High debt v. even higher debt

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High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:17 pm

So Here is my situation, I just graduated from CCN, either top 10% or very nearly, but I am currently unemployed. By plan had been to do an LLM next year (in tax of course) and clerk following that. But apparently, I am not getting any scholarship money, that would cause me to have to take out another 80K in loans, on top of the 200K I already owe. Realistically, it seems I will never be able to pay off this debt, and so will be relying on IRB and public service loan forgiveness (assuming I can get a qualifying job.) Under these circumstances, does it make sense to do the LLM? Basically, my thinking is I am already so loaned up, it does not matter how much more I take since IRB is keyed off of income, not debt. But, I am concerned that the law might change in the 10 window leaving me on the hook for all this debt. But again, I am already pretty screwed on that account anyway. Any thoughts?

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:20 pm

You have to be a troll. I am sorry, but the legal market is not so bad that anyone without a serious problem cannot get a job out of CCN having placed in the top 10%. Give us a break.

MrAnon
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby MrAnon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So Here is my situation, I just graduated from CCN, either top 10% or very nearly, but I am currently unemployed. By plan had been to do an LLM next year (in tax of course) and clerk following that. But apparently, I am not getting any scholarship money, that would cause me to have to take out another 80K in loans, on top of the 200K I already owe. Realistically, it seems I will never be able to pay off this debt, and so will be relying on IRB and public service loan forgiveness (assuming I can get a qualifying job.) Under these circumstances, does it make sense to do the LLM? Basically, my thinking is I am already so loaned up, it does not matter how much more I take since IRB is keyed off of income, not debt. But, I am concerned that the law might change in the 10 window leaving me on the hook for all this debt. But again, I am already pretty screwed on that account anyway. Any thoughts?


If you cannot find a job after law school the LLM will not make your more employable. You are obviously quite adept at going to school and taking on loans, now time to do something else. Make sure you can pay them back before you can take on more.

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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:23 pm

OP here- Well, to be fair there could be something very wrong with me. But I assure you I am no troll.

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sunynp
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby sunynp » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:25 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So Here is my situation, I just graduated from CCN, either top 10% or very nearly, but I am currently unemployed. By plan had been to do an LLM next year (in tax of course) and clerk following that. But apparently, I am not getting any scholarship money, that would cause me to have to take out another 80K in loans, on top of the 200K I already owe. Realistically, it seems I will never be able to pay off this debt, and so will be relying on IRB and public service loan forgiveness (assuming I can get a qualifying job.) Under these circumstances, does it make sense to do the LLM? Basically, my thinking is I am already so loaned up, it does not matter how much more I take since IRB is keyed off of income, not debt. But, I am concerned that the law might change in the 10 window leaving me on the hook for all this debt. But again, I am already pretty screwed on that account anyway. Any thoughts?


If you cannot find a job after law school the LLM will not make your more employable. You are obviously quite adept at going to school and taking on loans, now time to do something else. Make sure you can pay them back before you can take on more.


Is this true for an LLM in tax from NYU?

The real problem with IBR is the tax kicker at the end. I don't know what to tell you to do. I like to think that there must be a job for you in New York somewhere.

Did you bid badly or get no offered from your SA?
Last edited by sunynp on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here- Well, to be fair there could be something very wrong with me. But I assure you I am no troll.


Then explain in detial how someone in the top 10% of CCN cannot get a job, when even people in the top 10% of Dozo or BLS get jobs--even BigLaw jobs?

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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:29 pm

Well, I interviewed poorly at 2L OCI, ended up working in a non-prestigious government gig 2L summer. My interviewing was better at 3L OCI, but the market was very tough for 3Ls. Got a few callbacks but no offers. The clerkship search was also a bust last year.

abc12345675
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby abc12345675 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:29 pm

You either are a convicted felon or you haven't applied to jobs.

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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby attractive_NUisance » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here- Well, to be fair there could be something very wrong with me. But I assure you I am no troll.


If you can't get a good job now, you will not get one after the LLM. If you are for real you need to look in the mirror and figure out why you might be literally the only person in the top 10% at CCN who can't get a job.

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Well, I interviewed poorly at 2L OCI, ended up working in a non-prestigious government gig 2L summer. My interviewing was better at 3L OCI, but the market was very tough for 3Ls. Got a few callbacks but no offers. The clerkship search was also a bust last year.


Well the 3L market is dried up. But tell me more about 2L OCI? Did you combine all your bids into one and place them on Cravath? Did you forget pants?

Expand a bit...

Sorry you don't have a job, but this is incredible...

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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:33 pm

Look, this all sort of beside the point, since that is in the past and I cannot change it. Also, I assure you I am not the only person with good grades from my school who is unemployed. But, this is all really beside the point, I am interested in what I should do going forward.

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sunynp
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby sunynp » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:34 pm

OP: you need to look at the employment statistics out of the LLM program. I know an NYU LLM in tax is valuable for corporate transactions.

But you are working on the bar right now, no? Maybe after you pass the bar you will get something?
How much hard mailing and trying to get interviews have you done? Do you have any contacts?

