms, being paid market rate in SF/SV is actually a way better deal than the same in NYC, right?

In many ways the COL in SF is greater than NYC.

How is COL higher in SF?

This index seems to say otherwise:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... isco%2C+CA

[Rotor]

Correct me if I'm wrong but with what seem like more relaxed hours in bay area firms, being paid market rate in SF/SV is actually a way better deal than the same in NYC, right?

In many ways the COL in SF is greater than NYC.

How is COL higher in SF?

This index seems to say otherwise:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... isco%2C+CA

You do realize that the top line of your post shows that the overall COL in SF is more than NYC, yes?

Consumer Prices in San Francisco, CA are 2.33% higher than in New York, NY

That and the proposition was "in many ways" SF COL is higher. That's exactly what your link shows. (See e.g. Transportation, utilities, clothing for a few examples).

[Neatrends]

mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).

[hdivschool]

This NALP article states that COL is much lower in SF: http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2010
According to NALP (in 2010), a SF salary of 121k was equivalent to the NYC salary of 160k.

[Anonymous User]

This NALP article states that COL is much lower in SF: http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2010
According to NALP (in 2010), a SF salary of 121k was equivalent to the NYC salary of 160k.

Having lived in both places, I think COL in most of SF is comparable to living in decent part of Brooklyn.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).

Let go of this idea. It is absolutely not true. NYC work culture may overall be more intense, but believe me, SF firms are still very intense.

[Anonymous User]

tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.

[jarofsoup]

How hard would it be to get back to SF from a school like GWU? I am from the bay and I am transferring from a CA school with very bad job prospects in SoCal where I do not want to work.

[Anonymous User]

tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.

OP here. This is mostly true. Folks at MoFo SF bill a ton, as do those at Kirkland SF. Most of the other firms in the city do, though, have requirements between 1850 and 2000. Average at my firm's SF office last year, including pro bono hours, was around 2050.

[Anonymous User]

It's pretty straight-forward -- the firms that are doing well are billing a lot, and that should be common sense. Some SF firms that do bill less & still do well are smaller and pay less than market. I'd be nervous about the other market-paying firms where billing is less. They also have much smaller 2L class sizes, shakier financials, stealth, and are generally surrounded by bad rumors. It might be possible to arbitrage the $160K market rate somewhere, like in Denver or Miami where only a couple firms pay it & COL is lower, but in SF at least, given both COL & the dynamics of the market, I don't see how you can.

There are still ways in which SF is "less intense" -- there's less social hierarchy, it's less materialistic, people dress more casually, there's a lot more working at home. As for COL, it's important to note that to save money in rent, you have to deal with a long Muni commute or go into mediocre parts of Oakland that have crummy BART access, whereas in New York you can just head out an extra stop or two on an express line & suddenly be at Chicago/Philly levels of affordability. But most junior associates in New York don't do that anyway.

[Tangerine Gleam]

tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.

OP here. This is mostly true. Folks at MoFo SF bill a ton, as do those at Kirkland SF. Most of the other firms in the city do, though, have requirements between 1850 and 2000. Average at my firm's SF office last year, including pro bono hours, was around 2050.

This all sounds right for what I've learned about Bay firms. These hours are far from the 8:30-5:30 idea the earlier poster had. I think it's just that a lot of people don't realize how intense billing ("just") 2000 hours can be.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on Sheppard Mullin?

[Rotor]

tcr. I don't buy that MoFo SF is billing 1800 while MoFO NYC is billing 2300.

OP here. This is mostly true. Folks at MoFo SF bill a ton, as do those at Kirkland SF. Most of the other firms in the city do, though, have requirements between 1850 and 2000. Average at my firm's SF office last year, including pro bono hours, was around 2050.

This all sounds right for what I've learned about Bay firms. These hours are far from the 8:30-5:30 idea the earlier poster had. I think it's just that a lot of people don't realize how intense billing ("just") 2000 hours can be.

But TG: 40 hours per week x 50 weeks a year=2000 hours (and a 2-week vacation!). How hard can it be?

(/sarcasm)

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know anything about McDermott (SV)? NALP says it only take 1 SA last summer, which is really small. Think it will still be 1SA next summer?

[Anonymous User]

mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).

Sorry, can't let this idea hang out there without being addressed (addressed again, I see). All the lawyers I know in SF are making tremendous sacrifices. Quinn people billing north of 2400, MoFoers doing the same, have heard same stories from Bingham, Morgan Lewis; even midlaw like Farella. Let's not kid ourselves, guys, the hours are as bad as anywhere, but at least we're in the bay area.

[Emma.]

mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).

Sorry, can't let this idea hang out there without being addressed (addressed again, I see). All the lawyers I know in SF are making tremendous sacrifices. Quinn people billing north of 2400, MoFoers doing the same, have heard same stories from Bingham, Morgan Lewis; even midlaw like Farella. Let's not kid ourselves, guys, the hours are as bad as anywhere, but at least we're in the bay area.

Srsly. Anyone who thinks they'll be working 8-5 at a big firm just because they will be in the Bay Area is dreaming.

[Anonymous User]

mm yea on closer inspection that may be true. I was looking at "consumer prices including rent"

Even if costs are 2% or 3% higher in SF, but you're working 8:30-5:30 instead of till 9 or 10 like in NYC, you're still coming out way ahead (his main point was that it's not a better deal due to higher COL in SF).

Sorry, can't let this idea hang out there without being addressed (addressed again, I see). All the lawyers I know in SF are making tremendous sacrifices. Quinn people billing north of 2400, MoFoers doing the same, have heard same stories from Bingham, Morgan Lewis; even midlaw like Farella. Let's not kid ourselves, guys, the hours are as bad as anywhere, but at least we're in the bay area.

Srsly. Anyone who thinks they'll be working 8-5 at a big firm just because they will be in the Bay Area is dreaming.

that being said, there IS a BIG difference between california-style and NYC-style biglaw. NYC just has this culture of working really hard, really late, and being at the office all the time. thats not the case in california. people have families and other commitments outside of work. most california biglaw offices ARE empty at 8, while in NYC, they're often full. I think california biglaw bros prob work 100-200 hours less on average, and also come in earlier, leave later, and work more at home. there is a difference.

[Anonymous User]

There are a lot of misconceptions about working in the Bay Area. Having worked in D.C. and S.F., I can say things are maybe a little bit less intense but hours can be brutal especially if there is a deal going on. I know partners that have pulled consecutive all nighters in the days leading up to an IPO. And I remember a lot of the lit people being there around 8:00 am and they were STILL there when I left at 8pm. There were always lit people working on a SUNDAY as well. And this wasn't Mofo or Kirkland either.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know anything about McDermott (SV)? NALP says it only take 1 SA last summer, which is really small. Think it will still be 1SA next summer?

shameless bump

[Rotor]

Does anyone know anything about McDermott (SV)? NALP says it only take 1 SA last summer, which is really small. Think it will still be 1SA next summer?

shameless bump

If it is that small an office and they only have one SA, the lack of action on your question is likely because noone knows.

However, the recruiting department is there to answer questions for you. If you do it right, you can make the call, introduce yourself, demonstrate your strong interest in the office and put your name on their radar in a positive way.

[Anonymous User]

Thoughts on thank you letters for callbacks at SV offices? General advice is that they can only hurt, but that seems to be for NYC. Worried about being too generic since I can barely remember what we talked about.