Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

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Lord Randolph McDuff
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Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:22 pm

I go to an average school and have a 3.55 after my 1L year. Just met with my career service person and she starting talking about how more students should apply to DOJ honors and USAO stuff strait out of (our) law school. She encouraged me to consider applying for a USAO for 2L summer and the DOJ honors dealio for 3L and beyond. Is she fucking high? The part of me that wants to be employed when I leave here hopes you say no. Its just I'd assumed DOJ honors and US attorney's office strait out of LS was super competitive. I went in there talking about county attorneys office's--state court clerkship-- DA office and she went right to the DOJ. Should I listen to this person?

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rayiner
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:29 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I go to an average school and have a 3.55 after my 1L year. Just met with my career service person and she starting talking about how more students should apply to DOJ honors and USAO stuff strait out of (our) law school. She encouraged me to consider applying for a USAO for 2L summer and the DOJ honors dealio for 3L and beyond. Is she fucking high? The part of me that wants to be employed when I leave here hopes you say no. Its just I'd assumed DOJ honors and US attorney's office strait out of LS was super competitive. I went in there talking about county attorneys office's--state court clerkship-- DA office and she went right to the DOJ. Should I listen to this person?


She's full of shit. Nobody gets DOJ Honors.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:41 pm

This person should be fired, IMO. DOJ Honors is getting to be harder to get than a COA clerkship (which is now practically a prerequisite for DOJ Honors). While it's possible to get an AUSA gig through DOJ Honors, those people usually have insane qualifications. I think the D.C. USAO is the easiest for young lawyers to get, but most offices will expect a federal clerkship + trial experience.

My COA co-clerk went to YHS, was on the ed board of the law review, won the school's moot court competition, and worked at main justice for a summer, yet still got shut out when applying for DOJ Honors. A friend of mine had similarly glittering qualifications, got DOJ Honors, and will be clerking for SCOTUS next term. These are the kinds of people you will be competing with.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:These are the kinds of people you will be competing with.


I choose not to compete with them.

MrAnon
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby MrAnon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:52 pm

She's under pressure to get jobs for people. She's familiar with biglaw to know its out of question for most people, hoping this will work instead.

abc12345675
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby abc12345675 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:54 pm

From my experience CSO is utterly useless. Should just get rid of it and pass the $500,000 a year tied up in that office on to the students in form of lower tuition.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:05 pm

I went to a second tier school and, through the grace of god, landed a flyover AIII clerkship I didn't deserve. My CSO sent me info on Bristow and SCOTUS hiring. I almost fell out of my chair.

Also, while your CSO is probably high, immigration-related DOJ positions are much easier to get than the nonimmigration ones. Maybe she's thinking about that. I had top grades from my school, law review editor, did moot court, and didn't get an offer from a competitive component. A girl at my school who didn't have honors/journal/moot court landed an immigration gig through the honors program.

Finally, while I give you a .00000001% chance of landing a nonimmigration component, I don't see harm in wasting 2-3 hours and applying to the DOJ. I would have given myself about the same odds of landing my clerkship.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I went to a second tier school and, through the grace of god, landed a flyover AIII clerkship I didn't deserve. My CSO sent me info on Bristow and SCOTUS hiring. I almost fell out of my chair.

Also, while your CSO is probably high, immigration-related DOJ positions are much easier to get than the nonimmigration ones. Maybe she's thinking about that. I had top grades from my school, law review editor, did moot court, and didn't get an offer from a competitive component. A girl at my school who didn't have honors/journal/moot court landed an immigration gig through the honors program.

Finally, while I give you a .00000001% chance of landing a nonimmigration component, I don't see harm in wasting 2-3 hours and applying to the DOJ. I would have given myself about the same odds of landing my clerkship.


I will look into the immigration thing, couldn't hurt. I do hablo some espanol, if you catch my drift. What is shitty is that I am already aiming high for what is the reality of this legal market-- going for DA/JAG. Instead of doing her job and pushing me towards PD offices, state court clerkships up in the mountains, or creative non-law jobs she told me to apply to the DOJ. I'm going to have to agree with whoever said she should be fired.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:24 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I went to a second tier school and, through the grace of god, landed a flyover AIII clerkship I didn't deserve. My CSO sent me info on Bristow and SCOTUS hiring. I almost fell out of my chair.

