180.75 @ Chicago Law

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:41 pm

My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.

I assume you didn't do the writing competition then? What are your personal ties to DC or to NY? Live/grow up there or UG there? Obviously LR isn't everything and acts more as a signal, but it's still somewhat important.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.


It's unlikely to impact your job search. WLRK doesn't care about LR, and while a few DC firms that might (Covington?) there are plenty who won't.

Are you thinking of turning down LR or did you not do the writing competition? If you're in the position to reconsider, I recommend reconsidering. I personally don't think LR is worth very much, except when you're near the top of the class as you are. From what I can see, not being on LR will really take you out of the running for feeder clerkships and the D.C. Circuit, which I'd imagine you have a shot at otherwise if your grads keep up.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.

I haven't heard of anyone else from Chicago who had the grades but didn't do law review.

You certainly need a persuasive explanation for why you didn't do law review—one that doesn't sound like you're lazy or were unable to put forth a good faith effort. I'm sure people will ask. If you say something like, "I wanted to spend more time with family," or "I wasn't interested in the work," or "I don't like cite checking," that also reflects poorly on your ability to be an associate.

And I echo the above poster: Don't turn it down. It's worth it. Perhaps you'll decide you want to clerk or teach or be an AUSA, and having law review helps.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:00 pm

OP: bid on the high end. You're bound to land a top tier job.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:08 pm

Emma. wrote:I don't think LRev ended up deciding to take on any extra staffers.

That's too bad. The previous law review board increased the size of board—by creating three new positions—because they expected this board to increase the number of staffers.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.


Why would you not do LR? Sure, it's a lot of work, but I picked up useful skills from my time on there and also used it as a very effective networking tool. I thought that the benefits greatly outweighed the costs.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.

I assume you didn't do the writing competition then? What are your personal ties to DC or to NY? Live/grow up there or UG there? Obviously LR isn't everything and acts more as a signal, but it's still somewhat important.

Anonymous with the question about LR from above. I am from NY, but do not have significant ties to DC. I completed the competition, but badly. I was mainly wondering what the impact was of missing the cut. I'll accept if I'm given the opportunity. Thanks to everyone who responded.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks for the information/advice. Chicago is still a top priority. but now looking at the Vault rankings and seeing that I have a good chance at some of the top NYC firms, I'm developing an interest in prestige whoring. I'll look at those firms you suggested, thanks.

And a relief on the undergrad. Do you think I should just take my honors thesis off my resume? I'd rather they not try and read it (I got an A on it but it is crap compared to the student I have become). Although if they search my name online they will easily find it.

It isn't a big deal either way. I had a paper on my resume—which was available online—and I don't think anyone actually read it. But people asked me about it. And frankly, Vault rankings are a terrible measure of prestige—unless you want to do corporate work in New York. At the end of the day, no one would think you're more prestigious for working at Skadden or S&C in New York than if you worked at Sidley or Kirkland in Chicago.

If you want a better measure of non-boutique prestige, see (I know, it isn't perfect): http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/ran ... gYear=2012. But prestige alone is a very silly way to make a career decision.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous with the question about LR from above. I am from NY, but do not have significant ties to DC. I completed the competition, but badly. I was mainly wondering what the impact was of missing the cut. I'll accept if I'm given the opportunity. Thanks to everyone who responded.

How badly? Did you turn in a TA that is readable, free from glaring spelling errors, has a few citations to cases, and discusses the issue? Did you turn in a cite checking document that found a few dozen errors? If so, your effort is almost certainly good faith. You're probably over thinking it.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous with the question about LR from above. I am from NY, but do not have significant ties to DC. I completed the competition, but badly. I was mainly wondering what the impact was of missing the cut. I'll accept if I'm given the opportunity. Thanks to everyone who responded.

How badly? Did you turn in a TA that is readable, free from glaring spelling errors, has a few citations to cases, and discusses the issue? Did you turn in a cite checking document that found a few dozen errors? If so, your effort is almost certainly good faith. You're probably over thinking it.


Agreed. The good-faith bar is ridiculously low.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Haymarket » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:33 pm

This page of anonymous postings does not inspire confidence in the credibility of any of this.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby 2013applicant » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:38 pm

Not to derail this thread, but I figured the viewing demographic might be able to answer this question:

Any information on what the gpa/LSAT/intangibles profile for the typical Rubenstein recipient was this year?

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Haymarket » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:39 pm

2013applicant wrote:Not to derail this thread, but I figured the viewing demographic might be able to answer this question:

Any information on what the gpa/LSAT/intangibles profile for the typical Rubenstein recipient was this year?

This is absolutely not the thread to be asking this question. Try somewhere else like UChi Taking Questions.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby 2013applicant » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:41 pm

Haymarket wrote:
2013applicant wrote:Not to derail this thread, but I figured the viewing demographic might be able to answer this question:

Any information on what the gpa/LSAT/intangibles profile for the typical Rubenstein recipient was this year?

This is absolutely not the thread to be asking this question. Try somewhere else like UChi Taking Questions.


Will do.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.


