Best Place To Work $$ Wise

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Perseus_I
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby Perseus_I » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:57 am

wiseowl wrote:Any TX firm paying NY market is the right answer. No state income tax and low cost of living.


The price of a car is a huge drainer that most people don't account for. If you compare living in TX with a car to living in NYC without one, I'm not sure how the numbers would break down. If you're ok living on the 21st floor along with other childless young professionals, COL in NYC might not be that different from COL in TX. I'm not sure.

It's not just gas. It's maintenance. Tuneups. Oil changes. Catalytic converters. And I just hit a curb and found out my insurance doesn't cover the dent.

Yeah. I'll take NYC.

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StrictlyBusiness
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby StrictlyBusiness » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:07 am

Perseus_I wrote:
wiseowl wrote:Any TX firm paying NY market is the right answer. No state income tax and low cost of living.


The price of a car is a huge drainer that most people don't account for. If you compare living in TX with a car to living in NYC without one, I'm not sure how the numbers would break down. If you're ok living on the 21st floor along with other childless young professionals, COL in NYC might not be that different from COL in TX. I'm not sure.

It's not just gas. It's maintenance. Tuneups. Oil changes. Catalytic converters. And I just hit a curb and found out my insurance doesn't cover the dent.

Yeah. I'll take NYC.


Sounds like you're not familiar with the leasing option. You can have yourself a nice Benz and all that fun maintenance stuff taken care of for less than $20k/yr.

Perhaps native NYers still wouldn't want to mess with a car, but for those of us who don't run into curbs, it is the superior option.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:13 am

Roughly,

Dallas/Houston > Chicago/Wilmington > most secondary markets > LA/DC > SF > NYC

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fatduck
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby fatduck » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:15 am

StrictlyBusiness wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:
wiseowl wrote:Any TX firm paying NY market is the right answer. No state income tax and low cost of living.


The price of a car is a huge drainer that most people don't account for. If you compare living in TX with a car to living in NYC without one, I'm not sure how the numbers would break down. If you're ok living on the 21st floor along with other childless young professionals, COL in NYC might not be that different from COL in TX. I'm not sure.

It's not just gas. It's maintenance. Tuneups. Oil changes. Catalytic converters. And I just hit a curb and found out my insurance doesn't cover the dent.

Yeah. I'll take NYC.


Sounds like you're not familiar with the leasing option. You can have yourself a nice Benz and all that fun maintenance stuff taken care of for less than $20k/yr.

Perhaps native NYers still wouldn't want to mess with a car, but for those of us who don't run into curbs, it is the superior option.

you know that everything's bigger in texas, right? your mailbox is gonna be 5 miles away from your garage. good luck keeping it under 15k miles/yr.

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paratactical
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby paratactical » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:19 am

Perseus_I wrote: If you're ok living on the 21st floor along with other childless young professionals, COL in NYC might not be that different from COL in TX. I'm not sure.


This is hilarious. You let us know how that works out for you.

HeavenWood
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:05 am

NYC is really the worst as far as primary/larger secondaries go. You go to NYC for the caliber of work/general experience, not because the large midtown studio you can afford after taxes/loan payments makes for a "great value."

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StrictlyBusiness
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby StrictlyBusiness » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:24 pm

fatduck wrote:you know that everything's bigger in texas, right? your mailbox is gonna be 5 miles away from your garage. good luck keeping it under 15k miles/yr.


Excellent point. I also realized the error of my ways suggesting a Mercedes in Texas, so I priced out the biggest Chevy Truck I could find with all the options. Under $1,200/mo with a tiny down payment. Give me that extra $800 for gas and mileage I spend towing around large herds of cattle and we're right at $2k/mo. Boom, TX>NY.

--LinkRemoved--

HeavenWood
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:30 pm

StrictlyBusiness wrote:
fatduck wrote:you know that everything's bigger in texas, right? your mailbox is gonna be 5 miles away from your garage. good luck keeping it under 15k miles/yr.


Excellent point. I also realized the error of my ways suggesting a Mercedes in Texas, so I priced out the biggest Chevy Truck I could find with all the options. Under $1,200/mo with a tiny down payment. Give me that extra $800 for gas and mileage I spend towing around large herds of cattle and we're right at $2k/mo. Boom, TX>NY.

--LinkRemoved--

Breaking news: Even with gas-guzzling automobile, Texas cheaper than NYC

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Perseus_I
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby Perseus_I » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:48 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
fatduck wrote:you know that everything's bigger in texas, right? your mailbox is gonna be 5 miles away from your garage. good luck keeping it under 15k miles/yr.