Also, while your CSO is probably high, immigration-related DOJ positions are much easier to get than the nonimmigration ones. Maybe she's thinking about that. I had top grades from my school, law review editor, did moot court, and didn't get an offer from a competitive component. A girl at my school who didn't have honors/journal/moot court landed an immigration gig through the honors program.

Finally, while I give you a .00000001% chance of landing a nonimmigration component, I don't see harm in wasting 2-3 hours and applying to the DOJ. I would have given myself about the same odds of landing my clerkship.


I will look into the immigration thing, couldn't hurt. I do hablo some espanol, if you catch my drift. What is shitty is that I am already aiming high for what is the reality of this legal market-- going for DA/JAG. Instead of doing her job and pushing me towards PD offices, state court clerkships up in the mountains, or creative non-law jobs she told me to apply to the DOJ. I'm going to have to agree with whoever said she should be fired.


The people that land that do something to show they know/care about immigration. E.g., an immigration court externship and/or clinical helping file asylum applications.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:48 am

rayiner wrote:She's full of shit. Nobody gets DOJ Honors.


This^. Admittedly, it appears DOJ Honors hiring is going to (hopefully, I guess) be a little better this year than last. But for any non-Immigration component, you have effectively 0% chance without at least a district court clerkship, and increasingly even that might not be enough.

FWIW, I was the only applicant that made it to finalist status for a certain [competitive component] DOJ slot last year who was NOT a Court of Appeals clerk. Single-digit rank, LR, t30 school, trial team board, a wheelbarrow of national awards in moot and mock, and multiple prosecuting externships. Entry-level DOJ is pretty much out of the question for 2010/2013 grads sans clerkships, if you ask me.

As far as AUSA jobs, you should slap your CSO in the face. Entry-level AUSA slots were almost nonexistent before the hiring freeze. The closest thing you have now are uncompensated (work for free!) SAUSA spots.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:54 am

rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I go to an average school and have a 3.55 after my 1L year. Just met with my career service person and she starting talking about how more students should apply to DOJ honors and USAO stuff strait out of (our) law school. She encouraged me to consider applying for a USAO for 2L summer and the DOJ honors dealio for 3L and beyond. Is she fucking high? The part of me that wants to be employed when I leave here hopes you say no. Its just I'd assumed DOJ honors and US attorney's office strait out of LS was super competitive. I went in there talking about county attorneys office's--state court clerkship-- DA office and she went right to the DOJ. Should I listen to this person?


She's full of shit. Nobody gets DOJ Honors.


I had an effing writing prof who had graduated from the T50 I was at and got DOJ honors after school (and is now AUSA), but she graduated about 10 yrs ago--things were so different. I think she was a good student, but I doubt she was even top 10% at the time (really don't know, but she even said her grades didn't land her biglaw internship at first while in school).
Last edited by Lawquacious on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:36 am

Lawquacious wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I go to an average school and have a 3.55 after my 1L year. Just met with my career service person and she starting talking about how more students should apply to DOJ honors and USAO stuff strait out of (our) law school. She encouraged me to consider applying for a USAO for 2L summer and the DOJ honors dealio for 3L and beyond. Is she fucking high? The part of me that wants to be employed when I leave here hopes you say no. Its just I'd assumed DOJ honors and US attorney's office strait out of LS was super competitive. I went in there talking about county attorneys office's--state court clerkship-- DA office and she went right to the DOJ. Should I listen to this person?


She's full of shit. Nobody gets DOJ Honors.


I had an effing writing prof (cocky as hell) who had graduated from the T50 I was at and got DOJ honors after school (then went to large TX firm, now to AUSA), but she graduated about 10 yrs ago--things were so different. God that pisses me off. I think she was a good student, but I doubt she was even top 10% at the time (really don't know, but she even said her grades didn't land her biglaw internship at first while in school).


Guy from my T2 (top 10%, secondary journal, no clerkship) landed DOJ honors non immigration. It can be done, but as other posters have pointed out the chances of success are de minimis.

Edit: school ranked 60-70.

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IAFG
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:I go to an average school and have a 3.55 after my 1L year. Just met with my career service person and she starting talking about how more students should apply to DOJ honors and USAO stuff strait out of (our) law school. She encouraged me to consider applying for a USAO for 2L summer and the DOJ honors dealio for 3L and beyond. Is she fucking high? The part of me that wants to be employed when I leave here hopes you say no. Its just I'd assumed DOJ honors and US attorney's office strait out of LS was super competitive. I went in there talking about county attorneys office's--state court clerkship-- DA office and she went right to the DOJ. Should I listen to this person?