With grades this strong, I don't think it would be a huge issue if you didn't do LR, especially if you want to do corporate work. The only place I can really foresee this being an issue would be with high-end litigation shops where they are expecting you to do a clerkship. While I agree with other posters who said that your effort will almost certainly be considered good faith, I'm not sure that LR is worth it. It is a pretty miserable experience.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My average is above a 181. Does anyone know what kind of impact not being on LR will have on my job search? I know that I might be viewed as lazy, but does anyone have experience with this situation? I'm mainly interested in NY & DC. Thank you.


With grades this strong, I don't think it would be a huge issue if you didn't do LR, especially if you want to do corporate work. The only place I can really foresee this being an issue would be with high-end litigation shops where they are expecting you to do a clerkship. While I agree with other posters who said that your effort will almost certainly be considered good faith, I'm not sure that LR is worth it. It is a pretty miserable experience.


Just follow in Ashley Keller's footsteps.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just follow in Ashley Keller's footsteps.

Haha. Just graduate with highest honors and get a joint MBA—a legitimate excuse for turning down law review. nbd

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just follow in Ashley Keller's footsteps.

Haha. Just graduate with highest honors and get a joint MBA—a legitimate excuse for turning down law review. nbd


Guys at my high school used to turn down LR, graduate #1 in both classes, and clerk for SCOTUS all the time. It was nbd.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP sounds like he/she won't have any issue getting Chicago. Unless they're socially retarded, they should get at least one offer from one of the big class firms - K&E, Sidley, Jenner, Katten, MayerBrown, etc.

My grades are a bit lower than OP's - 179.3ish (still waiting on elective grade, but shouldn't drop below 179 unless I bomb it). Is that high enough to be a lock on Chicago or do I need to bid NYC to guarantee a job (and I have absolutely no desire to live in NYC)?

I had roughly that GPA and I didn't get an offer from any of those firms (but I did withdraw before a couple of decisions because I got the firm I wanted).

Mayer Brown seemed to screw up last year and tried to take only LR but then no one accepted their offer so they went back and posted on Symplicity and picked up people who didn't get an offer through OCI. It seems more likely they will target ~179s this time.

Also, all indications are that the classes will be bigger this year. But that being said, I wouldn't bank on an offer from those firms.

Protip: I'd contact 3Ls currently summering at firms you want to work at. Don't be shy. You want to be able to name-drop in interviews. It shows firm interest.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:47 pm

Is there any evidence that median GPA is 177? This doesn't follow from the fact that the median grade in each class is 177. Do we know if classes are graded on a symmetrical curve?

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Haymarket » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is there any evidence that median GPA is 177? This doesn't follow from the fact that the median grade in each class is 177. Do we know if classes are graded on a symmetrical curve?


Do you know what "median" means?

EDIT: Damn, didn't quote WSS in time. Anyway, a more specific point is that it's pretty obvious that setting out a curve of averages isn't going to yield the same median unless every curve is distributed the exact same way, and even then it will only happen with a large enough sample size. So, yes, it is possible that great than 50% are above median (or below), but the best approximation is still 177 as the median for each class (except LRW).
Last edited by Haymarket on Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby A-Cow-Demia » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:31 pm

I posted this last year in a different thread:
A-Cow-Demia wrote:Take a class of five students with the following grades: 173, 176, 177, 179, 185. The median is 177 and there is both one A and one C. This meets the requirements, but the average in this class is 178.

If all classes in the entire school have similar distributions, the median GPA could be above 177. The point is if the average in each class is above 177, the median GPA (or the median student's average) will also be above 177.

This is likely because professors tend to give out slightly more A's than C's, and they're more likely to give out high A's than low C's. And LRW is curved at 178.

But I agree that employers will assume a 177 is median. Plus, your GPA doesn't appear on your transcript (until after graduation), and I bet many firms don't actually run the numbers.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:18 pm

Haymarket wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is there any evidence that median GPA is 177? This doesn't follow from the fact that the median grade in each class is 177. Do we know if classes are graded on a symmetrical curve?


Do you know what "median" means?

EDIT: Damn, didn't quote WSS in time. Anyway, a more specific point is that it's pretty obvious that setting out a curve of averages isn't going to yield the same median unless every curve is distributed the exact same way, and even then it will only happen with a large enough sample size. So, yes, it is possible that great than 50% are above median (or below), but the best approximation is still 177 as the median for each class (except LRW).


"Do you know what median means" says the person who thinks more than 50% can be above median. Ha

My only point is that median GPA is likely to be higher than 177. If I had to guess, I'd guess it's higher than 178.

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Re: 180.75 @ Chicago Law

Postby Haymarket » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Haymarket wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is there any evidence that median GPA is 177? This doesn't follow from the fact that the median grade in each class is 177. Do we know if classes are graded on a symmetrical curve?


Do you know what "median" means?

EDIT: Damn, didn't quote WSS in time. Anyway, a more specific point is that it's pretty obvious that setting out a curve of averages isn't going to yield the same median unless every curve is distributed the exact same way, and even then it will only happen with a large enough sample size. So, yes, it is possible that great than 50% are above median (or below), but the best approximation is still 177 as the median for each class (except LRW).


"Do you know what median means" says the person who thinks more than 50% can be above median. Ha

My only point is that median GPA is likely to be higher than 177. If I had to guess, I'd guess it's higher than 178.

Do you realize that you literally just agreed with what I was saying? I was just trying to engage the accepted idea that yes, 50% of the class (with their GPAs) is likely above median (of 177). Jesus.




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