Excellent point. I also realized the error of my ways suggesting a Mercedes in Texas, so I priced out the biggest Chevy Truck I could find with all the options. Under $1,200/mo with a tiny down payment. Give me that extra $800 for gas and mileage I spend towing around large herds of cattle and we're right at $2k/mo. Boom, TX>NY.

--LinkRemoved--

Breaking news: Even with gas-guzzling automobile, Texas cheaper than NYC


You forgot insurance and maintenance. Also, if you live in certain parts of Texas, count tickets. More like $2,500/month. That's at least $30,000 you spend in TX that you wouldn't spend in NYC - subway costs. Also, in TX, you have to buy a McMansion to satisfy people's expectations of social status. Count the energy bill on top of that. TX may not have an income tax, but TX has rather high sales and property taxes (as does NYC) - at any rate, it's not like you pay nothing in taxes.

In NYC, everyone knows it's crowded. Buy a condo with a nice view for the same price as a McMansion in a Houston suburb. It's better to buy, not rent, anyway. Some condos are really surprisingly cheap, given the ridiculously high prevailing rent.

I'm not saying that it really costs less to live in NYC than it does to live in TX. It might well still cost a lot more to live in NYC--even including factors these simplistic COL calculators don't account for. However, the common methods of comparing COL compare apples to oranges, as I've explained.

None of this, however, accounts for quality of life. This could favor either TX or New York, depending on the person. That's what it should come down to in the end.
Last edited by Perseus_I on Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby fatduck » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:51 pm

Perseus_I wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
fatduck wrote:you know that everything's bigger in texas, right? your mailbox is gonna be 5 miles away from your garage. good luck keeping it under 15k miles/yr.


Excellent point. I also realized the error of my ways suggesting a Mercedes in Texas, so I priced out the biggest Chevy Truck I could find with all the options. Under $1,200/mo with a tiny down payment. Give me that extra $800 for gas and mileage I spend towing around large herds of cattle and we're right at $2k/mo. Boom, TX>NY.

--LinkRemoved--

Breaking news: Even with gas-guzzling automobile, Texas cheaper than NYC


You forgot insurance and maintenance. Also, if you live in certain parts of Texas, count tickets. More like $2,500/month. That's at least $30,000 you spend in TX that you wouldn't spend in NYC - subway costs. Also, in TX, you have to buy a McMansion to satisfy people's expectations of social status. Count the energy bill on top of that.

In NYC, everyone knows it's crowded. Buy a condo with a nice view for the same price as a McMansion in a Houston suburb. It's better to buy, not rent, anyway. Some condos are really surprisingly cheap, given the ridiculously high prevailing rent.

I'm not saying that it really costs less to live in NYC than it does to live in TX. It might well still cost a lot more to live in NYC in ways these simplistic COL calculators don't account for. However, I think there are a lot of factors people don't account for when they state a comparison as fact.

None of this, however, accounts for quality of life. This could favor either TX or New York, depending on the person. That's what it should come down to in the end.

of course in nyc you have to account for being robbed. maybe you don't carry much cash on your person but you'll lose your cell phone and time spent cancelling credit cards about once a month, so that's another $5,000 or so for NYC COL. in texas you just need a shotgun, which can be had for well under a grand.

clarita
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby clarita » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:55 pm

On July 10 there will be a virtual networking event on http://www.SPAM.com to connect law students with recent graduates and established lawyers. You can speak to them privately by phone or via video conference.

It's really a unique opportunity to learn some tips about salaries and opportunities for career progression for lawyers.

EDITED FOR SPAM

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StrictlyBusiness
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby StrictlyBusiness » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:56 pm

Don't forget the personal value you put on 44 oz. beverages. For me that's at least $5k.

I think we all agree on the general point that there are some costs that you have to deal with because you choose not to live in Manhattan, but they don't come anywhere close to making it even.

HeavenWood
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:57 pm

Perseus_I wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
StrictlyBusiness wrote:
fatduck wrote:you know that everything's bigger in texas, right? your mailbox is gonna be 5 miles away from your garage. good luck keeping it under 15k miles/yr.


Excellent point. I also realized the error of my ways suggesting a Mercedes in Texas, so I priced out the biggest Chevy Truck I could find with all the options. Under $1,200/mo with a tiny down payment. Give me that extra $800 for gas and mileage I spend towing around large herds of cattle and we're right at $2k/mo. Boom, TX>NY.

--LinkRemoved--

Breaking news: Even with gas-guzzling automobile, Texas cheaper than NYC


You forgot insurance and maintenance. Also, if you live in certain parts of Texas, count tickets. More like $2,500/month. That's at least $30,000 you spend in TX that you wouldn't spend in NYC - subway costs. Also, in TX, you have to buy a McMansion to satisfy people's expectations of social status. Count the energy bill on top of that. TX may not have an income tax, but TX has rather high sales and property taxes (as does NYC) - at any rate, it's not like you pay nothing in taxes.