I think at the end of the day if you can't find something, maybe you should do the LLM.

abc12345675
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby abc12345675 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Look, this all sort of beside the point, since that is in the past and I cannot change it. Also, I assure you I am not the only person with good grades from my school who is unemployed. But, this is all really beside the point, I am interested in what I should do going forward.


You should contact 50 firms a day until you have a job.

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Look, this all sort of beside the point, since that is in the past and I cannot change it. Also, I assure you I am not the only person with good grades from my school who is unemployed. But, this is all really beside the point, I am interested in what I should do going forward.


How is it beside the point. You can't get a job. That probably has something to do with why you haven't gotten a job. Why is that? You should answer. Being in the top 10% of CCN is not the answer.

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sunynp
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby sunynp » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Look, this all sort of beside the point, since that is in the past and I cannot change it. Also, I assure you I am not the only person with good grades from my school who is unemployed. But, this is all really beside the point, I am interested in what I should do going forward.


Yes, I agree OP. Other people who are in your shoes have posted in this forum.
People confuse the fact that top 10% is extremely competitive with the fact that top 10% means you have a guaranteed job. The market is incredibly tough if you don't have an offer from an SA. There are just too few spots.

Do you have any reliable employment statistics for top 10% of CCN with LLM out of NYU?

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:40 pm

sunynp wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Look, this all sort of beside the point, since that is in the past and I cannot change it. Also, I assure you I am not the only person with good grades from my school who is unemployed. But, this is all really beside the point, I am interested in what I should do going forward.


Yes, I agree OP. Other people who are in your shoes have posted in this forum.
People confuse the fact that top 10% is extremely competitive with the fact that top 10% means you have a guaranteed job. The market is incredibly tough if you don't have an offer from an SA. There are just too few spots.

Do you have any reliable employment statistics for top 10% of CCN with LLM out of NYU?


To be honest, I just don't buy it: even on the 3L count. He should have gotten an SA in OCI. But now he can dip below his expectations and grab something. Being in the top 10% at CCN virtually guarantees he is a competent legal analyst of unbounded sophistication and that is the most important characteristic to virtually every legal employer on the planet.

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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:41 pm

OP - To clarify what I meant was, why I did not get a job is not particularly relvent to what I do now. I think it is highly likely that I will obtain some kind of clerkship (Art 3/Tax Court) for 2013, the real purpose of this thread was to figure out if the additional debt is worth it (since I cannot be unemployed for a year, and I am unlikely to find any sort of temporary employment for that period).

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:43 pm

I mean, if he's real, I'll give him some advice: I know people who took an ivy league education to very bad jobs, waited out the recession, and rose inexorably like a blimp as soon as employers could afford to pay them. But to sit around not doing legal work--some legal work--while contemplating living on federal loans, is early retirement. He'll have no career.

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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:44 pm

hey OP- sunk costs are sunk. NYU's tax LLM is arguably the only LLM in the country with +EV. If you get in, go. Think about it. Upside --> 160k in biglaw tax with top six figure exit options in big tax if you can grind it out that long (pay down all debt in 5-6 years). Also, tax has some of the best hours of any practice groups at a firm so you may actually have a life. Plus, you go from bottom 10% of salary in your age group to top 2% of salary in your age group. DAT PRESTIGE! Downside Option 1 --> NONE, if you got a PI jerb. IBR based on income, not debt. Plus the amount of remaining debt at the end of the 10 years is totally forgiven (i.e. non taxable income). Downside Option 2 -->you don't get a PI jerb and then have an additional 80k + interest tax bomb after 25 years (but as you allude to the law might change by then). Def. a +EV call imo. GL OP. I'm rooting for you. Sorry about your situation. Head up. Work out. Shine your shoes.

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manofjustice
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:45 pm

You have an A3 clerkship. Perhaps starting your post with "I'm unemployed, help me" was a poor choice.
Last edited by manofjustice on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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rayiner
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:45 pm

manofjustice wrote:You have to be a troll. I am sorry, but the legal market is not so bad that anyone without a serious problem cannot get a job out of CCN having placed in the top 10%. Give us a break.


It's not unbelievable enough to automatically call troll. E.g. someone who did DOJ SLIP 2L summer and assumed they'd get a clerkship but struck out on the clerkship market because it's fucking competitive and struck out at DOJ because they didn't hire anybody this year.

manofjustice: top 10% at CCN isn't some magic badge you get to wear around and have people throw jobs at you. Until you get coif, firms don't even really know you're in the top 10%. And there is a strong "damaged goods" presumption for someone still unemployed with those grades.
Last edited by rayiner on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:48 pm

OP- in case it helps, we are talking about NYU Tax.

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rayiner
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby rayiner » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP- in case it helps, we are talking about NYU Tax.


Do you want to do tax?

Anonymous User
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:51 pm

OP- sorry if I was unclear, I said I think I will get a clerkship, not that I have one.

abc12345675
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Re: High debt v. even higher debt

Postby abc12345675 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP- in case it helps, we are talking about NYU Tax.


If it makes you feel better, I know a guy who was below median at Hofstra after 1L, rocked it 2nd and 3rd year, got into NYU LLM and now does biglaw.




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