She's full of shit. Nobody gets DOJ Honors.


I had an effing writing prof (cocky as hell) who had graduated from the T50 I was at and got DOJ honors after school (then went to large TX firm, now to AUSA), but she graduated about 10 yrs ago--things were so different. God that pisses me off. I think she was a good student, but I doubt she was even top 10% at the time (really don't know, but she even said her grades didn't land her biglaw internship at first while in school).


Guy from my T2 (top 10%, secondary journal, no clerkship) landed DOJ honors non immigration. It can be done, but as other posters have pointed out the chances of success are de minimis.

Edit: school ranked 60-70.

I think some people ITT are talking about the DOJ summer program and others are talking about full time offers.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:15 am

DOJ Honors fulltime position from a T2. I say apply, It's possible...

http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/home/kyle ... rs-program

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IAFG
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:DOJ Honors fulltime position from a T2. I say apply, It's possible...

http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/home/kyle ... rs-program

Things are even tighter now than they were for c/o 2011 when it comes to DOJ.

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rayiner
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby rayiner » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:31 am

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:DOJ Honors fulltime position from a T2. I say apply, It's possible...

http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/home/kyle ... rs-program

Things are even tighter now than they were for c/o 2011 when it comes to DOJ.


This guy also grew up in a poor part of Appalachia and has serious public service chops:
"After receiving his B.A., with honors, in political science, Smiddie spent two years completing service work with Haverford House, the Red Cross and AmeriCorps. He did community outreach for heating assistance programs in Philadelphia, helped Hurricane Katrina victims to rebuild their homes in New Orleans, and mentored foster kids in southeastern Ohio."

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:41 am

My CSO told me my resume needs to be 3 pages long, insisted that I include all my experience I have ever obtained including high school jobs that have absolutely zero relevance to anything, told me that every single activity I have ever done in law school is "an honor" and should be under the "Honors" section of the resume and then proceeded to bold 2/3rds of the resume cause it needed to "stand out". I wish I was kidding.

Moral of the story is CSO is a laughing stock at the vast majority of schools.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:52 am

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:She encouraged me to consider applying for a USAO for 2L summer and the DOJ honors dealio for 3L and beyond. Is she fucking high?

Yes, she is high. Here's last year's thread on DoJ Honors. Selected quotes:

"Haha, oh well, at least I won't waste my time now."
"I had no idea how bad this was until I interned at a federal office. . . . it's not a matter of how much you pump your resume up with PI credentials - there are literally cuts upon cuts plus the squeeze. It's a sobering and more than midlly distressing situation."
"DOJ just announced that they're freezing applications for a bit because a couple of branches are going to have to unexpectedly cut their programs."
"Civil Rights Division is not participating in Honors this year. They previously estimated hiring 12 people on the public website, but now they're not listed as a participating component at all."
"I wouldn't bet on federal hiring to pick up in the next year with more impending cuts. And a lot of people I know within the DOJ think that funding will get even more pinched than it is now. GS employees will go their second year in a row without receiving the inflation adjusted locality pay or automatic step increases. Unfortunately I think this will be one of those years where very few people are hired by the fed gov, substantially less than the already small amount."
"it looks like over half of DOJ's openings this year are for temporary positions"


Really, if someone wanted to work for the DoJ, the best thing would be gunning for biglaw and transitioning after some years.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:05 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:My CSO told me my resume needs to be 3 pages long, insisted that I include all my experience I have ever obtained including high school jobs that have absolutely zero relevance to anything, told me that every single activity I have ever done in law school is "an honor" and should be under the "Honors" section of the resume and then proceeded to bold 2/3rds of the resume cause it needed to "stand out". I wish I was kidding.

Moral of the story is CSO is a laughing stock at the vast majority of schools.

I worked for the government for quite a while before law school. Your CSO isn't really too far off on this. Federal resumes are their own animal and the normal rules don't apply as much. I've seen resumes be five or six pages (or more) through an FOIA request for a position I didn't get. The whole goal is to get more "points" than other applicants (or at least make the top five for the position). They will then pick a candidate from the top five applicants. To get points, it's all about how much experience you convince them you have. Basically, include any experience that can be stretched to even be marginally relative to the qualifications for anything in the job description.

IMO, the application process is BS and it encourages embellishment on resumes more than standard jobs do. Still, it is what it is and you have to play their games (without lying).

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:54 pm

My resumes for federal employment have never exceeded 1 page.