In NYC, everyone knows it's crowded. Buy a condo with a nice view for the same price as a McMansion in a Houston suburb. It's better to buy, not rent, anyway. Some condos are really surprisingly cheap, given the ridiculously high prevailing rent.

I'm not saying that it really costs less to live in NYC than it does to live in TX. It might well still cost a lot more to live in NYC--even including factors these simplistic COL calculators don't account for. However, the common methods of comparing COL compare apples to oranges, as I've explained.

None of this, however, accounts for quality of life. This could favor either TX or New York, depending on the person. That's what it should come down to in the end.

It's good you're not saying NYC is cheaper than Texas. Otherwise, I'd have to call you out for being a fucking moron, though you're huffing paint if you think buying a Manhattan condo would be anywhere even remotely cheaper than a suburban Dallas or Houston McMansion. Your typical tacky tract housing will cost around $400k. You're lucky if you can get a 2-bedroom condo in Inwood for that price.
Last edited by HeavenWood on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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brose
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby brose » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:01 pm

What is this car analysis, I don't even.

You don't have to drive a Benz to do big law in Texas, or a chevy truck, either. I don't see where you're getting $2,500 a month from, but then again I've paid off my car and will be using it while saving my money. Also, re: tickets - firms pay for parking down here, so you won't have to account for those. Lawd.

The NY v. TX debate really just comes down to where you prefer to be - the people who prefer to NY will generally give up the low COL here for the "higher" QOL in NYC.

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sunynp
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby sunynp » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:04 pm

It's good you're not saying NYC is cheaper than Texas. Otherwise, I'd have to call you out for being a fucking moron,


If you won't I will. You are a fucking moron.

You have obviously no clue what it costs to live in New York .

Btw: there are almost no condos...it is co-ops and good luck getting by the board with a starting associates job and income.

HeavenWood
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:10 pm

sunynp wrote:
It's good you're not saying NYC is cheaper than Texas. Otherwise, I'd have to call you out for being a fucking moron,


If you won't I will. You are a fucking moron.

You have obviously no clue what it costs to live in New York .

Btw: there are almost no condos...it is co-ops and good luck getting by the board with a starting associates job and income.

We've probably been successfully trolled. No one can possibly be that pedantically stupid.

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StrictlyBusiness
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby StrictlyBusiness » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:11 pm

brose wrote:What is this car analysis, I don't even.

You don't have to drive a Benz to do big law in Texas, or a chevy truck, either. I don't see where you're getting $2,500 a month from, but then again I've paid off my car and will be using it while saving my money. Also, re: tickets - firms pay for parking down here, so you won't have to account for those. Lawd.

The NY v. TX debate really just comes down to where you prefer to be - the people who prefer to NY will generally give up the low COL here for the "higher" QOL in NYC.


Hopefully you saw the ridiculous exaggerations from my side as simply showing that you could go way over the top in Texas and it'd be nowhere near NY.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:29 pm

I drive a respectable car in a secondary city kind of like Dallas/Houston, for a total (including insurance and gas) of about $500/month. And I can rent an apartment in my city, within a mile of where I work, for $1000/month that would be $4000/month in Midtown Manhattan. And I make about the same after taxes as I would in NYC - roughly $8000/month.

I don't understand why this is even a debate. You don't go to NYC for the money - it's the worst place for that.

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Perseus_I
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby Perseus_I » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:42 pm

RVP11 wrote:I drive a respectable car in a secondary city kind of like Dallas/Houston, for a total (including insurance and gas) of about $500/month. And I can rent an apartment in my city, within a mile of where I work, for $1000/month that would be $4000/month in Midtown Manhattan. And I make about the same after taxes as I would in NYC - roughly $8000/month.

I don't understand why this is even a debate. You don't go to NYC for the money - it's the worst place for that.


When I lived in NYC, I lived in a cheap apartment in Queens ($1000/month) and did not make enough to pay much in taxes. THAT might really up the cost of living. I have honestly never made anywhere close to $160,000/year, so I may not be accounting for taxes. But based on personal experience, NYC and Texas were about the same. I didn't have a car or insurance, and my nonprofit paid for my subway/bus transportation.

Like I said, it depends. Making comparisons between costs of living between Texas and NYC is difficult because the lifestyle in TX and NYC are so different. A better comparison would be between NYC and Chicago - Chicago wins hands down.