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El_Gallo
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby El_Gallo » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:My CSO told me my resume needs to be 3 pages long, insisted that I include all my experience I have ever obtained including high school jobs that have absolutely zero relevance to anything, told me that every single activity I have ever done in law school is "an honor" and should be under the "Honors" section of the resume and then proceeded to bold 2/3rds of the resume cause it needed to "stand out". I wish I was kidding.

Moral of the story is CSO is a laughing stock at the vast majority of schools.

I worked for the government for quite a while before law school. Your CSO isn't really too far off on this. Federal resumes are their own animal and the normal rules don't apply as much. I've seen resumes be five or six pages (or more) through an FOIA request for a position I didn't get. The whole goal is to get more "points" than other applicants (or at least make the top five for the position). They will then pick a candidate from the top five applicants. To get points, it's all about how much experience you convince them you have. Basically, include any experience that can be stretched to even be marginally relative to the qualifications for anything in the job description.

IMO, the application process is BS and it encourages embellishment on resumes more than standard jobs do. Still, it is what it is and you have to play their games (without lying).


This is news to me. Thank you.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:My CSO told me my resume needs to be 3 pages long, insisted that I include all my experience I have ever obtained including high school jobs that have absolutely zero relevance to anything, told me that every single activity I have ever done in law school is "an honor" and should be under the "Honors" section of the resume and then proceeded to bold 2/3rds of the resume cause it needed to "stand out". I wish I was kidding.

Moral of the story is CSO is a laughing stock at the vast majority of schools.

I worked for the government for quite a while before law school. Your CSO isn't really too far off on this. Federal resumes are their own animal and the normal rules don't apply as much. I've seen resumes be five or six pages (or more) through an FOIA request for a position I didn't get. The whole goal is to get more "points" than other applicants (or at least make the top five for the position). They will then pick a candidate from the top five applicants. To get points, it's all about how much experience you convince them you have. Basically, include any experience that can be stretched to even be marginally relative to the qualifications for anything in the job description.

IMO, the application process is BS and it encourages embellishment on resumes more than standard jobs do. Still, it is what it is and you have to play their games (without lying).

This week at my internship at a federal agency for the summer I overheard a couple of my bosses going through applications/the application process and it is nothing like this fucktarded points system you describe.

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:My CSO told me my resume needs to be 3 pages long, insisted that I include all my experience I have ever obtained including high school jobs that have absolutely zero relevance to anything, told me that every single activity I have ever done in law school is "an honor" and should be under the "Honors" section of the resume and then proceeded to bold 2/3rds of the resume cause it needed to "stand out". I wish I was kidding.

Moral of the story is CSO is a laughing stock at the vast majority of schools.

I worked for the government for quite a while before law school. Your CSO isn't really too far off on this. Federal resumes are their own animal and the normal rules don't apply as much. I've seen resumes be five or six pages (or more) through an FOIA request for a position I didn't get. The whole goal is to get more "points" than other applicants (or at least make the top five for the position). They will then pick a candidate from the top five applicants. To get points, it's all about how much experience you convince them you have. Basically, include any experience that can be stretched to even be marginally relative to the qualifications for anything in the job description.

IMO, the application process is BS and it encourages embellishment on resumes more than standard jobs do. Still, it is what it is and you have to play their games (without lying).

This week at my internship at a federal agency for the summer I overheard a couple of my bosses going through applications/the application process and it is nothing like this fucktarded points system you describe.

It may very well be different for the honors hiring, but this is exactly how it is for normal federal hiring.

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sundance95
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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby sundance95 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:It may very well be different for the honors hiring, but this is exactly how it is for normal federal hiring.

This. Fed Gov atty positions are exempt from the points nonsense.

Also, did I correctly understand that you FOIA'd resumes because you didn't get a fed gov job?

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Re: Bullshit advice from CSO or no?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:31 pm

sundance95 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It may very well be different for the honors hiring, but this is exactly how it is for normal federal hiring.

This. Fed Gov atty positions are exempt from the points nonsense.

Also, did I correctly understand that you FOIA'd resumes because you didn't get a fed gov job?

I FOIA'd for info on why I didn't get one specific job and they sent the resume with the name and contact info redacted. The resume wasn't what I asked for, but I was shocked at how horrible the resume was, and even more shocked at how many pages it was. It was full of generic, embellished BS and had very little real substance.

The reason I FOIA'd on that one was that I had been notified that I made the most qualified list, and I was curious what they based their decision on.




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