HeavenWood
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:46 pm

Perseus_I wrote:
RVP11 wrote:I drive a respectable car in a secondary city kind of like Dallas/Houston, for a total (including insurance and gas) of about $500/month. And I can rent an apartment in my city, within a mile of where I work, for $1000/month that would be $4000/month in Midtown Manhattan. And I make about the same after taxes as I would in NYC - roughly $8000/month.

I don't understand why this is even a debate. You don't go to NYC for the money - it's the worst place for that.


When I lived in NYC, I lived in a cheap apartment in Queens ($1000/month) and did not make enough to pay much in taxes. THAT might really up the cost of living. I have honestly never made anywhere close to $160,000/year, so I may not be accounting for taxes. But based on personal experience, NYC and Texas were about the same. I didn't have a car or insurance, and my nonprofit paid for my subway/bus transportation.

Like I said, it depends. Making comparisons between costs of living between Texas and NYC is difficult because the lifestyle in TX and NYC are so different. A better comparison would be between NYC and Chicago - Chicago wins hands down.

Taxes and rent/property values in NYC are killer for the most part. Of course living in Queens is going to be relatively inexpensive, but the equivalent of Queens is not downtown Dallas or an affluent first-ring suburb, but a more run-down urban neighborhood where your rent would be slashed in half.

Huey Freeman
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby Huey Freeman » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:52 pm

OP here...

Wow, haha. I gather that the most definitive response is to not go to NYC in terms of saving money. Texas arguments are interesting - even with all the extra fuff of a fancy house and cars, you seem to come out ahead in Texas, which just goes to show how much lower COL is there. I think an earlier poster got it right - Texas firms paying NYC medians are the place to be for the most saved income.

For IP law, is there really a significant advantage to being in Silicon Valley? The COL is fairly high there too, but is that mitigated by the fact that it is a hotspot for IP? Generally speaking, what are the big advantages in choosing a more expensive but more reknowned location to practice in? Arguably higher QOL? Prestige?

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RVP11
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Perseus_I wrote:When I lived in NYC, I lived in a cheap apartment in Queens ($1000/month) and did not make enough to pay much in taxes. THAT might really up the cost of living. I have honestly never made anywhere close to $160,000/year, so I may not be accounting for taxes.


You have to account for taxes. That $160k in NYC gets turned into about $95k after taxes. Meanwhile, $125k in a city like St. Louis gets turned into about the same. People on TLS spend a lot of time comparing $160k in New York to $125k in a secondary market, when the correct comparison is $95k in New York to $95k in a secondary market.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:54 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:When I lived in NYC, I lived in a cheap apartment in Queens ($1000/month) and did not make enough to pay much in taxes. THAT might really up the cost of living. I have honestly never made anywhere close to $160,000/year, so I may not be accounting for taxes.


You have to account for taxes. That $160k in NYC gets turned into about $95k after taxes. Meanwhile, $125k in a city like St. Louis gets turned into about the same. People on TLS spend a lot of time comparing $160k in New York to $125k in a secondary market, when the correct comparison is $95k in New York to $95k in a secondary market.


The top tax rate in Missouri is 6%. In New York state it's 6.85%. New York city taxes don't eat up an additional 35K.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby RVP11 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:05 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Perseus_I wrote:When I lived in NYC, I lived in a cheap apartment in Queens ($1000/month) and did not make enough to pay much in taxes. THAT might really up the cost of living. I have honestly never made anywhere close to $160,000/year, so I may not be accounting for taxes.


You have to account for taxes. That $160k in NYC gets turned into about $95k after taxes. Meanwhile, $125k in a city like St. Louis gets turned into about the same. People on TLS spend a lot of time comparing $160k in New York to $125k in a secondary market, when the correct comparison is $95k in New York to $95k in a secondary market.


The top tax rate in Missouri is 6%. In New York state it's 6.85%. New York city taxes don't eat up an additional 35K.


You have to consider federal and city tax, as well. Post-tax income in NYC on $160k is about $95k.

I wasn't using St. Louis because I know anything about Missouri. I was using it as a random secondary city where I think market is around $125k.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Best Place To Work $$ Wise

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:14 pm

RVP11 wrote:You have to consider federal and city tax, as well. Post-tax income in NYC on $160k is about $95k.

I wasn't using St. Louis because I know anything about Missouri. I was using it as a random secondary city where I think market is around $125k.


Right but the federal taxes will take roughly the same percentage everywhere. I agree that NYC isn't the best place to be if you want to max out purchasing power but even after taxes you'll have more disposable income there than in most secondary markets. You'll just dispose of it far more quickly.

Nothing beats the 160K in Texas though.




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